Guest notJames Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 You should try the Tombstone Bearhug! NICE~!
Guest notJames Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 a Tombstone Bearhug?? Read between the lines, Shaved Bear... Better yet, read earlier in the post. You'll get it (I hope)...
Guest RickyChosyu Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 You know, after so many people were bitching and moaning about "Angle and Brock having a potentially-awesome amature match" people sure turned on the idea quickly. I can't name one really great match the WWE style has produced this year. I think a change might be needed. Submision wrestling isn't for everyone, but I think this is the next logical route that needs to be taken to help evolve the wrestling business. If submision holds actually having meaning and wrestlers being forced use holds effectively is borring, I'd hate to think what the explanation behind the current WWE wrestling style is.
Guest RickyB Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 shouldnt they let everyone work their own styles so everyone can perform to the best of their abilities Definatly. I Wrestle in the British indies and I know how Wrestler's spend ages perfecting their OWN style of Wrestling. Being asked to change it makes no sence, I know people who have spent 15 years working on their own style so that they stand out from other Wrestlers. Why ask them to seem the same as everyone else? PS - I don't know about people not tapping out, didn't Hogan tap out cleanly to Kurt Angle?
Guest RickyChosyu Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 shouldnt they let everyone work their own styles so everyone can perform to the best of their abilities Definatly. I Wrestle in the British indies and I know how Wrestler's spend ages perfecting their OWN style of Wrestling. Being asked to change it makes no sence, I know people who have spent 15 years working on their own style so that they stand out from other Wrestlers. Why ask them to seem the same as everyone else? PS - I don't know about people not tapping out, didn't Hogan tap out cleanly to Kurt Angle? It seems that was a one-time thing, because the move as shat on a few weeks later against Taker. Angle had the hold on him about four times and Taker kept making the ropes, but when Angle got the Triangle Choke on him he tapped in four seconds. The Triangle Choke hasn't been used since, and the Anklelocke looked terrible as a result. Bye bye submision wrestling.
Guest godthedog Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 the "new" submission-based wrestling isn't gonna do dick if guys won't get it over. case in point: benoit/rvd last night. benoit worked the shoulder through the whole match, put rvd in the crossface TWICE, and he still didn't tap. not only that, rvd didn't even bother with anything remotely resembling selling the arm after the match. i don't know if i should only attribute this to rvd's shitty long-term selling ability, or if this is indicative of most of the roster. you have to make the effort to, you know, make it look like a legitimate threat. sorry, that just really pissed me off last night. austin did the same thing at the calgary raw match last year, & i hated him for 3 months.
Guest cabbageboy Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 I think the reason that submission stuff doesn't get over all that well is because everyone knows that there is a counter to anything. When watching Angle use the ankle lock it is too easy to just say "his opponent should just use the free leg to escape." It should be noted that this sort of thing has gone on for years (guys not wanting to tap). Bret Hart was WWF champ 5 times, yet the only time he won the title with his actual finisher The Sharpshooter was against Flair. Other times he won with rollups and run ins, etc.
Guest RickyChosyu Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 case in point: benoit/rvd last night. benoit worked the shoulder through the whole match, put rvd in the crossface TWICE, and he still didn't tap. not only that, rvd didn't even bother with anything remotely resembling selling the arm after the match. i don't know if i should only attribute this to rvd's shitty long-term selling ability, or if this is indicative of most of the roster. you have to make the effort to, you know, make it look like a legitimate threat. sorry, that just really pissed me off last night. austin did the same thing at the calgary raw match last year, & i hated him for 3 months. Agreed, but it goes back even further. The Rock/Benoit feud was what really killed the Crossface, because up until that point it was thought of as death. Rock stayed in it for ages and never tapped, and the hold never really gained that same threatening feel to it after that. Angle's Anklelocke has the same story to it. The closest they have come to actually getting submisions over like that was durring the Angle/Benoit feud last year, where they actually managed to get submisions off of Cross Arm Breakers, something I thought would never happen in the WWF.
Guest RavishingRickRudo Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 The Wwf needs just a single wrestler to get submissions over. Have a 'shooter' debut (or just use Kurt Angle) and have him use arm bars, key locks, leg bars, ankle locks, chokes, etc to win his matches WITH A QUICK TAP. Here is how you get over tapping; Say the wrestler taps out to fight for another day. It doesn't make them a pussy it makes them smart. So when the time comes for a title match THEN you can do the dramatic 'reach-for-the-ropes' deal because in a title match there are no other days because 'this is the day'. So when you push a submission wrestler and that wrestler gets over (fans like something new, right? RVD, Tajiri are just two examples of the fans cheering something OTHER than the Wwf style - so by that logic the shooter should get over) - submission wrestling should get over. I would love to see the UFC or PRIDE work a deal with the Wwf. I can't see how it would hurt either of them. Say PRIDE teams up with the Wwf, they get a rub and get wrestling fans interested along with fight fans. They hold their PPVs, and by the kick-ass nature of their product become successful. The Wwf, by extention, becomes successful as well and have found their new WCW to compete with.
Guest Brian Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 Well, the story actually just said that they wanted wrestlers to grab more holds during the matches in an attenpt to slow down the pace of the matches.
Guest Flyboy Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 Well, the story actually just said that they wanted wrestlers to grab more holds during the matches in an attenpt to slow down the pace of the matches. I think RVD/Benoit would be an example of that, wouldn't it?
Guest Angle-plex Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 Do you guys think Triple H would try to hold down Vanderlei Silva? That would be interesting.
Guest Goodear Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 God, I just couldn't care less about this whole "lets get submissions over" movement. I really don't want the WWE to become the UFC or PRIDE, because 1) I don't like shootfighting and 2) because wrestling is still more popular. It would be like the NFL deciding that it needs to be more like pro lacrosse. You know who had a submission finisher back in the day? Ric Flair. You know how many times it didn't get the actual submission? About a million. Was the hold still over? You betcha. So don't try and tell me that Angle and Benoit not getting immediate tap outs is somehow hurting them. No one got as many tap outs back in the day as these guys get now. And also don't try to tell me people shoiuldn't be countering and escaping these holds either. Since Benoit always uses the crossface, people should know its coming and be prepared to get out of it. That makes sense. Having Benoit 'uncle' everyone when he's not that over does not.
Guest Lei Tong Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 I really hope WWE stays far away from the actual MMA orginizations. IMO, they're two very different beasts, and just because I like them both doesn't mean they should be combined.
Guest LesnarLunatic Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 BattlWWE will not last. Too many egos don't want to look bad with a submission style. plus, the fans are idiots. Shoot-style works in Japan, where they can stand this. Not America, where the fans are impatient.
Guest Austin3164life Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 If they want to use more submission oriented wrestling, they should use it effectively, like have each wrestler have a finisher and a submission, like Chris Benoit with the crossface and the flying headbut, and Kurt Angle with the olympic slam and the ankle lock. What would Hogan's submission be? The side-hedlock of DOOM. In all seriousness, that is a good idea. Austin had the Stunner but also the Million Dollar Dream that would come up in big matchups. Angle has the Olympic Slam and the Ankle Lock. It creates another dimension for the wrestler to build psychology on. Instead of Angle repeatedly having to work on the leg to set up to ankle lock, he can work the back as well and it would make sense since he has two finishers. I think that's a great idea.
Guest Will Scarlet Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 They really do need to make submissions more effective if they want to go to a more submission style. Like the Walls of Jericho, why should I care about that move? When was the last time anyone tapped to it in an actual match? How is it suspenseful to watch, say the Rock, struggle to the ropes to escape the move if he has never tapped to it before? Same thing with the Anglelock. I have seen people in that move for what it seemed like several minutes, and they never tapped to it. How am I supposed to believe a move is painful if somebody can be in it for a few minutes, then get out of it, then get caught back into it, and still not tap? At least do a pass out finish or have the ref call the match or something because I just cannot see how a move can be considered painful if guys can last through several minutes of pain in it, and it makes guys who do tap to the move immediately look like pussies for not fighting through the move. Heck, if the anklelock is designed to "break an ankle," then shouldn't being it for several minutes do just that? The longer it's on, the more it seems to be nothing more than a glorified massage. I do hope they go with more submission based stuff because I have always kind of liked submission moves. I just hope they do it right.
Guest LJSexay Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 Just Bring Shamrock back. yay, I'd be happy.
Guest Angle-plex Posted July 30, 2002 Report Posted July 30, 2002 Shamrock is fighting Tito Ortiz in November, so he won't be coming back until then.
Guest RickyChosyu Posted July 31, 2002 Report Posted July 31, 2002 You know who had a submission finisher back in the day? Ric Flair. You know how many times it didn't get the actual submission? About a million. Was the hold still over? You betcha. So don't try and tell me that Angle and Benoit not getting immediate tap outs is somehow hurting them. No one got as many tap outs back in the day as these guys get now. And also don't try to tell me people shoiuldn't be countering and escaping these holds either. Since Benoit always uses the crossface, people should know its coming and be prepared to get out of it. That makes sense. Having Benoit 'uncle' everyone when he's not that over does not. I'm shocked that you managed to forget the years and years of everyone tapping to that move to make a credible finisher and an instant heat-drawing move by the time Flair had popularized it. Shocked, I say. Getting Benoit over when he's not over doesn't make sense? So, by your definition, wrestlers who are already over should be using submisions to get over? Catch-22's are not your friend. The Crossface and Anklelocke never had more credibility than when Benoit and Angle were getting submisions off of them all the time. It's one thing to counter a hold, it's another to sit in the hold for two minutes and then make the ropes. That's just as bad as Hogan shaking off everyone's finisher and waving his finger, because it shows the hold isn't good enough to actually work. The point is, for a hold to really get over with the fans, and wrestlers need to not only sell the pain of it, but the panic of being put in such a dangerous hold by taping instantly to save them both the pain and possible injury. Then, when someone sits in the hold and fights it off, it actually means something, like in Flair's days as NWA champion with the Figuer Four.
Guest mister foozel Posted July 31, 2002 Report Posted July 31, 2002 If they want to use more submission oriented wrestling, they should use it effectively, like have each wrestler have a finisher and a submission, like Chris Benoit with the crossface and the flying headbut, and Kurt Angle with the olympic slam and the ankle lock. What would Hogan's submission be? sleeper, of course old school.. B)
Guest Moleculo Posted July 31, 2002 Report Posted July 31, 2002 "So they've decided to change to...what's that style again? Oh, Boring, that's right." Yep,there's nothing more boring than a hotly-contested mat-based match with psychology and workrate.God,I wish they'd let wrestlers use BRAINBUSTERS more!That would rule!Fuck that mat stuff,it sucks.More head-droppy moves!//dumbass
Guest Brian Posted July 31, 2002 Report Posted July 31, 2002 Mat work? Jeez, that one went way over my head. Aside from Noble, and he hasn't even been hitting the mat hard, who has?
Guest RickyChosyu Posted July 31, 2002 Report Posted July 31, 2002 Mat work? Jeez, that one went way over my head. Aside from Noble, and he hasn't even been hitting the mat hard, who has? Umm, if one were really desperate, a case could be made for William Regal...but that doesn't really count. I guess Benoit/RVD was supposed to be an example of the new style...I'm not too impressed so far.
Guest Brian Posted July 31, 2002 Report Posted July 31, 2002 I'm impressed in that there's room to build on, but it will take an awful lot of time. I mean, you start with the wrestlers, than the announcers to point out this stuff, then you have to getit over with the fans. Plus in a more hold based, that means selling really has to pick up to pull it off.
Guest Trivia247 Posted July 31, 2002 Report Posted July 31, 2002 kinda a Shame Blackman is still out with Injury, he could go up with this, being the last man in the WWE who was doing those Lion Den Matches of Shamrock. and I think the Whole armbar thing during the Stasiak Dlo match wasn't because of boring, was because they had 3 minutes, and it would be wasting time trying to wear someone down in a resthold that people sit in for a minute at least.
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