Coffin Surfer

7539, I was actually aiming for a shorter count.

You could say the same thing about alot of the bands and records labeled post punk, which oddly enough is my point.

Just saying but Pink Flag is at times refered to as one of first post-punk albums. Besides, I never really got the whole "post-punk" label anyway since from the get go most of the worthwhile bands had their own approach and were experimenting with other genres. It was for the most part a way of saying, "80s punk bands that aren't hardcore" even if alot of the hardcore bands were just as diverse and adventerous.

I'm gonna stay away from the "what is punk?" yadda yadda stuff and just recommend essential albums that are generally recognized as punk excluding the mentioned Sex Pistols, Clash, Ramones. Misfits-Walk Among Us -The best versions of their best songs Dead Kennedys-Fresh Fruit... -Very unique sound and vocals with some funny black comedy and political satire. Naked Raygun-Jettison -Another stand out band from the 80s. "Vanilla Blue" is one of the most addictive punk songs ever. New York Dolls-s/t -Sleezy proto punk that would influence everybody from the Ramones to Kiss. Gang of Four-Entertainment -Funky post punk at it's best. Dead Boys-Young Loud and Snotty -Who the Sex Pistols' look and sound were said to be molded after. Similar style minus British accent and social commentary. Descendents-Somery -Their first lp is a great early hardcore release while this features some of that as well some of the greatest pop punk(not to be confused with what is mislabeled as such nowdays) songs ever written. Buzzcocks-Singles Going Steady -Great well written early pop punk. "Orgasm Addict" is classic. Minor Threat-Complete Discography -About as good as straight up D.C. Hardcore gets with the exception of the already mentioned first Bad Brains lp, who were more musically accomplished. Turbonegro-Ass Cobra, Apocalypse Dudes -Punk's dead...riiiight. As good as anything from the glory days. Very talented band, AC is some good ol fashioned offensive hardcore with their own twist while AD is a rather musical post-pop punk album. Fear-The Record -Musically accomplished 80s L.A. band with a similar attitude in their lyrics to the Dead Kenndys. Flipper-Generic -Very strange sluggish hardcore featuring the classic,"Sex Bomb." Hard to find nowdays. probably more...

That's nice Jenkins but let's not forget about the guy who wrote the match. Wow, this is a surprise. Nice to know that the match hasn't been forgotten...it's been over a year now. Aside from a few grammar errors I was happy with the last half but there's so much more I wanted to do with the body of the match but didn't have the time or energy to. As a result, it's actually more like a 35-40 minute match than sixty. 20 thousand words is probably the real equivalent of 60 minutes. For some reason I called the Standing Surfboard a Cobra Twist(Abdominal Stretch), I think a read review somewhere were it was miscalled that. Interesting enough, Francis had no idea I was going to job the title to him. It was never pre-planned, just something I decided to do in order to move up to the Main Event. I figured the Iron Man was a good opportunity to drop the title since if Williams won the first fall with no trouble he would still look like the better of the two even if he couldn't go the distance. From the get go, I wanted the final score to be 2-1 with a huge gigantic match sandwhiched between the first and last falls. I thought multiple falls would be to difficult to write and most likely screw up the flow in the long run. Suffering from writer's block, I actually started writing the match from the first Powerbomb since I had a pretty good idea how I wanted the final stretch of nearfalls to go. I thought I could go back and eat up words afterwards, I was wrong and nearly had to no show. Mak was probably one of my favorite characters to write against, really great varied moveset. It made it possible to give him to a second string run of finishers which was crucial to the match. Really hard match to write and you'll probably never see a match this long from me again. I have no idea how I got it done and if it wasn't for me getting inspired enough to write out the last half in one quick sitting it would have probably never been finished. edit-Oh and obviously this is the match that put the Juji-Gatame/Cross Armbreaker on the map in SWF land. Danny would take Nelisen of the Jungle out with it in the next show as well if I recall correctly.

If were gonna link to reviews we might as well spin the guy in the right direction. 6/9/95 review

No that's mine. Brainfart I suppose.

I don't think Clark attacking Janus's injured leg from behind hurts the Hell Machine's credibility. It makes it look like Clark needed an injury in addition to the element of surprise to get the best of Janus. He also won every fair exchange he had with me, the Champion. edit: Truth be told I probably could have gone out of my way to make Janus look stronger but I had my heart set on the double submission finish.

Democracy sucks since lots of real North American classics have been left off in favor of some shit choices. But that's the rules, so I can't really complain. 1)Austin vs Rock wm 17 64)benoit vs malenko hog wild 96 32)hhh vs jericho fully loaded 00 33)angle vs shane kotr 01 -Ugh, I recall not liking either of these. But since Angle/Shane isn't even a match really, I'll go with the other. 16)hhh vs foley rumble 00 49)hbk/austin vs owen/buldog raw 5/26/97 -Only because I haven't seen the tag match since it happened live. 17)flair vs steamboat chi-town rumble 48)hbk/deisel vs kid/razor action zone Haven't seen the tag in years if I've seen it at all, but I doubt it's better than the best Flair/Steamboatmatch. 8)hbk vs foley mind games 57)bret vs hbk wm12 25)austin vs angle summerslam 01 40)austin vs hhh no way out 01 -Didn't really like either as I recall. 9)angle vs benoit rumble 03 56)rey/edge vs angle/benoit smackdown 2/3 falls -Better memory of the rumble match. 24)austin vs benoit smackdown 5/01 41)spanky-low ki-williams-danielson 7/27/02 4)bret vs austin wm13 61)flair vs windham battle of the belts 2 -Bret/Austin is excellent but 2/86 is probably the smartest match Flair ever wrestled and Windham had a shitload to do with it. Windham>Steamboat. If this match had a finish and was shorter that would be alot more obvious. 29)pilman vs liger superbrawl 2 36)steiners vs sting/luger superbrawl 1 -For what it is, I do like the tag match alot. Real close call. 13)hbk vs undertaker bad blood 97 52)hogan vs warriar wm6 -Ugh. Probably Hogan/Warrior for nostalgic purposes. 20)hhh vs foley no way out 00 45)blanchard vs magnum ta starcade 85 -More hate in Starcade but the match hasn't aged very well. 5)bret vs owen wm10 60)bret vs flair 1/9/93 ironman 28)flair vs funk clash 9 37)flair vs vader starcade 93 -Two very overrated matches I never understood the love for. 12)savage vs warriar wm7 53)ohtani vs eddie starcade 95 21)bret vs perfect summerslam 91 44)eddie vs lesnar no way out 04 3)rey vs eddie halloween havoc 97 62)malenko vs eddie hostile city showdown 95 -Not even close. 31)flair vs steamboat wrestlewar 89 34)bret vs benoit 10/4/99 -Haven't seen Bret/Beniot since it aired, but as I recall they did build off previous sequences and progressed their match. 15)bret vs owen summerslam 94 50)hhh/austin vs benoit/jericho 5/21/01 -Don't like either really. 19)sting vs vader superbrawl 3 46)flair vs savage wm8 -I'm sorry but these matches aren't in the same galaxy. Sting and Vader do some of the smartest work of their careers here even if the finish is lacking. 7)savage vs steamboat wm3 58)bret vs vader vs austin vs undertaker final four 27)eddie/art barr vs octagon/santo when worlds collide 38)rock vs foley rumble 99 11)hhh vs rock judgement day 00 54)hbk vs jericho wm19 -Only because I never saw WM19. 23)benoit vs jericho rumble 01 42)bret vs buldog summerslam92 -Really great performance from Bret as I recall. 22)10 man tag canadian stampede 43)hbk vs jarret iyh 2 10)92 rumble 55)benoit vs raven souled out 98 26)london vs danielson 4/12/03 39)flair vs windham worldwide 1/20/87 -Need to see 1/20/87, don't believe I've seen it in a very long time. Still, 4/12/03 kills Flair/Steamboat Clash 2/3 falls. 6)hhh vs hbk vs benoit wm20 59)midnight express vs southern boys great american bash 90 -The greatest comedy match of all time? 18)wargames92 47)owen vs buldog 2/26/97 14)hbk vs razor ramon wm10 51)rey/edge vs angle/benoit no mercy 02 30)bret vs perfect kotr 93 35)rey vs ultimo dragon world war 3 96 2)bret vs austin survivor series 96 63)wargames 87 - In the WWF this match is head and shoulders above the pack.

It would probably be a good idea to add the two of the best North American matches, Santo/Casas 87 and 97 to the tournament. Drop any of the one votes, and put them on there.

Evidenlty since I'm the one few people here who seems to have seen alot of puro, I'll throw in a All Japan list. Once again, the ones that are the same star ranking could easily be shifted around. 1. Misawa/Akiyama vs. Kawada/Taue 12/6/96 ***** 2. Misawa vs. Kawada 6/3/94 ***** 3. Misawa/Kobashi vs. Kawada/Taue 6/9/95 ***** 4. Misawa/Kobashi vs. Kawada/Taue 12/3/93 ***** 5. Hansen vs. Kobashi 7/31/93 ***** 6. Misawa vs. Kobashi 1/20/97 ****3/4 7. Kawada vs. Kobashi 6/12/98 ****3/4 8. Kobashi/Kikuchi vs. Kroffat/Furnas 5/25/92 ****3/4 9. Kawada vs. Hansen 2/28/93 ****3/4 10. Jumbo vs. Misawa 6/8/90 ****3/4 11. Misawa vs. Taue 4/15/95 ****3/4 12. Misawa vs. Kawada 7/24/95 ****3/4 13. Misawa vs. Kawada 10/21/92 ****3/4 14. Misawa/Kobashi vs. Kawada Taue 10/15/95 ****3/4 15. Kawada vs. Williams 4/16/94 ****1/2 16. Misawa/Akiyama vs. Williams/Ace 6/7/96 ****1/2 17. Misawa/Kobashi/Akiyama vs. Kawada/Taue/Ogawa 7/2/93 ****1/2 18. Jumbo vs. Kobashi 5/24/91 ****1/2 19. Jumbo vs. Kawada 10/24/91 ****1/2 20. Misawa/Kobashi vs. Hansen/Baba 11/30/93 ****1/2 70s/80s(from what I've seen) 1. Jumbo vs. Funk 6/12/76 ****3/4 2. Robinson vs. Baba 7/24/76 ****1/2 3. Jumbo vs. Race 6/11/77 ****1/2 4. Jumbo vs. Tenyru 6/5/89 ****1/2 5. Jumbo/Tenyru vs. Choysu/Yatsu 1/28/86 ****1/2 6. Jumbo vs. Tenyru 10/28/88 ****1/2 7. Destroyer vs. Masacaras 7/25/74 ****1/2 8. Jumbo vs. Robinson 3/5/77****1/4 9. Jumbo vs. Robinson 3/11/77 ****1/4 10. Race vs. Baba 10/31/79 ****1/4

Misawa wins 1. vs. Jumbo 6/90 -Misawa becomes the first and only native of his generation to defeat the Man in a singles match. 2. vs. Hansen 8/22/92 -Misawa captures the Triple Crown for the first time, beginning his record breaking reign that would last nearly two years. 3. vs. Kobashi 1/20/97 -Having had a bad year(for Misawa), the Man reclaims the Triple Crown in his toughest challenge yet. losses 1.w/Kobashi vs. Kawada/Taue 6/9/95 -For the first time since Jumbo in 91, Misawa get's his shoulders pinned to the mat by a native. 2. vs Taue 5/24/96 -In a shocking upset, Taue becomes the first native to pin Misawa in a singles match since Jumbo taking the Triple Crown in the process. 3. vs Williams 7/28/94 -Dr. Death ends Misawa's record setting Triple Crown reign. Less shocking than the others since it was a gajin monster. defining moment: 6/3/94 vs. Kawada -Misawa survives the greatest threat to not only his title but perhaps even his status as "the man".

Momoracci covered it well, but I'll give my take as well. Alot of pre-Choysu All Japan isn't that different from what you see in 80s U.S wrestling. It's really the same heavyweight style it's just for the most part the matches in All Japan tended to be smarter and more advanced. Truth be told this probably had more to do with the quality of workers and motivation than an actual difference in style. Of course All Japan's wrestling style kept evolving throughout the 80s and 90s until it produced a style so complex and demanding that only a handful of guys in the world(namely Misawa,Kobashi, Kawada and Taue) could work it properly. It's different from U.S. in that the strike exchanges are more meaningful and far more complex. The matches began to be built entirely around signature moves with all the excess fat cut away. The long term selling became more advanced and smarter...etc. The finishing runs got stretched out further and further, and in some cases make up more than half the match. Sadly, submission holds gradually lost meaning until they were nothing more than wear down holds for the big bombs. And around 97, the style began to deprogress into head drop a thons. The Juniors and Joshi have done been covered well. With the New Japan heavies you have a much larger emphasis on submissions and mat work than their peers in All Japan. To be honest I don't like New Japan heavies too much, and someone else might be able to help you more in that department. I do enjoy alot of the early 90s New Japan tag matches though which oddly enough bares a resemblance to what Baba's boys would be doing in tags later in the decade.

Sure... Hansen vs Kobashi, 7/29/93 Misawa vs. Kawada 6/3/94 Kawada/Taue vs. Misawa/Kobashi 12/3/93 Kawada/Taue vs Misawa/Kobashi 6/9/95 Kawada/Taue vs Misawa/Akiyama 12/6/96 Hokuto/Kandori Dreamslam Toyota/Yamada vs. Kansai/Ozaki Dreamrush I have a tough time ranking U.S. matches, because as soon as I want to slap a high ranking on one I think of another match that I gave that rating to from outside the U.S. which in comparision is clearly on another level. For instance I would love to give the Windham/Rhodes vs. Austin/Zbysko tag ****1/2 but sadly it can't hold up to something like Kobashi/Kikuchi vs. Can Am Connection(about ****1/2) or even some of the better early 90s New Japan tags(the highest I have at ****1/4 since All Japan's later stuff kills them).

Eh....All Japan lists have been done to death. I just did a New Japan list, so I'll toss some North American stuff out there. My North American list is the least stable of my lists since I really need to see more lucha, a few gems I've missed, and revisit alot of stuff that I haven't seen since it happened. For the hell of it, here's probably how it would shape up at the moment because I need to try sort things out myself. Santo vs. Casas 2/3 falls 7/18/87 ****3/4 Santo vs. Casas 9/19/97 ****1/2 Santo vs. El Dandy vs. Casas ****1/4-****1/2? Hart vs. Austin Survivor Series 96 ****1/4 Guerrero vs. Misterio Havoc 97 ****1/4 Danielson vs. London 2/3 Falls 4/12/03 ****1/4 Windham/Rhodes vs. Zbysko/Austin ****-****1/4? Sting vs. Vader Superbrawl 93 **** Sting vs. Vader Bash 92 **** Flair vs. Steamboat Chi-Town **** Flair vs. Steamboat 2/3 Falls Clash of the Champions **** Flair vs Windham 2/14/86 **** Santo/Octagon vs. Barr/Guerrero Worlds Colide **** Midnight Express vs. Southern Boys Bash 90 ***3/4 Douglas/Steamboat vs. Windham/Pillman Starcade 92 ***3/4 Vader vs. Sting Starcade 92 ***3/4 Hart vs. Austin Wrestlemania 13 ***3/4 Rock vs. Austin Wreslemania 17 ***3/4 Wargames 92 ***3/4 Steamboat vs. Savage Wrestlemania 3 ***1/2 Flair vs. Steamboat Wrestlwar 89 ***1/2 Hart vs. Owen Wrestlemania X ***1/2 Micheals vs. Ramon Wrestlemania X ***1/2 Micheals vs. Foley Mindgames 96 ***1/2 no real ranking aside from the stars.

About right. I didn't find his pm until I logged in to turn my match in at the last minute, so the match was entirely finished. I didn't have time to rewrite the finish which also wouldn't make sense considering the match I built, and if he doesn't have the title there's no point in him keeping his heat on a screwjob finish if I'm inheriting the belt. However I actually didn't know he was no showing, just that he was jobbing the title. So I tried to keep the run in within the word limits in fear of a dq while purposely making it goofy so it would be bought as comedy rather than a rushed, out of time, out of words finish.

Albums in my collection that I guess would be about ***** as in the level of quality is high and consistent and I don't have to skip anything. Stooges-Fun House Clash-Clash(original UK version) Gang of Four-Entertainment Joy Division-Unknown Pleasures Van Halen-Van Halen At the Gates-Slaughter of the Soul Slayer-Reign in Blood Television-Marquee Moon Opeth-Still Life Misfits-Walk Among Us Hopesfall-No Wings to Speak of-perhaps not fair that it's an ep, but it's still the best hardcore release I've ever heard. Hot Water Music-Fuel for the Hate Game Just missed: Cure-Disintegration Smiths-Queen is Dead Iron Madien-Number of the Beast

Akira Hokuto was a fantastic speaker, probably the best ever, even without understanding her words you could understand her point. All Japan is the only fed that I've watched enough of to comment on. Throughout most of All Japan's best years, all the major angles and storylines were told in the ring rather than outside it. That's not to say the wrestler's never spoke, they did do in character interviews. Kawada and Jumbo appeared to be very good at this as both were really great performers. I can even recall Kawada shedding tears on a few dramatic occasions. As far as charisma goes, from what I've seen: Baba, Destroyer, Hokuto, LCO, Toyota, Ohtani, Lyger, Kobashi, Jumbo, Fuchi, Kawada, Misawa, Taue, Mutoh, Chono, Hashimoto, Hansen..etc. all appeared to have tons of it.

He wasn't. Goodbye.

Any chance of you listing the tiny factors when your feeling better? Pm, post, either would do. I didn't have a chance to proofread my match, and I can imagine a few errors were more than likely present to say the least. But I'd like to here it from you. I also don't think Kibagami's Lovecraftian entrance helped me any, but I was running out of adjectives and thought it would be funny. Kib's match was great, even if he confused me with Judge Mental(I've never used the Stretch Plum).

Back on topic to answer Goodear's question: Williams was originally a total Dynamite Kid clone, he even used a ton of his moves. He did a lot of high flying as well, if I recall I even had a Moonsault and some Handspring stuff back than. However, I thought he kind of sucked and that it was stupid to have so many moves and no direction. I decided it would be better to write a much more simpler style as my writing wasn't advanced enough to do what I originally envisioned with the old character. So I started back at square one, totally buterching his moveset down to something like 5 signature moves, and bulked him up 20 pounds. Kawada was indeed a huge influence at this point, since I loved how he could work an entire match around a handful of moves. Keep in mind he's still the same character that did all that flashy stuff in the JL, it's just now he's used to the weight and is feeling good again or something like that. However, I've gradually broken away from that model to do my best to create an original character, though he owes alot to Misawa now more than anybody(not just elbows either). But there's tons of other influences to consider: Destroyer, Hokuto, Hansen, Austin, Santo, Lyger, Robinson, Race, Jumbo, Taue, Eddy, Savage, Hogan...etc. Confused? So am I. Anyway, the best way to invision Williams is a bigger version of the Dynamite Kid. Like DK at his peak, he has decent strength, but is also still agile and athletic.

I was just joking with the last post, who in their right mind would take that seriously? Quit trying to start trouble, and go back to whatever cave you decided to emerge from.

Wow that's so original. Sarcasm detector: beep....beep...beep.beep! BEEP!BEEP!BEEP!BEEP!BEEP!....beep...beep.

"In the context of an AJPW or NJPW match, a long headlock segment does make the attacker appear as an underdog, and if your tastes are primarily skewed towards All Japan and New Japan, you can make a reasonable case against the headlock I wrote" The Nitwits in the New Japan heavyweight division were never smart enough to give a headlock meaning they would rather just lay around in them. But no, this isn't just something that Baba's boys do. This is true in all of wrestling, and you can find it almost anywhere. Hart does it against the vetern IC Champion Piper at Wrestlemania 9, and Steamboat does it against Flair at Chi-Town. If I recall corretly Benjeman even did against HHH not to long ago. It's not apples and oranges, it's all heavyweight pro style. "HHH controlling Spike Dudley for a long period of time with a headlock seems perfectly reasonable because HHH is big, Spike is small, and HHH is an asshole." Unless he's motivated, HHH isn't exactly fantastic at making his opponents look good. He has nothing to gain by controlling Spike with a headlock, bad move. Besides my main quarrel is the slide to floor spot off the rope run, it's a determination spot, which is why I don't think Kibs should have used it. "Daniels/Dragon and choose to view the headlock as a well-executed wrestling sequence that has a lot of purpose, fits Kibagami's background as an experienced veteran, and isn't commonly seen in North American wrestling." But London was playing the fiesty underdog in those matches....if that's the match your refering too. Dragon was the dick. "I understand you're reluctant to acknowledge perception as an arguable point, but that's just something you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on." In my analysis I'm not interested in other's perception, it's how I see the match. By the way it was a wonderfully written sequence, I've never denied that.

Let's not turn this into a flame war..mkay. But if you want to threaten me with flames, bring them, because your opinion means nothing to me anyway. However I must warn you that I will not waste the time to respond to your nonsense, so that takes half the fun out of it. Have I not apologized about my past behavior, and have I not ceased from flaming the markers for their decisions? Yes. So quit living in the past. The way I see it King took a jab at me, and I threw one back. The sigh following my post, made it seem like it was at directed me. I don't find that to be a kind response when from my perspective I'm just trying to liven up the comment folder. Sure Kibs got a little grumpy as he admits, but that isn't my fault. If you don't like the discussion, start your own, and quit bitching about these horrible "Wrestling fans" that's ruined this once great federation. The tone of this conversation between me and Kibs is fine since we've seemed to hav squared everything away. It was fine before than, though I think him rolling out the "purofag" stuff was uncalled for. But it's all cool now.