Coffin Surfer

Until about 97, All Japan usually had some of the hottest crowds ever, I really don't know where that baffling statement is coming from. Late 90s matches perhaps? Until 94, All Japan had one of the deeper rosters around, producing some of the best and most exciting undercard matches of all time. Lets see here: Fantastics vs. J. Malenko/Kikuchi Can Ams vs. Kobashi/Kikuchi-watch out for the subdued crowd.(rolls eyes) Can Ams vs. Kawada/Kikuchi Kobashi/Kikuchi vs. Ogawa/Akiyama and literally tons more great undercard stuff that smokes the main events of most promotions from that time period. They also did a really geat job of mixing the undercard guys with the upper tier guys in six man and regular tags, giving guys like Fuchi a chance to shine.

Inverted=Victim's body position is flip flopped. Reverse=Motion of move is done in the opposite direction than it normally is. example: Inverted Suplex=Victim turned faced up and suplexed. Reverse Supelx=Victim lifted up and dropped forward instead of backward. So there you have it.

Santo's Tope and Superman Plancha. Gary Albright's Dead Lift German off the canvas. Manami Toyota..most of her suplexes like the inverted bridged underhook suplex thing or the straight jacket Northern Lights Suplex.

Yes, he was a Danny creation. Perhaps my only lasting contribution to the fed. But if anyone wants to use Danny as a play by play guy one of these days, feel free. The name actually comes from the old Tick Cartoon. The Tick was undercover but when asked for his name he could only reply,"Uh.....Nick...Nick....Nick Soapdish." I thought it made good referee name. So there you have it.

Matches I think could work: Vader vs. Kobashi 93 -Fuck their boring late 90s matches. This is the year they should have met. Hase/Sasaki vs. Misawa/Kawada 91 -The two best teams in the world at that point. Stiener Brothers vs. Kobashi/Kikuchi 92 -Probably wouldn't be as great as the Can Am match but Kobashi and Kikuchi might have been able to lead the Michigan Spot Machines through the best match of their careers.

There's that Akira Taue guy. What? Sorry but I don't see Misawa playing "Flair by numbers". Misawa was at his best when letting himself getting dominated by his opponent, giving him the opportunity to sell his ass off and space their moves out enough so he can stage his epic comeback. Flair was also at his strongest when allowing his opponents to dominate. This is a conflict that wouldn't be resolved well since even in his prime Flair didn't have the high end offense for 90s All Japan. Misawa would basically be forced to epically put over "dated" offense. And unlike other aging superstars like Baba, Jumbo, and Hansen, Flair has actually toned out his offense over the years rather than adding more modern moves to it. On the otherside of the coin, Flair is notorious for forcing his opponents to cator their offense to his trademark bumps. So Misawa would probably have to leave the majority of his high end offense at home in favor of Backbody Drops and Slams off the top turnbuckle. I can't recall Misawa ever going sixty in a singles match. His 40+ plus minute epics with Kobashi come to mind but Flair would be out of his league in a match like that. If it was to go that long, Misawa would have to restrict himself and work Flair's match. That's really the only way this could go anyway, since there's no way Flair could work Misawa's match. In the end, it would be a terribly disappointing match, especially for Misawa who's capable of so much more than that.

Bahahahahahaha! Let me know when HBK had a match that even approaches Kawada/Williams 4/94 from that year or even Misawa/Williams 7/2/8/94. Now that I think about it, I would probably put Williams over HBK from that year. Takada/Vader also kills anything HBK or Hart did that year. This is just madness though I agree with Misawa as number one. I would love to see HBK lead Gary Albright through a great pro style match like Kawada did. Taue had a helluva year as well and by this point was a far superior worker than Mutoh or Hash.

That's what math rock pretty much is though, unless your confusing it with the math rock influenced hardcore or "matchcore" as it's put. I would still recommend Slint.

Actually All Music does a decent job of covering the sub genre, I would link it but you have to be registered to use the site now. Worth a look if your a member. Anyways, real math rock is stuff like Chavez and Polvo. Couldn't tell you alot about them since I never got into them that much. I do however like Braid, who despite leaning more towards the Chicago post punk sound, actually dabble considerably in math rock. Though they aren't really labeled math rock themselves, so called "post-rock" band Slint are very influential to math rock as well as mathcore. I'm not sure if DEP list Slint as an official influence but some of their slower passages, especially the ones in "The Running Board" sound identical to Slint. Botch, which I'm surprised haven't been mentioned yet, is another great mathrock influenced hardcore band. Much more cleaner melodies and gutiar work than DEP, though as result their not nearly as insane. David Knudson is one of the most criminally underrated gutiarist alive. Their song "Swimming the Channel vs. Driving the Chunnel" also suspiciously sounds very similar to Slint's work on Spiderland. Of course, I would strongly recommened Botch to DEP fans and also Slint to mathcore fans. Slint aren't really heavy but their similar in more sublime ways.

Actually I imagine Misawa does that over his injured neck, not because he's scared of brain damage.

Oh come on... Douglas/Steamboat vs. Windham/Pillman Starrcade 92. It's only a top 3 U.S. tag match. Actually, WWC and Superbrawl 92 are the only two U.S. tag matches I'd put over it.

I'm not a big fan of 3/31/96, it has a lot of high end offense but their timing is a little off and of course the selling leaves alot to be desired. There's actually several other matches in 96 that foreshadowed the "head drop" regression. For obvious reasons, Kawada and Kobashi lose the crowd in yet another one of their 60 minute borefests at 10/96. So out of desperation, they fill the last 20-30 minutes with head drop after head drop to keep the crowd's attention. Kobashi/Taue TC match from 96 is another one where it appears that Kobashi didn't get the reaction he wanted for the Moonsault tease so he busts out a delayed sell of the Nodowa to get the crowd hot again. 10/97 is actually a good example of this as well. Misawa is awesome in the match but Kenta's timing is off and he misses a couple of oppurtunities to build heat. The crowd is actually pretty dead when they are about to start the final stretch so Kobashi fires them up again with a series of Half Nelsons before going back to the original plan. I wouldn't call it a classic like most would, still a great match. So in other words: headdrops/delayed selling=cheap heat. Something they needed as the match ups got tired and stale. I think this explains this actions better than "brain damage."

"His style's slow, he's about 7'4" and 100 pounds (well, 316 pounds), and yet somehow he managed to become a Japanese legend and three time NWA World Champion. I'd assume he kissed Rikidozan's ass but Rikidozan was dead before Baba ever got started in the business. " (rolls eyes) While I wouldn't be surprised if this match was horrid, you should probably do more research before you makes stupid statements like that. Despite his athletic limitations, Baba was still a great worker. Even though he was no doubt very fragile, he bumped his ass off and was almost always willing to take all of his opponent's high end offense. He was a surprisingly excellent mat worker, better than Flair that's for damn sure. Great seller, smart worker and rather innovative, helping to lay down the ground work for modern heavyweight wrestling in Japan. Extremely motivated in 94 and 93, the aging Baba played a good sized role in several great tag matches. Unlike a certain old fart who's been stuck in a time warp for the the past decade or so, Baba added more modern moves to his already large credible move set. When was the last time you saw Flair bust out a DDT or Cross Armbreaker? Sorry for going off topic but seeing the pimping of un-informed comments that people have a good chance of seeing gets me a tad irritated.

Well modern All Japan sucks so I could careless but if your talking about Baba's boys in their prime than no.... Jumbo's Backdrop Baba's Neckbreaker Drop Hansen's Lariat Misawa's Tiger Driver 91, Tiger Suplex 85, Super Running Elbow, Diving Neckbreaker Drop Kobashi's Moonsault, Burning Lariat, Burning Hammer Taue's Dynamic Bomb Dan Kroffat's Tiger Driver Steven Williams' Backdrop Driver Terry Gordy's Powerbomb and for a while Kawada's Folding Powerbomb and Stretch Plum all at one point were very over and pretty protected. Most of the finisher kick outs occured in the Main Event which is nothing new. Even than they were usually put over well at least in the great matches.

Than there just like any other wrestlers in that regard, which is what I've been trying to say here. Well that worked out just peachy didn't it? I think you just don't understand what I'm saying. By saying he could have got the head scissors escape from anywhere when there's an extremly high possibility he saw the Destroyer do it. Once again, it doesn't matter as that was not the point of my original comment. Your missing the point. Your original comment praised them for being these innovative wrestlers who were inventing these new sequences in every match. When really it's alot of the same stuff mixed up with a few slight changes. Nothing wrong with that since it really isn't no different from what alot of other wrestlers do. Well obviously, but when their already using very similar exchanges it kind of kills the coming up with stuff on the fly argument. It wasn't a detailed statement, I thought it was implied that there was a hot opening. Go back and watch matches from the late 70s or early 80s, even something like Race/Baba 10/31/79 opens hot, has the mat work, than finishes with the nearfalls and highspots. It's the same blue print that most matches were following from that time. AGAIN, it's the same blueprint most matches were following at that time. Making it faster doesn't change the construction of the match. I'll say it again, they were fast. Not denying that. Sorry, I prefer smart matches. Not this different kind of smartness your talking about though. Compare it to how Baba's boys would treat the head drops in the early 90s. The knee drop never got the same "Oh my god, he really killed him" reaction from the crowd. It was already a regularly used move up to that point, that Destroyer fellow used it a few times as well. The Backdrop Driver was not. Once again, it's just an example of them failing to smartly read the crowd and gage their reactions. Nothing wrong with TM avoiding the Knee drop but considering how the crowd reacted to the spot he should have probably done a little more to put over the move.

Not really. 1/82 stands out because it does play off some previous sequences in their other matches and lasts a reasonable amount of time. The mat work is probably some of their most interesting and both guys get in alot of high end offense(though it's not exactly put over that well). DK does a good job of showing frustration and even does a little mask tearing and choking. 8/82 stands out because it's hella fast and by far has the most high end offense of any of their matches. 4/83 is praised because of DK's mannerisms and personality, doing a great job of showing his frustration and determination. They do play off a few past sequences with DK finally ending up a step ahead of Tiger. Though his win at all costs attitude is hard to buy when he never attempts any pins.

Ugh, unless were talking about Savage or DDP this is true with almost all matches. But just like in every match, there are spots. I'm pretty sure DK knew he was going to work the Flying Headbutt and Tombstone into the match at some point. I also wouldn't be surprised if they had a good idea what the finish was going to be. Though you've done covered your tracks with the "most part" comment. Who he borrowed it from is not the issue, I was just pointing out that it's been done before, most notably by the Destroyer. However, it's pretty gullable to think that Tiger Mask never saw one of the most popular wrestlers in his country execute one of his most famous spots. Listen to yourself, man. It's hard to argue that they were inventing these sequences off the top of their head when they've ran through the same exchanges in previous matches. I think when DK grabbed a wristlock, TM knew,"O.k time for our little reversal sequence." I'm not saying it was "Savage" type preplanned, I'm just saying they weren't busting out new exchanges off the top of their heads everynight like you are trying to imply that they did. Like anybody else they had their "spots" that they wanted to fit into the match. Most matches did back than, that's my point. No, you were trying to say that they invented some new type of blueprint for matches when they actually followed the same formula that most already did. Like I said, alot of these new intriguing highspots weren't so new. Some were but not as many as some people seem to think. Long strings of high spots weren't that uncommon either, haven't you seen Jumbo pop off two or three Suplexes in a roll back in the 70s. Yes, they were fast but that doesn't mean they were inventing a new blue print, they were just increasing the tempo. So is good selling and reading the crowd, something that was evidently too tough for them. I was just watching the match w/Hart at ring side. TM takes a Backdrop Driver that scares the hell of the crowd, literally causing them to jump out of their chairs. Do they take advantage of this? Maybe using it as a nearfall or putting it over as deadly move. No, one missed knee later and TM is back on offense with no trouble.

Not really. Their matches are laid out the same way 70s All Japan and pretty much most wrestling matches were laid out at the time. Matwork to start, a brief string of highspots to finish. Even than their mat work and reversals is no less innovative than the crazy stuff Billy Robinson was doing a few years prior with Jumbo plus his escapes was usually more meaningful too. Plus, Robinson used just as much if not more state of the art high end offense as Tiger Mask and DK. Hell, Tiger Mask's head scissors escape was borrowed from the Destroyer. I also don't buy that there were no "spots" in their matches, you would have to very gullable to believe that nothing was preplanned, that's total horse shit. Alot of their matches obviously use the same spots with little changes.

I think Ray can speak for himself. I wouldn't even call any of their matches great, though some are very good.

That better matches exist doesn't mean these matches aren't good/great. Well if there's better matches than it's hard to call them the greatest of all time. Anyways, 8/5/82 and I believe 1/28/82 are the best of the bunch. 4/21/83 is close behind. Yet even these three have an incomplete feel to them since they still don't bring all their trademark spots and high end offense to the table in any of em, though 8/82 comes close. The rest are really bunch of exhibitions with a few varied token spots throw in for differentation sake, no real progression of the fued.

I'm not missing out, I'm just enjoying better matches.

No this isn't always true. I've seen Race set up the Indian Deathlock with Suplexes and I know Funk and Flair have at times locked on their holds without leg work to build to it. Damn, Chi-Town is a rather famous excellent match where Flair doesn't work the leg at all to set up the Figure Four. One of smartest workers of all time, The Destroyer, rarely worked over the leg to set up the Figure Four, his main concern was stunning his opponent long enough to lock the move on. The similar usage of the uber over Cross Armbreaker in Japan also comes to mind. Angle and Beniot appeared to be using similar psychology in the Rumble match. However, it doesn't really work since sadly the Anklelock and Crossface aren't exactly the Destroyer's Figure Four or the Cross Armbreaker. They certaintly don't get the same deadly "instant tap out" treatment. Truth be told it would have been worse if they worked over limbs to build to them, because the holds would have ended up even looking worse. Either way, Angle and Beniot's usage of the submission holds is pretty far from the being the most brillaint history. It's not the worse either, it's a rather good match but as far as it being great or one of the best ever....I would have to say,"No, not even close." I went looking for my tape with all the Angle-Benoit matches and couldn't find it, so I don't have many specifics to offer, so yeah, you got me there. Hmmmm, I don't recall any real "mat work" in the Rumble match. Beniot builds towards a Sharpshooter, hardly mat work. Actually, Beniot's smart build towards the Sharpshooter is one of the biggest bright spots of the match.

Sorry, triple post for reasons unknown.

Sorry, triple post for reasons unknown.

The "Best of them" is suppose to only apply to the mat wrestling part. Originally it was a whole paragraph with a sentence saying something like but he won't be able to keep up with guys like Flesher and Francis on the mat or fly like Wildchild. But after thinking about it, it really depends on the match and the story the writer is trying to tale, so I decided to leave it more open to interpretation. It's also rather obvious that Danny can't fly like Wildchild since he doesn't have as complex high flying moves.