Promoter

I love my conspiracies(since the tv product isn't creating any) and I wonder if Vince is doing a reverse situation of 1997. Remember, he wanted Bret to job and go with HBK in what could have been a burial. He already knew he had to spend the big bucks on Mike Tyson for WM 14. What if Vince pulled the same stunt with Austin this past week because he's going to spend big bucks to bring back Hart for Mania? It would be ironic, but........ A triple threat match between Hart/HBK/Austin at WM 22 would be more fitting since... 1. In Chicago 2. Ten year anniversary of ironman match 3. The place where Austin turned face and led the "new generation" 4. The place where Hart and HBK were suppose to headline the rematch 5. HBK could carry the match

This is like comparing liquid shit from solid shit. In the end, it's all still shit. Cena isn't as bad as the people you mentioned, but he still isn't even average. I mean, Trish Stratus does better worked punches than Cena for God's sake. Cena is over enough to be in the ME, however his in ring is not main event level IMO. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually, I'm going to have to agree with this. My more markish friends even notice how terrible he does his punching. Honestly, his in ring work needs well...work. The funny thing is that rumour around Mania that had Cena working with Steamboat to improve and it seems that was a complete lie or Cena doesn't learn too well or quick.

Thankfully, The Rock and Steve Austin avoided this. I wonder if it had to do with Vince Russo just leaving the damn characters alone. It also had to do with both guys knowing how to handle turning face and having mass appeal which comes with seasoning. I won't get into how I think Rock stole some of Austin's style to keep his heel edge as a face, but I did worry about Austin when the wwe started making him say "hell yeah" to the crowd. If you see Austin of 1996-97 you will see interviews where he didn't want the crowd cheering for him and he still got over when he was dissing them. The wwe is afraid of letting Cena do this. The Rock did the same thing with sing a long with the champ. It seems Vince and Steph always have to "tinker" with the guys rising to the top to make sure they had their hand in making him a money player. HHH couldn't even avoid it in 2002. He started to do those lame ass poses for face pops that looked stupid. It's also true it takes years for someone to become a real main eventer. They have rushed Batista and Cena and not given proper time to Benoit and Eddie as main eventers. The proof with Eddie is there. Now, they are wondering if to turn him back heel or not because he's back to the same babyface heat he had when they were pushing him to the title. I think most of the times, when fans choose someone to rally behind they would usually stick with the person, but the booking starts to change with that person and turns fans on the person.

I don't think anyone here really HATES the wwe. They are just passionate about it. Vince even realizes this as he said it on OTR or something along those lines unless he was just lying. You see when the wwe is actually hitting on all cylinders it's hard for the IWC to rip on it. As I stated earlier, when the wwe was suffering blows from wcw the fans actually stuck with it because in all honesty they were trying their best to win back the audience. They just didn't have that much depth, but it was hard to ridicule them when the company was putting out stuff like the USA/Canada storyline and matches like Bret/Austin or HBK putting on a strong string of excellent matches as wwe champion. WCW was getting lambasted just like wwe is today and they did not listen to the red flags. WCW paid the net no mind and then Russo showed up and tried to listen to everything the net said and tanked because really no one cared at that point and Russo needs an editor for his writing. By the time, Russo listened to the net for wcw the fanbase had dwindled and was nowhere the level it was during the boom years. The wwe on the other hand, they did stuff like changing the finish to matches to screw with the IWC predicting tag title wins and whatnot. They would also "leak" the planned cards or ideas for Mania 14 to get feedback on what the fans thought about the direction. The net was also new back then and it was a new source to draw in fans. Somewhere down the line the wwe took wcw's philosophy and we got the wrestlers such as Brock threatening to kill people who go on the net The net is not the whole problem because half the damn audience that was once on it are no longer on it. Look how many websites were up and running during the boom compared to today. They should care that people are even bothering to come on the websites still. I also don't completely buy the internet spoiling everything because I did not see on one website Goldust, Vader, Duggan, etc showing up on raw this week. I still don't understand how they kept Bischoff appearing on RAW for the first time secret. It can be done.

Goldust aint bad. Vader on the other hand falling down all over the place We know they can't write comedy like that! Besides....we got to get Randall Orton and Bob Orton Jr. vs. Dusty and Dustin Rhodes vs. Ric Flair and his teenager son vs. Vince and Shane Mcmahon vs. Hogan and his daughter vs. Bret and Teddy Hart in the ultimate family feud. Linda will be special referee.

This is just tradition. People root for the guy to become the world champion and then turn on him. Now, I'm not saying some of it is not justified by the masses. Actually, it kind of started at the MSG RAW earlier this year and I did see this coming since the JBL feud. The answer is not to take the belt off Cena right now. THAT will really screw him up. It will look like he was a failure as champion. That is where they royally screwed Shawn Michaels in 1996. What happens is that fans expect the wrestler to turn it up a notch as champion as someone noted. When they take the belt off prematurely it only re-inforces the idea the fans had that he wasn't worthy as champion. This is not all Cena's fault. He was really more over on smackdown and when he got sent to RAW it was a good idea, but they messed him up from the get go. Angle/HBK's rematch was being done at Vengence and we know how those guys ripped up their match at Mania. That takes away some of the shine off Cena arriving. Batista and HHH go into a HIAC match and third encounter where people expected HHH to get the belt back. Then you cut the legs off the Christian/Cena series by adding Jericho and they make Cena look like he was the champion of the B show for real. Then they move to SummerSlam and Hulk Hogan returns for his first singles match in about a year and half. They put him in a match against Shawn Michaels of all people and HBK finally gets entertaining in the form of his DX days. That overshadows the title feud with Jericho. Cena is NOT looking like the real WWE Champion in all of this. Then Cena finally starts to get main event shine and he's jobbing out to Angle in non-title matches. How can the masses take Cena as a serious champion with all this going down. Compare this to Batista's treatment on Smackdown when he went to that show defeating the man on RAW HHH 3 times in a row. Then Cena isn't helping with the crappy Rock lite jokes and doesn't actually do the schtick he did to get over in the first place by doing edgy rhymes and letting the audience finish it with a curse word. It's quite easy to see why fans are turning on the guy and not to mention his superman strength that has been given to him. Then top all of that with the Mcmahons returning on RAW and not even bothering with the WWE Champion because they rather go against a "real star" in Steve Austin and you're going to have problems. Bischoff is then fed to bother with Cena. Tell me, how does this look to fans who were behind Cena during the Mania build when he was booked as being anti-establishment and facing the longest reigning champion of the last decade? They need to keep the belt on Cena and put the focus on him. If the fans continue to boo, have him turn on the fans and cut the flowmos that made him get over in the first place. He was once the franchise of smackdown and a cocky bastard. Now he's out there telling gay jokes and kissing babies in the chain gang. This sounds exactly like HBK and the Kliq that did not vibe with the cocky bastard that got over at WM 11 as a friggin heel. They took the title off HBK at MSG for the same reason some are saying here, but as soon as they did that the fans wanted the belt back on Shawn. All it did was damage HBK's reign. HBK also didn't have Hogan, Austin, HHH, etc all being touted as returning back home to overshadow him either. Diesel is kind of the same story. Once they started to give him his edge back as a tweener he became less boring and probably more over. It only made him become a stronger draw that went to wcw. Cena for the most part imo is not the problem, the booking of the champion is. I swear Cena could come up with better material, but they probably tell him to do gay jokes all the time because that's what Eminem did a couple of years ago to get heat. It simply isn't working.

Vince will look at the ratings and still blame the audience. I can only imagine what Vince will do if ratings start to go into the original numbers for RAW when they first started on the network.

I know. He still should have jobbed. Ventura could have scoffed at HHH and didn't need to raise his hand. He could have done something similar to Slam '88 where he was forced to do a count. Triple H earlier in the summer "crippled" Mankind and he could have done so against Austin and win the strap to tremondous heel heat. This is why it took HHH so long to get heel heat as champion because he got his first title reign in lame fashion. This could have been WM 16 six months earlier. He would have Austin and Foley chasing him for the title with actual heat. We saw how trash was thrown into the ring at that event for Triple H retaining.Of course, the wwe did not think of HHH in that big heel that upsets tradition around SummerSlam '99.

No, I'm talking about Jake The Snake against Savage in 1986 on SNME for the IC title in a weird heel vs. heel match. Ventura even had to comment that he was surprised the crowd "was for The Snake". It was funny because that same day on Superstars Savage did the infamous attack on Steamboat with the ring bell. I think the match was taped before that incident, but I could be wrong. So, I wonder if Hogan felt it was going against the grain when Steamboat and Savage stole the show at Mania 3?

The sports team is a good analogy. Anyone who was on the damn internet or in the crowds during the monday night wars can attest to that. A BIG reason the wwe held water during '96 and '97 when nitro was killing them was that a lot of fans felt obligated to stick with the wwf because of what they did in the 80's. Nitro on the other hand had the stars of the 80's and a lot of those fans stuck with nWo and wcw simply because of that. Some were wcw fans through and through and were happy their "team" was finally winning against the monster wwf. I think the current wwf has more to do with them just being completely clueless*along with RRR saying Vince doesn't have competition to steal his ideas and talent from* and having their priorities screwed up. I mean this JR thing is enough proof to show they have their head up their asses, but are shoving it right in our face to tell us that we have our head up our asses. I hope that makes some sense as I'm sure Stephanie also feels the fans aren't being creative with the bitching too. If this rumour is true, Vince please put on our tv screens Katie Vick vs. Deadman Undertaker. You never did follow up on that. Let Taker come back from the dead with Paul Bearer too. Forget the wrestling matches and give us HHH and Steph's wedding on live tv for the third time. Ted Turner vs. Vince Mcmahon should be the real dream match at Mania with 24/7 and CNN on the line. Yeah, that's the ticket. Concentrate on everything, but the rasslin.

Maybe it had to do with Bischoff's cheap Mcmahon evil boss gig to end last week's show. I mean having Linda, Vince, and Stephanie is bad enough. Throw in Bischoff and you got the symptoms of clicker happy fingers.

A big(ger) problem was that Ventura, as governor, wouldn't raise the hand of a heel. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think Austin should have jobbed to HHH that night personally in a singles match with how things turned out. It also seems that Cena is getting HBK '96 Survivor Series treatment at the moment because he's lost his edge. Boy, 10 years later and the wwe still does the same mistake. We were lucky Austin and Rock kept their edge as face champions. I don't think Cena is getting booed because fans think he all of a sudden sucks. I think it has all to do with the Diesel/HBK baby kissing syndrome of '95-96. Cena as a heel was the most edgy character of the new batch of guys. I could see them replacing Hogan vs Cena where Cena turns heel and defends the title in Hogan's "last title shot". That may work, but taking the title off Cena won't do them any favours simply because some fans are booing him. The bigger problem is that they ruined the most over character they had with this corporate thug crap. I bet once Cena turns up his edge if allowed along with cutting out the superman phase the crowd won't be booing him anymore. That is the problem with Cena right now moreso than being champion.

Okay, let us know if they sweeten the Snake Pit with Hogan. I've read in the past that when Jake DDT'ed Hogan the crowd popped for the move and they nixed the Hogan feud. It could be folklore, but heel Jake would get pops against Savage during his heel reign as IC champ too(that match should be on there from snme).

I think Shane is the boss for wwe.com. I see some potential with what is going on there mixing kayfabe with reality and the power 25 stuff. I bet he doesn't bother with creative because his ideas would completely clash with his other family members. It's too bad, maybe Vince should have really let him run wcw and we might be in a better situation today or worse(Vince would ruin that success somehow).

Man.....when they may screw Hogan/Austin's Mania appeal more than Hogan/Flair in the early 90's it is quite scary. I mean I could see dicking around Flair's appeal because of the NWA, but Austin brought them back from the dead and he's being treated like some 90's jobber. Austin should just stay home.

No, I'm not kidding. Duggan, Kamala, and Ko Ko B. Ware are good midcarders from the 80's, but nothing more. How can they be put into the legend status of guys like Hogan and Savage? Then again, they got more charisma than guys like Masters and Coach(yes he's a wrestler for some reason in today's climate). I guess next week we'll have the legendary Brooklyn Brawler show up along with the greatest gimmick of all-time Red Rooster. This is just LAME!!! and I like Duggan, Ko Ko, and Kamala, but leave that stuff for 24/7.

You got to be joking!!! I just re-ordered the channel in the middle of last month. It's the only thing that really makes me still watch. They can't even get THIS right? How can they get this wrong?

I just want to know how Kamala, Ko Ko B. Ware, and Jim Duggan are "legends", while Savage is blackballed?

Is this thread a joke? I mean seriously. I came on the net to read the results of TT another site and then came here and I didn't know this was the reason for Austin not being at the show. Vince Mcmahon is on some serious drugs This is after reading the "conspiracy" thread too. Maybe what someone posted earlier in this thread is true and that Vince probably didn't see Austin as being that great and some of the Austin/Mcmahon storyline is shoot(he did say he didn't understand his popularity before the Austin/Mcmahon storyline). However, Mcmahon did use to promo Austin as being one of the best in the world during commentary before the Bret feud. Who knows? I will say this though. Vince Mcmahon of 2005 would have botched Steamboat/Savage and Hogan/Andre of 1987 by leaps and bounds. That this thing is even a rumour is idiotic. BTW, ROCK STAY THE HELL OUT OF WWE!!! I could only imagine what they would have job happy Rock do. At least he's wised up to the junk they made him do.

RavishingRickRudo hit the nail on the head. This crappy stuff we are getting now is pretty much Vince in '95 mode in terms of stubborn arrogance and not changing with the times. Too bad Bischoff's an old goat and Heyman's stuck in OVW. I will say Vince was a genius to get these men under his thumb and buying out their organizations. He's definitely paying for it now. It's also too bad Russo was a one trick pony that DID help Mcmahon turn his company around. Vince didn't listen to Russo about bringing back wcw when they brought back Bischoff. IMO, the fans were ready for a REAL brand extension then. It could have worked. Anyways, it looks like Steph has taken the "genius" of her father and HHH has taken the "booking skills" of Flair in that he can only book excellent angles for himself and the big gold belt. Hey, at least they got 24/7!!

They shoud put this thing into storylines on television. They could do a lot with it, but I bet egomaniacs would start crying about their spots.

This thread is hilarious. To think it has reached over five pages about friggin JR shows how lame the wwe is getting. Things that stuck out in this thread that the wwe should worry about are..... HHH did this SAME DAMN skit involving Hurricane not too long ago and it sucked then. Why would they think otherwise this time? Because Vince is the biggest heel in history or something? That some people can't even be bothered to complain about this crap which is why they design these stupid segments to begin with. Vince the live crowd gave you first hand info on what they think about this crap. Get a clue. People defending CRAP is the funniest of all. Seriously, this angle makes no sense as some have said and who REALLY cares about this? This company is really clueless. It's almost astonishing how the wwe can screw up their top babyfaces when they are given the belts. Eddie Guerrero was the first casualty and now John Cena. Again who REALLY cares about this Bischoff nonsense? The wwe is trying to use real life and mix it with kayfabe. They are FAILING miserably. They use to be masters at this such as using Vince's screwjob heat and aligning it with Austin's rising popularity. Having HHH and Steph's relationship on screen. They lucked out with Hardy and Edge and now are using stuff like JR's surgery for trying to get reality-based heat The real sad part as someone mentioned is the wwe actually thinking this stuff up and bothering to waste time and effort into making skits like this. JR vs. Vince at Mania I say for the US title in the main event. I mean that is their logic nowadays. I also think Vince and Steph's little comments towards the fans shows their real frustration. Vince probably does want to fire the fans since they aren't swallowing his crap like they did in 1999. Steph saying the fans aren't original is probably a crack at us complaining about the same junk they do month after month. To me, those promos showed more reality based stuff than anything they've done for a while because they have to be frustrated that they can't get to Russo-like numbers and have superstars as hot as Rock and Austin in their prime.

That's because the people have an out-dated view of sports entertainers, you see. That's their fault. And the medias. I truly feel sorry for the WWE. They have to fight this uphill battle to try and change the perception of their organization and their sports entertainers, and in reality, they have to fight against decades of fashoin faux pas. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> They should worry about fighting against the crap they force us upon us like Orton burining Taker's casket. I mean, anyone who has 24/7 can see Kane do it to him at the Rumble in '98. At least be subtle with the biting and it still won't help Orton gain more heel heat.

I guess everyone just assumed Bischoff's screwed and looked past him

There's no way. They can't make money from running two seperate PPVs a month if they end the split. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Oh, they'll think of something to get into people's pockets. Don't forget that there REALLY ISN'T TWO COMPANIES right now. It's the same company putting on the same ppv shows each month. They could just do the same damn thing under one roof although it would look too obvious as a cash grabber.