Guest Hogan Made Wrestling Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 "WWE is looking to adjust its product to promote a new, fresh style that wouldn’t seem as stale. With the proliferation and success of MMA and mixed MMA/wrestling promotions in Japan, WWE is trying to make their in-ring action seem more realistic. WWE agents, who are largely responsible for laying out matches, have been instructing wrestlers to use more submission holds to get them over with WWE crowds. Interesting, Eric Bischoff mocked Shawn Stasiak and D'Lo Brown for using an arm bar on Raw last week, which raised some eyebrows backstage. However, there isn't heat on Bischoff for mocking armbars, which wrestlers were told to use more, because his promos are largely scripted by the writers. Credit: Pro Wrestling Torch Newsletter I think this a good idea as long as they don't go the full Inoki-route of having shooters beat wrestlers in wrestling matches and other crap like that. Keeping things on the mat will have way more staying power than doing spotfests, anyway.
Guest Ironman Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 Looks like they want Shamrock back. Heh.
Guest Nevermortal Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 So they've decided to change to...what's that style again? Oh, Boring, that's right.
Guest Red Hot Thumbtack In The Eye Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 I think this a good idea as long as they don't go the full Inoki-route of having shooters beat wrestlers in wrestling matches and other crap like that. Keeping things on the mat will have way more staying power than doing spotfests, anyway. Would they really want to have RVD trying to convince the humanoids that he should be making people tap instead of flippy flopping? It's a nice idea but i don't think they need a downside to their style that is quite that deep.
Guest FeArHaVoC Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 If this true, then Benoit & Angle should really come out looking like Gods.
Guest Red Hot Thumbtack In The Eye Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 FeArHaVoC Posted on Jul 30 2002, 02:43 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If this true, then Benoit & Angle should really come out looking like Gods. ya and that would last for about 7.23 seconds. and we all know who would put a stop to that. bleh ya that was lame....i guess im not as clever a hhhater as i thought.
Guest cabbageboy Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 Problem with this is: no one will tap. It's that easy. How can you get stuff like the crossface or the ankle lock over when there's no way a high tier wrestler will ever agree to tap out and look like a pussy?
Guest FeArHaVoC Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 You could always "Montreal" their ass'.
Guest Red Hot Thumbtack In The Eye Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 cabbageboy Posted on Jul 30 2002, 02:53 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Problem with this is: no one will tap. It's that easy. How can you get stuff like the crossface or the ankle lock over when there's no way a high tier wrestler will ever agree to tap out and look like a pussy? In an ideal world the workers would know that they most likely will have a chance to get their cred. back afterwards.
Guest Fook_Hing_Ho Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 I think they alluded to it on raw with Flair telling Jeff Hardy he doesn't need to keep killing himself just to please Bischoff. If the fans feel that supporting those deadly moves makes Bischoff happy, there's an excellent reason in place to start wrestling a more mat-based style without losing the fans' acceptance.
Guest Nevermortal Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 No one ever ever taps cleanly anymore...Booker T tapped last Monday, and that was a goddamn rarity.
Guest Steviekick Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 If they want to use more submission oriented wrestling, they should use it effectively, like have each wrestler have a finisher and a submission, like Chris Benoit with the crossface and the flying headbut, and Kurt Angle with the olympic slam and the ankle lock. What would Hogan's submission be?
Guest notJames Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 I think it's a good way to build suspense in a match, as long as the submission moves 1) look convincing or at least innovative, 2) are sold by both the wrestlers and commentators as such, and 3) actually lead to wins. The whole "We'll hit each other's finishers ad nauseum until one of us wins via rollup" thing is getting played out. If they can successfully transition a solid submission base into the guys that can really work them, then I think it can work. A good influx of submission wrestling is what's needed, but they shouldn't go overboard with it. They should also let the more innovative high flyers do what they do (RVD, Rey Rey), and keep submission moves away from guys who simply wouldn't look convincing (Spike, Hogan). Then there are guys that have proven to be able to do both (Chavo, Noble). Long story short, if they do this slowly, educating the fans to appreciate this pace, it could be successful.
Guest LooseCannon Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 If you're going to use submissions, then the opponent has to tap immediately. There's none of this struggling and trying to fight the pain when it comes to real submission maneuvers. Most wrestling "submissions" tend to hurt less the longer you're in the hold anyway, as opposed to the legit submissions you see in mma. The way WWe uses submissions is just unrealistic, but I doubt it'll ever change, so I'd almost rather they not use them at all.
Guest thebigjig Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 If you're going to use submissions, then the opponent has to tap immediately. There's none of this struggling and trying to fight the pain when it comes to real submission maneuvers. Most wrestling "submissions" tend to hurt less the longer you're in the hold anyway, as opposed to the legit submissions you see in mma. The way WWe uses submissions is just unrealistic, but I doubt it'll ever change, so I'd almost rather they not use them at all. I don't see that much of a problem with "fighting the pain" and struggling for the ropes. It builds the drama of the match and gets the fans into it, especially if the person fighting is a face. If you take out that and make the wrestlers tap immediatly for "realism" then you've gotta take out the fake punches, whipping into ropes, kneedrops onto the head, and practically anything else that is remotely similar to the pro wrestling style
Guest notJames Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 If you're going to use submissions, then the opponent has to tap immediately. There's none of this struggling and trying to fight the pain when it comes to real submission maneuvers. Most wrestling "submissions" tend to hurt less the longer you're in the hold anyway, as opposed to the legit submissions you see in mma. The way WWe uses submissions is just unrealistic, but I doubt it'll ever change, so I'd almost rather they not use them at all. I think you're looking at it from too realistic a view. Sure, actual submission moves are supposed to make you tap right away. But we're dealing with pro wrestling, where drama is the key. Sure, you can have guys tap immediately to establish the severity of the move early on, but once it's established, it helps develop the story that the wrestlers in the ring are working, i.e., who can tough it out to the bitter end. Yeah, lately all submission moves have been watered down to glorified restholds (especially the AngleLock), but if the WW_ could just tweak it so that they were legitimate (or at least legitimate-looking), it might just work out. Memo to self: must learn to type faster. (Damn you big jig, and your quicker posting skillz
Guest LooseCannon Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 I know what you guys are saying, but personally those moments don't build drama for me anymore. It ruins my suspension of disbelief, and I just think to myself "oh just hurry up and get to the ropes already so you can get on with the match."
Guest Whatmaniac Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 Didn't WCW also try to push a more submission-oriented style of wrestling back in 1997 with Chris Beniot and Meng? And haven't both WCW and the WWF conditioned their fans to think that tapping out is a cowardly, enfemmite thing to do? The WWF is going to find this new style to be a hard sell with the marks. It will take years to reeducate them.
Guest Nevermortal Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 I know what you guys are saying, but personally those moments don't build drama for me anymore. It ruins my suspension of disbelief, and I just think to myself "oh just hurry up and get to the ropes already so you can get on with the match." Exactly! Everyone, and I mean everyone, whence locked in a submission nowadays always makes the ropes eventually. Submissions are becoming about as played out as the friggin ladder match.
Guest notJames Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 I tend to think that way too, especially when guys like the Rock and Undertaker are in the ring. But I guess I just like watching them bust out cool, innovative submission moves with stupid names like the "Trailer Hitch" and the "Figure Four Edge Lock". You know, stuff I can try out on my wife...
Guest Nevermortal Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 I tend to think that way too, especially when guys like the Rock and Undertaker are in the ring. But I guess I just like watching them bust out cool, innovative submission moves with stupid names like the "Trailer Hitch" and the "Figure Four Edge Lock". You know, stuff I can try out on my wife... You should try the Tombstone Bearhug!
Guest Smell the ratings!!! Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 Didn't WCW also try to push a more submission-oriented style of wrestling back in 1997 with Chris Beniot and Meng? i don't even know how to respond to that. But what you guys are saying is all true. Right now submissions, even "finishers" are totally worthless. If this new style lasts for more than 2 weeks, which I doubt, it won't work because: 1. no one will want to to tap to holds, *cough*Rock*cough* because... 2. the current WWE conventional wisdom says only pussies tap out. And... 3. fans have also been taught to not only be bored douring holds, but also to actually scream "boring" as loudly as possible. Not to mention... 4. A large majority of the roster blows at mat wrestling. Especially those higher on the card.
Guest Lei Tong Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 I don't think it'll really get over with the fans. Much like the problems Inoki eventually faced, if people wanted to see groung based, submission fighting, wouldn't they just go with the real thing? IMO, I say they should just stick to their guns.
Guest wolverine Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 I think they should go to a 100% shoot-style product. No more running or climbing the ropes. No more pinfalls, just submission and KO's. That would kick ass.
Guest Shaved Bear Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 shouldnt they let everyone work their own styles so everyone can perform to the best of their abilities
Guest Nezbyte Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 I think they should go to a 100% shoot-style product. No more running or climbing the ropes. No more pinfalls, just submission and KO's. That would kick ass. ... Yeah ... Or it would be the most boring thing since ... EVER.
Guest Whatmaniac Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 Didn't WCW also try to push a more submission-oriented style of wrestling back in 1997 with Chris Beniot and Meng? i don't even know how to respond to that. It was during their spring feud where they did a couple of death matches. WCW was trying to get the crippler crossface over as a legitimate finishing move. The involvement of Meng was probably a factor in the style not getting over. During this time period, there was actually an infamous incident over this type of submission wrestling. The Barbarian had thrown a hissy fit backstage over having to tap out cleanly to the crossface and subsequently roughed up Beniot so badly that he had to be hospitalized. At the same time, William Regal was involved in a feud with Ultimo Dragon over the TV title and that match featured a lot of submission wrestling as well.
Guest Nevermortal Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 I think they should go to a 100% shoot-style product. No more running or climbing the ropes. No more pinfalls, just submission and KO's. That would kick ass. ... Yeah ... Or it would be the most boring thing since ... EVER. lmao.
Guest razazteca Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 "WWE is looking to adjust its product to promote a new, fresh style that wouldn’t seem as stale. With the proliferation and success of MMA and mixed MMA/wrestling promotions in Japan, WWE is trying to make their in-ring action seem more realistic. does this mean a sudden influex of UFC or Pride fighters in WWE? Will anybody ever submit to Tajeri's Tranajula?
Guest notJames Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 Will anybody ever submit to Tajeri's Tranajula? No, because it's an illegal hold (rope-assisted).
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