Coffin Surfer

Watch Misawa/Kobashi 10/97. Misawa does an excellent job of putting over Kobashi's neckwork. Near the end of the match, Misawa's neck was so brittle it just took one chop to it for him to collaspe in pain, and later in the match he was unable to hold the Tiger Suplex 85 brige. Or you could do just like Terry Funk, make half your body go limp, and hop up and down like you got water you in your ear.

Don't worry about it, my best match(against Jay Dawg) won by default as well. It doesn't take away anything from your match, because it was very good. The beginning was excellent with the brawling in the crowd. Though it was 6000, the match did feel short, and seemed to lack a middle as the match just kind of jumps to the ending with the Germans. Still this was suppose to be a quick intense brawl so it works for what it is. I was also impressed with how you kept the whole match low key(with the exception of the ending of course), something I also planned on doing. I didn't like the delayed selling bit with the Powerbomb, in fact I don't like delayed selling at all. It's just something that Kobashi started doing in 95, because he totally lost his fucking mind, and forgot to put together a match. Misawa followed in 97, because he was too lazy to work brilliant 5 minute transition sequences anymore. You could have easily accomplished the same thing by just having Va'aiga escape the Powerbomb, land in front of Danny, and than blast him. Still, I was very impressed with your match, and you deserved the win. Oh, and I like long fueds, I just never had the opportunity to be in one.

From the word count thread: "Couldn't finish. I did turn something in so it wouldn't count as an official no show. My apologies to Va'aiga, and everyone looking forward to the match. I just have too much damn school work this semster, and it's only gonna get worse until it's over. I tried to come back, but school wouldn't let me." Hopefully, next semester won't be as bad, and you can defiantly expect to see me back come December." The match was barely half way done, and I ran out of time just as I was getting to the build toward the finish. So i just tacked on a sudden pin to make it a complete match. Once again, I apologize for not giving you any competition. Besides, what I did have was rushed and underwhelming anyways.

Couldn't finish. I did turn something in so it wouldn't count as an official no show. My apologies to Va'aiga, and everyone looking forward to the match. I just have too much damn school work this semster, and it's only gonna get worse until it's over. I tried to come back, but school wouldn't let me. Hopefully, next semester won't be as bad, and you can defiantly expect to see me back come December.

Hansen also had excellent matches with Andre the Giant, Hulk Hogan, and 80s broken down Baba. Obviously not as great as Kobashi, Misawa, and Kawada singles matches, but given the time period, those matches were about as good as Hansen could get out of em.

I'm not a fan of the so called Malenko/Guerrero classics in ECW. Of the three that I've seen, Hostile City Showdown was probably the best, since Guerrero inserted himself much more and did his best to keep it from becoming a Malenko wrestling jerk off. Take for instance when they lose the crowd during the test of strength spot, Guerrero smartly cuts the sequence short and hits the Uranage Suplex to get the crowd's attention again. But still, you have stuff like the 2 minute top wristlock to remind you that this is a Dean Malenko match. It's not bad, but it is dull at times, and way short of greatness.

You mean Stan Hansen Even he's a better pick than Foley. Even him? What's that suppose to imply? Flair, Austin, and Bret Hart's best can't touch Stan Hansen's best performances.

Minus tons of intensity and emotion. The way Funk and Jumbo battled over every single hold like their lives depended on it is something you just don't get out of Flair/Steamboat. The way Jumbo displayed his overwhelming determination as he wills his way out of the Surfboard or as he hangs on to the wristlock while Steamboat was always cold and calm while working the holds. And Flair never showed the desperation that Funk did as the match progressed and he was becoming increasingly closer to being overwhelmed.

Kawada can be very animate when the situation calls for it. For instance in the heated six man tags against Jumbo co., Kawada would do stuff like flip Jumbo off while torturing his protege, Taue, with a Scorpion Deathlock. And Flair begging off, and strutting doesn't make me quiver either. It makes me chuckle though. Jumbo, Hansen, and what not all have their trademark taunts as well. In fact: Jumbo's arm raise>Flair's "whoo". See the crowd in Jumbo's 10/91 match against Kawada for one of the most surreal taunt responses off all time. Every one in the entire building is standing, and pumping their arm in the air with Jumbo. I'm not even gonna bother to get into guys like Lyger, who outclass Flair in the mannerism department so bad that it's not even funny. As far as speaking skills goes, Hokuto totally kills Flair in ever department(except maybe humor), and I don't even understand what she's saying. See her "promos" leading up and after the Kandori match for some very powerful stuff. And Kawada shed actual tears during his interview after his last match with Kobashi/Kikuchi as his teammates. Or how about the look on his face when realizes he lost 6/3/94. Such a hearbreaking moment, that connected with me more than anything Flair ever did. In his 96 match with Black Tiger(Eddy), with smart work and excellent timing, Beniot gets killer heel heat from a crowd that is normally dead during junior matches. I've never seen Flair control the crowd as well as Eddy and Beniot did that night. So it's not sick and wrong, it at times is absolutely correct.

Hmmm, I didn't think you were the one who made the first post, my mistake. As earlier, I've probably just confused your posts with someone elses again. I certaintly didn't construct this list, which along with any other list has every right to be criticized. I fail to see how anybody made this into a big deal. In the end, my case can be summed up as this: I feel that Rey/Eddy is a great match. One of the few matches from the U.S. that can reasonably hold it's own with the more advanced matches that have occured in Japan and Mexico over the past 30 years or so. I still wouldn't put it in my overall top 50 though. But it is probably both men's best matches to happen in the U.S. Given the pace and storyline of the match I feel that Rey's selling was solid. On the otherhand, you feel that with the fast pace it comes across as Rey brushing off Eddy's offense. You also disagree about the match's storyline, and feel that Rey's selling of the back should have played a bigger role in the match. Sorry if I misinterrupted any of your ideas, but that's the impression that I got. This is hardly a big deal, just a difference of opinion. While I feel your argument is flawed, I do respect that you actually gave reasoning behind your opinion, and explained why you feel the way you do about the match.

Your are aware that Hogan, Lugar, Mutoh, and Ricky Choyshu were all trained by Hiro Matsuda. Or that Jumbo Tsuruta did some training under Terry and Dory Funk. When had to pay his dues, Kawada was sent to America for some training in the 80s. And if the styles are so different, than why is that Harley Race, Terry Funk, the Destroyer, Billy Robinson, Stan Hansen, Steven Williams, Terry Gordy could all have great matches with the natives. Even Ric Flair had some good matches with Jumbo. You know Beniot did some of his best work in Japan with the natives as well. edit: Forgot about the Can-Am Connection and Fantastics having great matches in All Japan in the 90s.

Me deal with it? Your the one who started this debate. I've done nothing but defend my opinion, which is why I've even bothered to respond to your mislead match analysis. I think Eddy/Rey Havoc 97 is the best match I've ever seen on U.S. soil, now can you deal with it. I've already explained why your arguments are thin to respond to your post further, I would have to repeat myself over and over again, which is a waste of time.

"Okay, I haven't said anything about Bret/Owen. That was someone else. Still, it really doesn't take a lot of balance to climb up to the top turnbuckle, but it does however to SPRINGBOARD on the middle of the ROPE. Difference? I could climb up using the turnbuckle, but Bret at 200% wouldn't be able to leap up and balance himself on the rope and jump off." Why would he sell his leg after the suplex? He landed on his back. Bret hobbles around the ring the whole time, and he gets thrown into the turnbuckle by Owen. Bret never runs. He might take a few steps before he jumps with the bulldog but that's not something that's even noticeable. After the KO spot (and a good 3 minutes of back work), Rey runs into the rope and dropkicks Eddy making him fall to the outside. He then gets up, runs to one side, runs to the other side, and JUMPS on the turnbuckle and JUMPS again over the rope." Your still not getting the point are you? I could argue that using a springboard uses your arms and legs, not your back. And that to perform a top rope Superplex requires use of you legs. Bret does indeed run after the leg work, and at times forgets to sell it(nobody can sell something 100% of the time). Do you see how empty these criticisms are, that is my point. Your argument is weak and flat out silly at parts. "Let's see, what else? Oh, I NEVER SAID THE MATCH WAS BAD!! For the third fucking time, I'm saying it was great, but it wasn't anywhere near the best match on US soil. My arguments essentially amount to that even for a 10 minute match, it wasn't perfect. Perhaps that's why they seem thin to you." Indeed. That is exactly why your argument is thin. Do you know how easy it is to prove that a match isn't perfect? Very easy, because no match is perfect, regardless the length. "I don't think they were trying to tell the story of Rey being so awesome that nothing Eddy could do would affect him in the slightest, but maybe that's just me." If that's the story you see, than it's obvious you don't understand the match. "Don't try to act like he wasn't attempting to limit Rey's offense. That's total bullshit." If that was the story than why was there no planned spots to reinforce this point? Spots by definition are planned out in advance, and if that's the story, than don't you think there would be a spot where Rey tried to hit a move, but couldn't because of his back or ribs? Oddly enough, all the spots have Eddy countering a move because he was a step ahead of Rey not because the pain in his back was too intense. "He attacks his back for the entire match from the start when he takes a huge back bump onto the concrete. Not his body, his back." There's some rib work snuck in there as well, Abdominal Stretch and what not, giving the impression that Eddy is working the body in general. Back is a huge focal point though, but that doesn't change the fact that it all seemed to be for offensive purposes. "Rey actually does sell it like it is killing him, but ONLY when Eddy is working on him. When he's on attack, he becomes SUPER MEGA INVINCIBLE FEELS NO PAIN Rey. " I've done gone over this with you, Rey always makes sure to put over Eddy's offense before going back on offense.

Have you seen their earlier matches? Plenty of phantom strikes to be found, mostly on Tiger Mask's part. And if were talking bumping here, yeah DK bumped like a mad man in those matches, but oddly enough, I've seen Harley Race out bump him in stuff like the 77 Jumbo match(on a harder canvas). It wasn't really until the later matches that Tiger Mask started connecting with his kicks, and pretty much every thing else. If you grimace watching those matches, I'd hate see what you would do when watching Hansen vs. Kawada 2/93. Now those are some sick knee drops. I shudder when I think of the sling shot knee drop where Hansen comes down with all his weight on Kawada's chest. In the words of Kawada, when he took it.. "DOH-OH-WHOA!" And the tombstones they used were obviously protected, even the cradle variation DK experimented with.

Just one more thing about Chaosrage's problems with Eddy/Rey 97 to prove my point about as to why his argument is thin. He suggests Owen/Bret Wrestlemania X is better. But if you take his argument about the body work in Havoc 97 and apply it to this match here's what you get: Despite having his leg worked on for several minutes, Bret makes a comeback and hits a piledriver. Bret sells the leg, and Vince comments that with every move he does it's doing more damage to the leg. Still limping, Bret than places Owen on the top rope, climbs up as well and hits the Superplex. Climbing up on the top rope, requires a great deal of a balance, especially with somebody else already up there. You can't do that with a bad knee! OMG, he's shattering Kayfabe! He's exposing the business! RVD would have climbed up, and than fail off. After the Suplex Bret doesn't even sell the leg until he gets up, but when he's trading shots with Owen, and running with the Sleeper, he has no limp? Bret limps as he gets up, and than runs after a whip reversal with no problem. His selling is spotty! Note: These are not my true feeling on the match, I'm just showing that you can take any match and do this so sort of shit to make it look bad. No I'm gonna use the ever acclaimed Wrestlewar 89 match to make a case for my stance on why it's important to understand the story the wrestler's are tyring to tell. Steamboat works over the arm, the entire match. But when Flair is on offense, he has no problem in using his left arm to throw Steamboat around with Suplexes and what not. With the exception of a shake or two, Flair does 90% of his selling of the arm while Steamboat is working on it. If you didn't understand the story, you could call this no selling. Maybe this is because much like the body work in Eddy/Rey, the arm was used as a set up for the other guy's offense, a focal point to give him an edge, and possibly set up the Double arm Chickenwing as was continously brought up by J.R. The arm work was not intended to limit Flair's offense, which is why it was not sold as such. I imagine that Eddy chose to work over Rey's body because he didn't want to limit what he could do. If he worked over the arm or leg, Rey would have to no sell it to perform his springboards(like in the Malenko match). Eddy focused on the body, more than likely so he could have a focal point on offense, while still given Rey the opportunity to hit his high spots.

I don't think watching Takada would effect your ratings of DK/Tiger Mask. But it would make you change your assumption that DK was a shoot style worker. DK learned hard hitting pro style, not shoot style. There's alot more to shoot style than working stiff, it's for the most part suppose to be the absence of corporation spots(whips, high flying, jumping on lifts...etc.) to create a more realistic presention. DK/Tiger Mask certaintly don't lack corporation spots. And for their matches weren't really stiff(see Tiger Mask's glancing kicks in their 81 match) until their later meetings(see his kicks make contact in the 83 2/3 falls match). I think Dragonfly's conservative ratings with the accompinement of a quote that explains his overall view on the series, and why he doesn't put them so high helps alot more than random snow flakes being tossed out.

Dynamite Kid.....the shoot style worker? Alot of snow flakes at the end too. Dragonfly Kid in the matches to check out thread has alot more realistic and helpful rating of the series in the matches to check out thread.

Chaosrage, I will say this. You are not understanding the story that Eddy/Rey were trying to tell. The story was not that Eddy was limiting Rey's offense with his body work. I've done explained this. When you watch a match it's important to understand what the wrestlers are trying to do, and the story they are trying to tale, rather than the story you want them to tell. You can pick apart any match with that criteria, which is why it's thin and pointless. Rey didn't sell that much on offense, because that wasn't the intent of the body work. I also get the impression that you just don't like or understand lucha or the junior style in general, and dismissing it because it's not a U.S. heavyweight pro style match. The fast pace, vast amount of moves, and brief selling(not no selling) is something they do to stand out from the heavies. If you don't like the style in general, you don't. And the stuff in the WWE for the most part is not junior style wrestling, it's small guys wrestling the same style as the big guys with a few more high flying moves.

Lies one and all! Well I don't know about Magnum so much (although his 'I quit' match with Tully Blanchard gets the most press), but Sting's best matches were with Vader and Vader's were probably in Japan. Flair totally didn't jell with Vader in my opinion. Flair probably had 'the best matches' with Windham, Kollof and Kerry Von Erich though. To add to this: In probably his best career performance, Vadar dragged a great match out of Inoki's crusty corpse, meanwhile he couldn't do anything above average with Flair's crusty corpse. Not to mention the Inoki match is better than anything Flair's ever done. Does that make Vadar a better worker than Flair, I don't know, but it does make you think. But Vadar's best matches were with Takada in UWFi. Amazing that he could stroll in there and have matches of that level with Takada in the shoot style setting. Don't get me wrong, it's Takada's matches, but still it showed that Vadar could keep up with one of the best in an alien setting.

"I said it was great, I just don't call it one of the best matches ever or anything close to that. There's only so much story you can tell in a 10 minute match. Other cruiser weight matches were about 20-30 minutes and they did the same sort of stuff. " I wouldn't call it one of the best matches either, not even cracking my top 50. "RVD probably has better selling now than Rey did in WCW, heh." I don't watch the WWE anymore, but judging from the rest of your arguments I WON'T take your word for it. "Well it should be a double KO spot since that was you know, the only move he did in about 3 minutes. What about the part where he gets up and runs around the ring?" After the double k.o spot when he puts Eddy's offense behind him. "True, but Rey is so much better at selling now it's unbelievable. He actually works it into his moveset, look at the match with Hardy where he won the belt. You can really tell the difference if you sit down and watch the wcw and wwe matches back to back on the DVD." Rey's slowed down now over injuries, and he's starting to work more in the U.S. pro style since he moved to WWE(more simple work like limb selling and what not). The addition of more prominent limb selling hardly makes Hardy/Rey superior to Eddy/Rey. "Then he's all better 10 seconds later as if nothing happened to him doing perfect springboards and moonsaults. " No, he sells/rests after the plancha, and than moves on. Everybody has to no sell a little when they go back on offense, that's the way it is. "Eh..... I don't think so. If his back is hurting as much as it's supposed to, he wouldn't be able to jump on the top rope. Things like that bring the match down. " So I guess Rey isn't suppose to do anymore moves for the rest of the match. I think I'm gonna quit responding now, because thin arguments like this are a waste of time.

-The back/body work was more or less just wear down offense used in the brief body of the match. It's purpose was to give Eddy a focused attack, and possibly be used as a set up for the Frog splash. It was never forgotten, and it would smoothly come back into play during transition sequences in later parts of the match. It doesn't surprise me that it wasn't sold on offense that much since that wasn't really the storyline they were going for. But Rey did sell the toll of the offense, and never did a Toyota, where he would just hop up after being stretched out. Still, this isn't as great a match as Toyota/Kong, but that's an entirely different topic. -I don't think that was a blown spot, it looked intentional, and I think I've seen Eddy use the same counter to a Sasuke cartwheel once(I might have be mistaken though). Even if it was a blown spot, accidents happen, and as long as it doesn't totally kill the match I don't care. 12/6/96 has a blown crouching spot but it's still the greatest men's match of all time. -This is lucha influenced Pro Style, if you don't like it watch Shoot style. -Eddy/Rey is a very advanced match where they managed to somehow logically build a match with almost nothing but high spots while telling a good mutli-layered story: power vs. speed, a frustrated Rudo Eddy's attempts at humilating Rey, Rey defending his mask and pride against a guy who may finally have his number). Excellent stuff. Alot of people forget how well booked the match was, and how it seemed like Eddy was surely gonna go over Rey. Than you watch the match, Rey's usual tricks weren't working, and the last counter of the springboard Hurricanrana to set up the Frog Splash was just brilliant match construction and timing. Bret/Owen, Flair/Windham, and Eddy/Rey all do a good job of telling stories with their actions. It's just that Eddy/Rey managed to cut off the fat, and present it's story in a much more advanced, exciting way with almost every move and transition reinforcing the match's main theme while pushing the story along and furthering the match. Also you could make a good argument for Ultimo/Rey being Rey's best WCW match, which I'm surprised hasn't been brought up. -I dig the hell out of the first two Clash falls, even though the first fall does have the stuck in neutral problem. By neutral, I mean they don't do a good job of progressing the match from point A to B, they tend to go from A to A to A(ex. repeated grounded headlock roll up, same counters to the same holds). But this really isn't as big a problem as it would be at Wrestlewar. Chi-Town does this as well, but overall it's the more solid match, mostly because of it's short length, and they do further the match alot better than in Wrestlewar. As far as psychology goes, Wrestlewar is about as solid as you can get. Leg to set up figure four, arm to set up Double Chickenwing. But Steamboat get's a little to much caught up with the arm strategy, and as a result the match tends to get stuck in neutral alot. Not to mention that the Clash match is actually a bit more deeper, with them doing a better job of directly playing off the previous matches and builing off the prevoius falls. I would Clash as the best, but the redundant by the numbers third fall puts slightly below Chi-Town IMO.

Some quick comparisions. Flair-Steamboat (Chi Town)-I really like this match, but like most Flair/Seamboat matches it gets stuck in neutral and has trouble progressing. Eddy/Rey doesn't have that problem. Flair-Steamboat (Wrestlewar)-See Chi Town but not as good. Flair-Steamboat (Clash)-Third fall is too flawed to properly compete with a match as solid as Eddy/Rey. Flair vs. Funk-Bash match is good, and the I Quit match is just above average thanks to no selling face Flair. While Eddy/Rey stands out as one of the best WCW crusier matches, neither Flair/Funk match can stand out as the best NWA heavyweight match. Mahnum T.A. vs. Tully-A true masterpeice. Though sadly, it can't even hold up to the Kawada/Taue blood baths in the early 90s(which aren't even great matches). But as far as NWA brawls go, it doesn't get much better. As far as Eddy/Rey goes, I think the more advanced and deeper match wins out here. Wargames 1 (GAB 87) Wargames (Wrestlewar 92)-I like them, but Eddy/Rey is more complex and it only has two people in it. Bret-Flair (Ironman)-Never saw, but I would like to, need to. Bret-Owen (Wrestlemania X)-Nowhere near as advanced as Eddy/Rey(and I'm not just talking about moves). Flair-Vader (Starcade 93)-Your joking right.....right? Sting-Vader (Bash)-I love Vader, and I love this match. But honestly, Eddy/Rey is actually the better power vs. speed match. Bret-Austin (Survivor Series) Bret-Austin (Wrestlemania)-You can make a good argument for either being better than Eddy/Rey. Steiners vs. Sting/Luger-Good sprint, and not much else. Steiners vs. Hart Foundation-Solid tag match, probably better than the one above that gets more love. Benoit vs. Regal-Was this even taped? Benoit vs. Hart Benoit vs. Malenko-Haven't saw either since they originally aired. I would love to look at them again after all these years, but I probably wouldn't like them as much as I did than, considering I've seen so much more wrestling now. Flair vs. Whindam (Crocket Cup) Flair vs. Windham (Worldwide)-Some good stuff here. Neither is as complex as Eddy/Rey, but still very good. Midnight Express vs. The Fantastics (Clash 1) Bryan Danielson vs. Paul London (4/12/03)-I haven't seen either. I need more Midnight Express in my life. Obviously it's tough to fairly compare a match as modern and advanced as Eddy/Rey with some of these matches. You can be nice and use the era excuse, but still alot of 70s stuff smokes Flair/Steamboat 89 too.

That's fair enough. When it comes to comparing the best U.S. matches, it can be tricky considering that there alot of solid matches worked in very different ways. You should probably give Chris' review of Micheals/Mankind a look at airraidcrash. I'm pretty sure it can explain the match better than me. It's not a great match, but it's still good. Rock/Austin is very good if you can look past the on/off again rules and all the interferance. Beniot did do a great job of building to the headbutt, as well as the Scoprion Deathlock at the beginning. That's something you don't see in the WWF very often(in fact, not at all), very All Japanesque. But still, Beniot can't wrestle for two. Angle does alot of things that bug me in the match, the missed Lariat overkill transition comes to mind. And I really dislike all those crossface/anklelock counters at the end, but I did think the Angleslam counter to the crossface was well done. I don't know, the jury is out on this one until I can watch it again.

I should probably change my wording to the best match on U.S. soil that I've seen. Since I obviously haven't seen everything, bad choice of words on my part. Speaking of which, I haven't seen any ROH, but it's on the to get list. I would be the first to admit that I haven't seen alot of Lucha, but I really wouldn't consider myself a "fan" of U.S. wrestling, since 90% of what I've watched out of the past three years has been from Japan. I do understand what your saying. If someone has never seen lucha, it would be easy to overrate the match. I agree very much. But regardless, were discussing U.S. wrestling not all of North Amercia. And in the U.S., I haven't seen a match that works quite as well as Rey/Eddy. I don't agree with the spotty observation. The spots are all set up well, built to nicely, and progress the match, so I really don't have a problem with them. I do agree with the cliched ending observation. Rey finished Juvi several times with this in both Mexico and ECW, and it would have been nice to see something different, but oh well.

I might give you match of the night. It's great, but for one thing, it's fucking short, and for another, Mysterio does the same kind of selling in it everyone always bitches at RVD about. That match is sooo overrated on this board. I don't have a problem with the length of the match. Given the pace, and the build, it all fits together rather smoothly. If there is a rule that match must be 30 mins to be great, I certaintly don't abide by it. I've never seen RVD in a match as good as this. Rey did a pretty good job of putting over Eddy's wear down offense inbetween transitions like the very brief double k.o. spot after the springboard DDT. As in most junior or lucha matches, some selling is sacrificed to keep the pace up. Still most of the transition sequences are smarter and longer than most heavyweight matches. For instance, Eddy crouching himself after missing the baseball slide, gives Rey plent of time to go back on offense with a plancha, which gives him even more time to sell. The flapjack/wheel kick transition near the end, where Rey slowly crawls to the outside and gingerly stands up is another good transition sequence. Or even the missed Frog Splash before Rey's final desperation reversal. Despite the frantic pacing of the match, both guys do an excellent job of putting over the other's attacks.