A Defense of Moderates and Liberalism

[Zorin Industries 0]

In all seriousnes, I feel that you are right on the money, especially regarding the Israel/Palestine situation

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

Erm, better I think, but lose the smiley.

 

Kotzenjunge

Hates Emoticons

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Show me where that's in the Constitution

Oh, now you remember the Constitution... well done lad. Yes, we have one. Have you read it yet? Along with the Declaration of Independence, it explicitly espouses certain inalienable rights common to all humanity. Whenever tyrants violate those rights, America is both entitled and obliged to oppose them. We are an example to the world, and it is our duty to uphold the principles on which this country was founded.

 

leave the fucking church out of the state, it has no place there

Nope, it doesn't. But certain principles - such as liberty, justice, truth, and fighting for what is right - are common to both.

 

Just cut the pretentious bullshit and speak to me normally.

Says the boy who falsely attributed a nauseatingly smug and self-righteous phrase to Voltaire, of all people.

 

Feel free to shoot me as some kind of heathen, but [usama bin Laden] is totally convinced that he is correct.

Look around you. You're in the United States. We don't kill people for being misguided or moral degenerates or dissenters; we kill them when and only when they kill others.

Of course, if you were in Saudi Arabia, things would be different. Does that tell you anything?

 

I suppose we should kill any Arab who delights at our misfortune the same way we'll delight in blowing away Iraq.

There's a difference: we don't take "delight" in war. We go to war when we must. And we as a nation do not celebrate the deaths of even our enemies.

It is our enemies who do that. There were countless celebrations of 9/11 throughout Moslem communities worldwide. Show me even one celebration in the United States of our countless victories. There are none. We celebrate only the end of wars, and we remember our dead. We do not shout "God is great" as we think of those who died - on any side.

 

Once again, no one is evil as long as they believe totally that what they're doing is right and have no doubts about it

So, in your mind, delusion is good, or at least morally neutral, and hypocrisy is a worse crime than torture, murder, genocide, and enslavement. Even Hitler wasn't evil according to this. He was sincere, after all. No one can argue that. He passionately pursued the extinction of the Jews. He believed in what he was doing. Not even the skinheads dispute that.

 

think about being considered an evil American yourself by a common Moslem

I have, many times. And as I stated in another thread, I can imagine no greater honour than being targeted and vilified by the evil and the corrupt and the unrighteous.

 

if you did [have the means to kill millions] you'd be seeing to it that that same thing was happening to these "evil" Arabs as we speak.

No. Not millions. Just the few who commit crimes of terrorism.

 

no, [usama bin Laden] is not evil.

 

This I shall allow to stand by itself as an example of your thoughts, and, more broadly, as an example of the multicultural relativism which poses a more serious threat to this country than even terrorists and the regimes which support them.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

I'm not trying to be right or wrong, I'm just saying what I think should be done or avoided or whatever in my own estimations. I don't think of my standpoints as good or bad, they're just standpoints. I'll defend them though, simply for the same reason one doesn't allow one to throw dog shit on their new car.

 

Kotzenjunge

Just Another Dumb Talking Head

[Zorin Industries 0]

There's a difference: we don't take "delight" in war. We go to war when we must. And we as a nation do not celebrate the deaths of even our enemies.

I would severly doubt this. I remember hearing about the famous headline in The Sun newspaper "Kill an Argie, win a metro" during the Falklands War.

 

War fever DOES descend into the masses baying for blood.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

And I've seen wartime posters urging people to kill the Huns. So what? War fever is a completely different matter - and I hope you're not saying that The Sun represents the mindset of the majority of the British people. Show me one celebration - as in, annual commemoration, rejoicing, delight in death - of World War II. Or the Crusades, which Moslems are still upset about. Or any other war in history.

 

It is simply not part of our values.

[Guest HecateRose]

I have to agree that to some extent people do enjoy squashing their enemies, I don't know if I could say they "delight" in them, and it is definitely not to the extreme in most cases where the general American public would praise God for it, but to some level, people are happy knowing we are taking out the "bad" guys

[Zorin Industries 0]

I would see it as a lesser form of what happens in the Middle East, but the similarity is there.

 

Just because we are more civilized dosen't mean that the base urges are not there

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

Common to all humanity in this country. I'd like to know what parts of the Declaration of Independence can be taken as legally binding also.

 

Liberty, Justice, and Truth are not common to any religion, as they are all varied and tailored to their own needs in a crutch for their own shortcomings.

 

And you quote the fucking Bible. Who's worse here?

 

Yes, it tells me that Saudi Arabia kills people who disagree with the masses.

 

How did I know you'd bring Hitler into this? Geez, you think the right-winger would love him.

 

Unrighteous. Maybe if they accept Jesus it'll all be better. In theory at least.

 

In your mind, any Moslem who hates America and its way of life is a radical one. Also, you've said radical Moslems are terrorists. So you want to kill millions. Might as well admit it, since that line of logic was flawed, that you hold a grudge against the Arab world and wouldn't mind seeing us turn the region into glass except for Israel.

 

Damn multiculturality. Stuff like that could actually help me become enlightened and allow contrapuntal views into my mind. Pretty funny that you think that someone with a willingness to accept the alternatives, no matter how radical they may seem, as a threat to this country. Imagine how the founding fathers would feel about this. Yes, I can pull the blind nationalist card too.

 

Isn't it great when someone pretty much ignores your points and just attacks you?

 

Once again, I stand by my beliefs and will continue to no-sell your attempts to undermine them with your colorful language disguised as flames. Better get used to it, as I'm not leaving this time.

 

Will she dissect this also, in an attempt to get the last word, or will she tell everyone that I should be committed to an institution?

 

The answer: take me out back and shoot me, since mental institutions don't exist in the glorious right-wing world, and the insane are put in prisons or killed "for their own good."

 

I think I'll put that last point of yours as my subtitle, to show how silly it is. You won't mind, will you Lass?

 

Kotzenjunge

Is a Threat to the United States

[Guest HecateRose]

If the American public was indifferent about the cause, nothing would have happened, on some level the American public wanted something done, and when it was done (or at least reciprocated on some level I should say) the American people were happy about it

[Guest Cancer Marney]

I'd like to know what parts of the Declaration of Independence can be taken as legally binding also.

It's the document on which the very idea of the United States was built. It represents the values and intent of the Framers. That's binding in a way which extends far beyond legality.

 

you quote the fucking Bible. Who's worse here?

I quote the parts of the Bible that are good. Notice that I don't say anything about stoning anyone to death for wearing mixed fibres or eating shellfish.

 

Maybe if they accept Jesus it'll all be better.

Quite possibly so. At least He'd be an improvement over a Satanically-possessed paedophile.

 

In your mind, any Moslem who hates America and its way of life is a radical one.

Add "and is willing to commit or support murder in any way to fulfill his hatred," and you'll be correct.

There's always a first time.

 

you want to kill millions

Nope. I don't want to kill even one person. But sometimes it's necessary.

 

multiculturality... could actually help me become enlightened and allow contrapuntal views into my mind.

No. It has already rotted your mind.

 

Pretty funny that you think that someone with a willingness to accept the alternatives, no matter how radical they may seem, as a threat to this country.

Oh, I don't think you yourself are a threat to anyone. I don't take an 18 year-old self-proclaimedly "enlightened" boy that seriously. Hmm, have you started shaving yet?

 

Imagine how the founding fathers would feel about this.

My guess is, they'd probably feel that in refusing to condemn the murderer of 3000 of your countrymen as evil, you have become at least brainwashed and marginally evil yourself, if not yet a traitor.

Ever considered changing your name to Mustafa Spoon?

 

Isn't it great when someone pretty much ignores your points and just attacks you?

That's what you've been doing all along. Because you're wrong, and your points aren't defensible. I've addressed the issues constantly, consistently, and substantively, citing points of fact, not opinion, which you can look up in official budgets in the equivalent of the relevant countries' GPOs. You have been demonstrably wrong on every issue. You choose to shriek calumny instead of seeking debate; you whine that you're misrepresented when in fact you have failed to cite even one concrete example of such misrepresentation, and you are unaware of even the basics of current geopolitical realities and the history which created them.

But if you want to turn this into a flamewar, go right ahead. It's simply a sign of your weakness on the issues.

 

I'm not leaving this time.

My my, someone's finally acquired some balls. Too bad you used the muscle mass in your head to form them. Are you sure you won't scamper off whining and yelping like a whipped cur this time?

 

Kotzenjunge Is a Threat to the United States

Don't flatter yourself. The movement that corrupted you is.

 

Will she dissect this also

Bet on it.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

Once again, find me parts of the Declaration that are on the books as law and I'll support that idea.

 

Of course it'll be better if they accept Jesus. Too bad we already called them infidels and stuff.

 

Yes, being open-minded could make it rot. I should shut it to any kind of input, then it'll stay nice and ironically fresh by keeping old ideas.

 

Yes, I have started shaving, and I won't say what I want to on this one, because it'll only prolong this.

 

I condemn it as wrong, not as evil. Because I don't want to call something morally wrong is different than calling something a misdeed. Ooh, a traitor. I love all the ideas I'm getting this morning. Mustafa is a cool name, but alas, I was not named as such. Maybe Vladimir or Adolf would be better.

 

You realize I'm not taking anything you say seriously anymore, right? Well, at least not as it pertains to this discussion. You want to be a backwards dinosaur with a big gun(good old "Blood and Iron," eh?), I want to evolve and move forward with as little violence as possible.

 

You called me a threat yourself. I have no idea what movement I'm a part of. Must be that evil liberal movement that tries its damndest to make sure we don't live in a fascist paradise. Send me a postcard from the Berghof when you get a chance.

 

Kotzenjunge

Thinks Playing With Conservatives is Fun

[Guest Vern Gagne]

Dude, I would never beef with anyone who had Magnum PI in their signature. That show owned when I was a kid beyond all words. Tom Selleck is a god among men. I'd kill him for his car though.

 

Kotzenjunge

Moderate Whore

Magnum's got nothing on Lance White one of the greatest TV characters of all time.

[Zorin Industries 0]

Forgive my ignorance, but whos Lance White?

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Of course it'll be better if they accept Jesus. Too bad we already called them infidels and stuff.

You're confusing Americans with them. Yet again. We don't call them infidels. They call us infidels.

 

I condemn it as wrong, not as evil. Because I don't want to call something morally wrong is different than calling something a misdeed.

Please define precisely the difference between "wrong" and "evil."

 

You called me a threat yourself.

Another bald lie. Here is what I actually said, word for word:

This I shall allow to stand by itself as an example of your thoughts, and, more broadly, as an example of the multicultural relativism which poses a more serious threat to this country than even terrorists and the regimes which support them.

(emphasis added)

Again, if you can't understand the English language and basic sentence structure, it isn't an argument against my position. It's an argument for educational reform.

 

You realize I'm not taking anything you say seriously anymore, right?

Of course. Empty snickering is the last refuge of cowards and liars everywhere, even as they're brought to heel.

 

I want to evolve and move forward with as little violence as possible.

I'd be interested to see how you plan to "evolve" as a fifth aeroplane crashes down on your head.

 

I have no idea what movement I'm a part of.

As I said, don't flatter yourself. You're just another victim.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

We is Christianity about the same time as they took a city we thought we had a right to because someone was born there. We sure fixed that problem... didn't we?

 

Evil has moral implications, and thus can never be concrete. Wrong is in relation to legal matters. A Jainist may think I'm evil to kill the hundreds of gnats who will harry me throughout October here in South Carolina, but it isn't wrong to do.

 

I think you need to review your own devices. Brush up on sarcasm before you bother telling me about sentence structure.

 

Heel, eh? Cowards snicker because they think the just and right and RIGHTEOUS~!(strikes heroic pose with a cape blowing in the wind) are hilarious.

 

When an airplane crashes on my head, I'll be dead and not have to worry about any of this.

 

Damn, I thought calling people victims was the liberal thing to do. I don't think I'm a victim... Well, to drive this total and utter parody even further, I declare myself to be a disenfranchised victim. Where's my handout?

 

Kotzenjunge

Is Still Having Immense Fun

[Guest Cancer Marney]

I don't think I need to add anything more to this. Essentially I just wanted to see you clearly reiterate that "Evil... can never be concrete." That sums up your views nicely, and anyone else who reads this thread can reach his own conclusions.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

Yup, I hope they enjoy my "Overblown Liberal" character. Isn't it fun being worked?

 

Kotzenjunge

Pysched Everyone Out

[Guest Cancer Marney]

If that's what you consider fun. We don't assume "characters" here; we argue seriously about serious subjects. As I've said before, your puerile General Chat gimmicks have no place in this forum. You have simply demonstrated that you're a dishonest, insincere debater.

 

Hope you enjoy the harvest.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

Yeah, god forbid I enjoy myself.

 

Kotzenjunge

Boys Just Wanna Have Fun Too

[Zorin Industries 0]

Shit, you had me convinced.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

Hey, I said I could defend either side as if I were a diehard.

 

Kotzenjunge

Is Apparently Very Convincing

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Incidentally, you might want to keep in mind that assuming a "character" and posting purely in order to provoke a reaction is called trolling, and/or flamebaiting. AFAIK it remains an offense for which you can be banned, even (or perhaps especially) in this folder.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

I think you're just annoyed you got swerved. Don't worry, the first long post of the thread was genuine, but my drive to contradict you no matter what you said ended up reaching extreme farcical levels, and it just spiraled out of control until I couldn't really stand it anymore.

 

Nothing I said was genuine that sounded absurdly stupid(which, according to various people, could be some or all of each post).

 

Kotzenjunge

Penalized for Enjoying the Current Events Folder

[Guest Vern Gagne]

*shakes head*

 

Lance White is Tom Selleck's character on the Rockford Files. If you don't know anything about the Rockford files. Lance was the well liked handsome rich detective who had everything fall into place for him.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

you're just annoyed you got swerved

I'm annoyed that peasants like you are lowering the property values in what is still a fairly nice forum where people earnestly debate and question their core values. This is a place where we come for learning and reasoned discussion, not to play games, raise "post count," or waste each others' time.

 

it just spiraled out of control until I couldn't really stand it anymore

Don't do it again. You haven't been "penalized" yet, but if you keep it up I'll take this to a mod myself.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

Since I've already said I was going to stop, this is really a dead subject.

 

Kotzenjunge

Has Sympathy for the Dead Horse

 

EDIT: I could have sworn I fixed my subtitle. (goes to fix it again)

[Zorin Industries 0]

*shakes head*

 

Lance White is Tom Selleck's character on the Rockford Files. If you don't know anything about the Rockford files. Lance was the well liked handsome rich detective who had everything fall into place for him.

Ah, I don't get to see the Rockford Files that much cause its usually on while im at work.

 

Jim Rockford is great to though

[Guest Mystery Eskimo]

Tom Selleck was in the Rockford Files?!

 

I havn't seen that show for years.

[Guest kkktookmybabyaway]

"I knew very well that it doesn't appear in any of his works because I've actually read them."

 

Out of curiousity, what did you think of Candide? (sp?) Our prof. had a never-ending erection to it and we got into words over it...