WWE moving to new in-ring style

[Guest Brian]

Blackman's always had emphasis on his strikes though, plus I'd rather never have in on my TV again.

[Guest Moleculo]

I was referring to the situation that will arise when people like Angle and Benoit,or even lesnar,get a chance to wrestle under this new style.

[Guest Trivia247]

More Skill and Talent over Character development and people who even have jobs because they do mic work better than Ringwork

[Guest Brian]

I like the mat work and all but the problem is that Angle and Lesnar have almost next to nothing in building a match from mat work. Angle has a little in-ring experience with that through Benoit which will help, but he still looked pretty bad in those matches as a whole. Despite those negatives, if that is what the more hold-based style they're moving toward brings, I'm all for it.

 

As a side, I think we'll have a better chance with (K)noble being paired up with a Mysterio as much as Benoit paired up with Angle or Lesnar, just because Mysterio's actually incorporated that into his offense in the months prior to his WWE signing and has a lot of field experience in comparison, and (K)Noble is like a mini-Benoit.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I was referring to the situation that will arise when people like Angle and Benoit,or even lesnar,get a chance to wrestle under this new style.

The first two already have...and it didn't turn out too great. It might have been getting over, but no one can really tell since the WWE gave up on it rather quickly. I mean, if you look at the fourth match in the Benoit/Angle series, it was the exact opposite of submision wrestling, with both guys hitting lots of dangerous and high-impact moves and giving them very little respect with their selling, both short-term and long-term. It was like they had been watching UWFi for inspiration and then accidently popped in a Joshi tape by accident.

[Guest Trivia247]

i'd just be happy if they lifted the Moveset restrictions

 

its sad Vintage wrestlers in the 80's and 90's had matches which saw Piledrivers ever so often. and mostly never saw any serious injuries but now a days people can TRIP and go out with Quad damage and blame the Dreaded evil Piledrivers.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

i'd just be happy if they lifted the Moveset restrictions

 

its sad Vintage wrestlers in the 80's and 90's had matches which saw Piledrivers ever so often. and mostly never saw any serious injuries but now a days people can TRIP and go out with Quad damage and blame the Dreaded evil Piledrivers.

Wrestlers have always had a tendancy to get all the big bumps down fine but let their guard down on a hip toss and injure themselves for nine months. It happens.

 

The thing is, the piledriver doesn't mean anything these days. The Tombstone, maybe, but a standard piledriver is a total joke now. Long gone are the days when the Four Horsemen could ambush Nikita Kollof and give him a piledriver resulting in a four month long neck injury. It just doesn't happen anymore.

 

Hell, didn't Tazz no-sell three Piledriver's in 2000?

[Guest Trivia247]

i'd just be happy if they lifted the Moveset restrictions  

 

its sad Vintage wrestlers in the 80's and 90's had matches which saw Piledrivers ever so often. and mostly never saw any serious injuries but now a days people can TRIP and go out with Quad damage and blame the Dreaded evil Piledrivers.

Wrestlers have always had a tendancy to get all the big bumps down fine but let their guard down on a hip toss and injure themselves for nine months. It happens.

 

The thing is, the piledriver doesn't mean anything these days. The Tombstone, maybe, but a standard piledriver is a total joke now. Long gone are the days when the Four Horsemen could ambush Nikita Kollof and give him a piledriver resulting in a four month long neck injury. It just doesn't happen anymore.

 

Hell, didn't Tazz no-sell three Piledriver's in 2000?

the few Shining moments in Tazz's WWF career lol

[Guest Goodear]

I'm shocked that you managed to forget the years and years of everyone tapping to that move to make a credible finisher and an instant heat-drawing move by the time Flair had popularized it. Shocked, I say.

 

When was this? In 1983 (that's a guess) against Dusty Rhodes? Because after that, it was an oddity for someone to tap to the figure-four that was any higher on the card than Jimmy Garvin. I'm guessing that somewhere in the next twenty some odd years, people figured out the figure-four wasn't always going to make, let us say Lex Luger, quit, yet they still popped each and every time.

 

Getting Benoit over when he's not over doesn't make sense? So, by your definition, wrestlers who are already over should be using submisions to get over? Catch-22's are not your friend.

 

No, I'm saying guys who aren't over shouldn't be getting wins on guys that are much more over by submission. They want to win by pinfall or even apply submission holds until their opponents pass out, I'm fine with that. But clean tap out says to me that the guy who won is the better man. No ands, ifs, or buts. By making Booker T tap out to Benoit, you're sending a message to the fans that Booker doesn't have the guts to stay in there and fight and would rather just get out of the ring. And who really wants to cheer someone who doesn't give it their all? Does it help Benoit? Yes. Does it hurt Booker more? In my opinion, yes.

 

The Crossface and Anklelocke never had more credibility than when Benoit and Angle were getting submisions off of them all the time.

 

Isn't that like.... now? Angle made Hulk "Friggin" Hogan tap less than a month ago and Benoit just made Booker tap little over a week ago.

 

It's one thing to counter a hold, it's another to sit in the hold for two minutes and then make the ropes. That's just as bad as Hogan shaking off everyone's finisher and waving his finger, because it shows the hold isn't good enough to actually work.

 

Well, yeah, no one should just lay in a hold for two minutes and then no sell it. That's bad all the way around. But if as soon as the guy slaps a hold on, the guy in the hold immediately scrambles for the ropes... almost gets there ... gets dragged back towards the center... and then fights into the ropes? Thats good stuff there.

 

The point is, for a hold to really get over with the fans, and wrestlers need to not only sell the pain of it, but the panic of being put in such a dangerous hold by taping instantly to save them both the pain and possible injury.

 

That's fine for a heel to do. That makes a face look like a total wussy. Every face should be holding on as long as he can, that's what helps make him a face.

 

Then, when someone sits in the hold and fights it off, it actually means something, like in Flair's days as NWA champion with the Figuer Four.

 

And when someone quits, it should mean something too... like when Steamboat made Ric submit to the double chickenwing and when Terry Funk said "I quit" to the figure-four.

 

As an aside, piledrivers seem to mean a lot more in WWE now since they got pretty much banned. Chyna and Angle have both done injury angles after getting hit with the move since.

[Guest deadbeater]

Another big problem is that the WWF/E has been a kick/punch/brawl wrestling league, even more so than ECW. Even the ones very proficient in the mat style, such as Angle, and Backlund, are expected to brawl. Now for the first time, they are emphasizing mat moves, in which they have to re-educate the fans over. I don't mind good mat technique at all, but the announcers got to know what is going on in the ring and sell it, and not say stupid sh-- like making jokes about Molly's non-existent fat ass.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Ok, and why do you think they popped? Because they didn't think there was any danger? Because no one important had ever put over the move? Why exactly do you think the move got everyone so worked up? Because it meant something and had meant something for years and years. It wasn't one job Dusty Rhodes did, it was the way everyone sold it as a feared and deadly submision.

 

Who are these people who are much more over than Benoit who he shouldn't be beating? Benoit hasn't exactly gotten the best of opportunites to get any pins at all, considering he was stuck into a feud with Austin and then a feud with Flair, neither of which resulted in an actual match, and then put against the Dudley Boyz. So far, the only success he's had with the Crossface is getting a pass out victory of over Hardy, and that was after Regal had already KO'ed him, so it did nothing for the hold. Submisions can get someone over in the respect that someone tapping isn't necesarily tapping because they can't take the pain, but is afraid of the hold and what it will do to injure them. In that respect it can hurt credibility, but if it's simply stated as "his options were to give up or injure himself severely, so he had no choice" it can make the victim look simpathetic in loss, not cowardly. And Benoit has gotten over with submisions before, even though it was at the expense of a few undercard guys who weren't worth much to begin with. In that run he was able to carry the entire midcard and I'm of the opinion that we haven't seen a better IC champion since, because no one has had as many good matches or was as feared as Chris Benoit when his Crossface actually meant something.

 

I already explaned why the Anklelocke thing with Hogan was a wash, and one tap out from a glorified jobber does not a push make. One needs only watch Angle/Taker and Benoit/RVD shows to see how respected those two holds are.

 

A fight to ropes is good drama, but only if the hold he is escaping means something. If all of two people have tapped to the hold, the strugle to the ropes is fruitless and borring, because there's no real urgency there; it's just another hold.

 

Didn't the angle with Chyna happen before the banning of Piledriver's? Even so, that angle was done horribly because the move didn't look convincing at all and no one bought Chyna's injury in the slightest. The Angle/Austin feud also incorperated piledriver's, but that was only when done on the concrete. Neither of them built on it and the move seems to have been forgotten again.

[Guest godthedog]

here's the thing about submission finishers: if everybody taps to the hold, nobody loses face in the long run. they don't have to sell submissions as pussying out.

 

let's say austin had a match with kurt angle right after he'd broken scotty too hotty's ankle. angle puts on the ankle lock in the middle of the ring. austin tries for a few seconds to get to the ropes, but angle keeps him dead center in the ring, far away from anything. austin has nowhere to go and needs to save himself before something breaks and he passes out from the pain. he does the only smart & logical thing to do, which is tap. austin's no more of a pussy than he would be if his shoulders had been down for the 3 count after an olympic slam; angle just left him with no option but tapping out.

 

the problem comes when the bookers want a main event guy to be just a little tougher than everybody else, so they make him fight through the pain and get to the ropes or somehow break the hold. it makes the guy look tougher than everybody before him. however, it also makes everybody after him who DOES tap out a bit of a pussy. so those guys after the guy who wouldn't tap out don't want to tap out either, and the hold loses more & more credibility, till something amazing needs to be done with the hold to make the guy tap out & not make him look like a pussy. this is EXACTLY what happened with the ankle lock. and even now, it's less credible than ever.

 

fighting out of a finishing submission hold should be as rare as a kickout of a finisher, if not rarer. if everybody cooperated, nobody would come out looking the worse for it.

 

about piledrivers: chyna's spike piledriver was after they were banned. and angle & austin DID build on it during their unforgiven match. austin kept attempting it and angle avoided it like an in-law. eventually austin nailed it & it got a near-fall.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

about piledrivers: chyna's spike piledriver was after they were banned. and angle & austin DID build on it during their unforgiven match. austin kept attempting it and angle avoided it like an in-law. eventually austin nailed it & it got a near-fall.

I'm afraid I was a bit unclear. I meant the didn't build on the idea of making piledriver's a threat after they stopped feuding. If Austin had continued using them and building them up as a serious threat to any opponent, I would have commended him, but they essentially used it as a self-contained storyline revolving around Angle/Austin.

[Guest Kid Kablam]

You know, after so many people were bitching and moaning about "Angle and Brock having a potentially-awesome amature match" people sure turned on the idea quickly.

 

I can't name one really great match the WWE style has produced this year. I think a change might be needed. Submision wrestling isn't for everyone, but I think this is the next logical route that needs to be taken to help evolve the wrestling business. If submision holds actually having meaning and wrestlers being forced use holds effectively is borring, I'd hate to think what the explanation behind the current WWE wrestling style is.

I think that the most important aspect, and WWE will probably not understand this as Vince really doesn't understand wrestling, involves fighting for the submission hold as opposed to just randomly slapping on holds. Take a look at Angle vs Benoit, the two would fight for practically every submision. I loved seeing Angle fight the crossface and seeing Benoit pound on the back of his neck to break the resistance. But WWE's style involves randomly slapping on holds that act as rest holds.

[Guest Kid Kablam]

And speaking of Angle and Benoit, I don't know why everyone seems to be badmouthing them. I thought they did very well together. I felt that their matwork was vastly underrated which shows in my previous post. I really enjoyed their matches. One man's opinion I guess.

[Guest Brian]

Because the first match at WrestleMania which was the most sound and smooth, was cut short, and the series generally exposed Angle for being weak in any other style than the WWE as he was constantly winded, stalling, bailing, or just generally looking totally lost.

[Guest Kid Kablam]

Well I'll agree that some of his suplexes during the 2/3 falls match were pretty out of place, but I still immensely enjoyed the match.

[Guest EricMM]

Personally I think that submissions would add to the experiance, as another flavor of finisher. But that would mean having to sell us viewers a couple of things:

 

1st, that guys like Kane, Albert, and Cena for example have the skill and wherewithall to hit a submission manuever. It doesn't seem like wrestlers are skilled anymore, it seems like they didn't learn how to fight past punching. It would rule if you had to be a competent wrestler to be in the wwe (and I mean that the announcers would put this over)

 

2nd, that moves could be avoided that were not just finishers. So say the announcers get the fact over that if you break a bone, you're not winning a match, and wrestlers start going for submissions, they have to be avoided. Crabwalk to the ropes before you're in the hold, punch the guy in the head before he gets it on. If you're going to break someones arm with an armbar, you're going to do it quickly.

 

3rd, and most difficult, that just because it isn't "cool" it isn't effective. I dunno if they should get this over, but choking someone out is as good as twisting their arm. If someone has you in a chokehold with body scissors on the ground, you will probably pass out. So people in shootfights tap before this happens because they don't want to black out.

 

4th, and quasi redundant, if someone taps due to fear of actual damage, they weren't particularly damaged. They are still lucid. Their opponent won a contest. They weren't cheated, and it wasn't a fluke, but they weren't knocked out either. IIRC, there are 3 kinds of endings for a WWE match now. A knockout pin, a rollup fluke pin (followed by tantrums), and a run in. If angle makes rock tap, what's rock gonna do right afterwards? Say ok, you won? That's not the way WWE works, he's gonna try and clock him from behind. Because they actually hate each other apparently? Sigh.

[Guest Goodear]

1st, that guys like Kane, Albert, and Cena for example have the skill and wherewithall to hit a submission manuever. It doesn't seem like wrestlers are skilled anymore, it seems like they didn't learn how to fight past punching. It would rule if you had to be a competent wrestler to be in the wwe (and I mean that the announcers would put this over)

I'm confused by the statement that wrestlers aren't skilled anymore. What are you comparing to, the eighties? Because, sure there was Flair, Hart, and Steamboat, but there was also tons and tons of terrible wrestlers all over the place that make Kane, Albert, and Cena look like mat wizards in comparison. I think if you compare this gernerations lower tier of workers to past generations' lower tier, you'll see that you're much better off now than in the "glory days."