A Defense of Moderates and Liberalism

[Guest Cancer Marney]

I liked it, but then I read a decent translation and then in the original French. Many people get the wrong things out of it, though; Voltaire's touch is so sympathetically light that you can easily miss the nuances and the precise direction of his mockery. It's a bit overlong, though, and once you've understood his point there's only the stylistic charm to keep you going - and sometimes the substance of the brutality almost overwhelms even Voltaire's charm.

Personally, I prefer his Letters Concerning the English Nation and the Philosophical Dictionary, as well as the Treatise on Tolerance. The second one is probably my favourite, as it contains the same essential wit as Candide but applies it to a whole range of aspects of the human condition rather than just one easily-destroyed pseudophilosophy. Of course, to be fair, that way of thinking was a lot more prevalent in his time than in ours, so he can be forgiven for belabouring the point.

 

What was your opinion, and what words did you have with your professor?

[Guest danielisthor]

Imagine how the founding fathers would feel about this.

My guess is, they'd probably feel that in refusing to condemn the murderer of 3000 of your countrymen as evil, you have become at least brainwashed and marginally evil yourself, if not yet a traitor.

Really depends on which founding father you want to go by.

 

George Washington, " Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European Ambition, Rivalship, Interest, Humour, or Caprice?

Tis our true policy to steer clear of permanent Alliances, with any portion of the foreign world. So far... as we are now at liberty to do it."

 

 

Thomas Jefferson and his Federalists wanted to side with France during the Napolean Wars.

 

Alexander Hamilton backed Washington.

 

Anyways, our founding fathers would defend this nation to the end. We fought an undeclared naval war with France, as they were seizing US commercial ships at will during their war with Britain and we re-acted in kind, taking and seizing French ships.

 

___________________________________________________________

 

As far as seperation of church and state goes: The constitution only states that:

 

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

 

As far as i am concerned, that means that there will be no national religion, it will not force any religion on its citizens and its citizens have the right to worship any god they wish without persecution. It does not say the ACLU can stop a city hall from putting up holiday decorations of christian/hebrew values. It does not force you or stop you from saying "under god" in the pledge, it does not stop nor endorse a prayer service before a public high school football game.

 

Our forefathers did not want a national religion, but they wanted "God" as a part of this great nation. "In God We Trust".

[Guest HecateRose]

I heard that the phrase "under God" wasn't even and original part of the pledge. Is that true or not (I think I heard it through an interview on headline news or some other blip news show, not sure which though)

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Yes, it's true. It was instituted in 1954 as a knee-jerk reaction to the Communist threat and the atheism that characterised it. The original pledge (which is the one I prefer, and say) was written in 1892, and read thus: "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."

[Guest Slapnuts00]

I heard that the phrase "under God" wasn't even and original part of the pledge. Is that true or not (I think I heard it through an interview on headline news or some other blip news show, not sure which though)

yup, it was added back in '50s I believe when we were fighting communism, since I guess the communists were godless...

[Guest HecateRose]

Just wanted to make sure I was informed correctly, and since it is true, if it's such a big deal saying it in, for example, schools, why don't we just remove the words "under God" and be done with it? I don't know, maybe some places have done that, I only get meager information on such things once they move out of the major news catagory out here

[Guest Cancer Marney]

I think it should be removed, but I don't think leaving it there is a big deal at all. It's already illegal to force anyone to say it under any circumstances, and you can modify it as you wish. You don't have to say "under God" if you don't want to.

[Guest HecateRose]

Maybe, and this is just an off the wall thought here, it would be best to eliminate the words official, but leave in a pause for all of those who wish to enter those words in thought? That way, those who wished to say it, could (I mean people have silent prayers, so it is feasible for them to believe God heard them), but those who did not wish the thought to be "push on them" (or more or less to avoid lawsuits) they wouldn't even have to hear it. Maybe it's a little idealistic to think that could work, it's just a thought

[Guest Cancer Marney]

I think that as long as we tolerate the culture of victimhood enshrined by the left, someone will always sue over something. Take out "God," and someone will sue to get "indivisible" removed. After all, the idea of the right to self-determination, to oppose unjust governments ("The powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the people of the United States, may be resumed by them, whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression" - ratification of the Constitution by the State of Virginia), is the very reason why our country exists today. The case for removing "one Nation indivisible" is at least as strong as the case for removing "under God."

 

You can't say so much as one word without offending someone. Trying to rewrite the pledge by committee so that it offends no one and caters to every possible belief system would be an exercise in utter futility.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

I never said "Under god" when I had to recite it.

[Guest HecateRose]

My point on that is just that since it isn't an original portion of the pledge, but one that is normal for a few generations we should consider removing it officially, and going back to the original (which was just fine without it) but allow the space for people to express themselves silently

[Guest Cancer Marney]

It would make no difference at all.

[Guest Samurai_Goat]

Well, I admit to thinking pretty poorly to people who would sue to get "under God" taken out. If an atheist burst into flame that's spreads into a veritable tornado of apocalyptic hellfire and brimstone, a whirling deverish of pain, torment, and dispair (such as forcing all VCRs to be set to the flashing 12:00 permanently), well, then I'll be all sorts of in support of a lawsuit. I am defiantly against twisting tornados of terrible thingys that hurt. However, until that day, if you really are that offended by two words, then Do as Agent of Oblivion Does, and skip it. Use the time to organize your thoughts toward something useful, like thinking of ways to get the local Christmas play banned. (I look into the sun, it’s rays burn my eyes….)

[Guest HecateRose]

I mean, I know of schools that have banned Halloween because it's, and this is not my opinion, "satanic." I sure it's just to idealistic to think that one day, everyone will respect everyone else's religious beliefs, and let some traditions stand. Who knows, it's late here and I might be rambling, but oh well, just letting my fingers fly over the keys. Maybe on some levels I am idealistic, but that's not all bad

[Guest Spaceman Spiff]

"Under God" will never be removed from the pledge. No politician will *ever* support such a measure, and any one that does will be eaten alive by his constituency. Not to mention the Catholic Church getting involved, and the religious right getting all up in arms about "turning America into a God-less, immoral society."

 

Myself, I'm indifferent to the issue, but if forced to take a side, I'd say take it out.

[Guest DrTom]

I don't say the "under God" when thst part of the Plesdge comes up. As an atheist, I have no problem with it being there. though: we can't compel anyone to say the Pledge at all, and this is a nation founded on Christian principles. God is a part of the culture, like it or not.

[Guest Some Guy]

As far as seperation of church and state goes: The constitution only states that:

 

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

 

As far as i am concerned, that means that there will be no national religion, it will not force any religion on its citizens and its citizens have the right to worship any god they wish without persecution. It does not say the ACLU can stop a city hall from putting up holiday decorations of christian/hebrew values. It does not force you or stop you from saying "under god" in the pledge, it does not stop nor endorse a prayer service before a public high school football game.

 

Our forefathers did not want a national religion, but they wanted "God" as a part of this great nation. "In God We Trust".

Thank you, at least I didn't have do this part.

 

The idea of a "wall" between chruch and state was popularized by Jefferson who was in France when the Constitution was drafted and further more he said it 14 years after the thing was written. Justice Renquist wrote a very long dissenting opinion on a Church/state case, which I can't remember the name and don't feel like going out to my car to get teh book to find out right now, it's 2:35 am.

All this "God only equals Christian" stuff is stupid. Doesn't every religion have a God? If so what's the fucking problem?

Don't 85-90% of the people in this country believe in God? If so who the fuck am I to say tht because I don't, that they can't have a nativity scene on the common or put up a Manora(sp?), or whatever?

What happened to "tolerance" and "multi-culturalism"?

Or is it that you can only be tolerant of other's cultures if they aren't white Christians? Seems that way to me.

When Santa is getting protested then you know there's a problem.

[Guest MrRant]

I remember when we had Christmas plays in Elementary School from kindergarden to about 3rd grade (about 1988-1992) and then by the time I got to middle school it had been bastardized to Winter Plays were Santa was NO WHERE to be seen.

 

I hate those PC minded fucks whose only goal in life is to make sure that the 1 child that doesn't celebrate a holiday in a school of hundreds doesn't get offended. Fuck them. That's why myself not being overly religious may send my daughter to a Christian school so she can have Christmas plays because I'm not going to let these PC fucks try and screw with MY beliefs. I'm offended by this and I don't see anyone coming to MY aid.

[Guest kkktookmybabyaway]

"What was your opinion, and what words did you have with your professor?"

 

Eh, from what I can remember, my prof. was saying how funny and great the story was and I disagreed with him totally -- I asked him to explain why certain passages were as wonderful as he said they were, and he couldn't. We also had a big fight over Crime and Punishment later that semester. I did like Candide though because it was short, and I read it going home on the bus the night it was assigned and finished it up returning to school the next morning. I also liked Crime and Punishment because a buddy at work had to write a report about it for his class, and I did it for him. It took one night, he got an A and I got $20.

 

"No politician will *ever* support such a measure, and any one that does will be eaten alive by his constituency."

 

In Berkley, the constituency will probably line up around the block to toss the salad of their congressperson if he/she/it ever created a bill pertaining to the aforementioned issue you're talking about...

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

Ah, Berkley. Something tells me I was meant to live there. I'd better bring a club to crack the skulls of the obnoxious hardcores though.

 

Kotzenjunge

Crackin' Some Skulls

[Guest Olympic Slam]

I remember when we had Christmas plays in Elementary School from kindergarden to about 3rd grade (about 1988-1992) and then by the time I got to middle school it had been bastardized to Winter Plays were Santa was NO WHERE to be seen.

 

I hate those PC minded fucks whose only goal in life is to make sure that the 1 child that doesn't celebrate a holiday in a school of hundreds doesn't get offended. Fuck them. That's why myself not being overly religious may send my daughter to a Christian school so she can have Christmas plays because I'm not going to let these PC fucks try and screw with MY beliefs. I'm offended by this and I don't see anyone coming to MY aid.

In the California school districts where my father teaches, Christimas vacation isn't even called that anymore. It's now "Winter Recess."

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

It's been called Winter Holiday here as long as I can remember, and that's Kindergarten on. It didn't start in the early 90s here, it was already in place. Kinda funny that I live in an extremely conservative state. I always said Charleston was the one spot of civilization, and it's proven time and time again, even though our mayor is a virtual king.

 

Kotzenjunge

Not as Out of Place as he Thought

[Guest kkktookmybabyaway]

"In the California school districts where my father teaches, Christimas vacation isn't even called that anymore. It's now "Winter Recess."

 

Years ago, the city of Pittsburgh called the Xmas season "Sparkle Season." I don't give a crap either way since I'm all about the suburbs, but thought I'd add some fuel to your fire...

[Guest MrRant]

They now call it Winter Vacation here. Fuckers.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

Yeah, now if only they'd change Spring Break to "Easter Pre-Game Vacation."

 

Kotzenjunge

Doesn't Care What they Call It

[Guest MrRant]

I think they should call it Resurrection Week

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

Yeah, that'd get a rise out of the non-Christians though.

 

Kotzenjunge

Couldn't Resist Making the Joke

[Guest MrRant]

That's the point. More entertainment for my dollar. Screw Easter egg hunts. We can have the kids looking for Christ's ghost. You could hide it in a tree... or behind a rock.

 

MrRant,

Gets entertainment out of making the PC get angry.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

My first SmartMarks column will refer to a great idea for a religious reality TV show. It'll be on SmarkTalk too, if they'll let me do it.

 

Kotzenjunge

Always Thinking of Ways to Make Fun of Religion

[Guest MrRant]

I see... so SmarkTalk is #2 in your priority list eh?