Promoter

I know why they did the brand split and in theory it sounded good. I'm not even saying it sucks. What I'm really getting at is this thinking too much in a box? Something might be intrinsically wrong with it, but it's not really being acknowledged for said reason. I don't think this is really a cycle thing. It's the product. Why is it that WrestleMania got a monster buy-rate this year compared to all the other ppv shows? The fans ARE out there. They just aren't interested in the product. It is highly possible the HOF and Piper's Pit was the big draw. I know these guys are legends, but the argument I see sometimes is that wrestling's cyclical, but I think the latest developments show something else. We'll see if RAW's ratings come back stays for long or if it's just a backlash from Mania and the appearances of Hogan and Austin in the last few weeks. I also don't think fans are really buying some of these newer guys in their positions because it seems watered down. The total fanbase is not really smarks, but the general audience can tell the real deal. The mention of 2001 is kind of profound. I just really noticed a lot of my friends who were fanatic about the wwe just simply gave up on them after disappointment after disappointment. They are hardcore fans, but one thing they say about the brand split they don't like is the repeat matches over and over. Business wise we know why they have the brand split, but the bottom line is if it's entertaining to ther masses. Why aren't peopel going to house shows? I think many fans feel the same way and the wwe is not really getting to the heart of the matter. How may times do you hear people complain that the house shows don't matter and that's why they don't attend? Does the wwe LISTEN to this? Or do they write it off as fanatics who are asking for unrealistic stuff to happen? Well, if he had someone breathing down his neck I bet he would find some way to fix it. I just think there must be something wrong with the model and it's hard to see the major problems. I'm saying this because I remember Hulk Hogan saying Vince told him that his time was over in 1992 or so. Yet, Hulk Hogan went on to become one of the greatest heels of all-time about 5 years later. Vince was really determined to have his gimmicks like the Goon thrown on the fans. In wcw, though Bischoff changed things with more real names and less gimmickery. WCW came out of its misery with nitro. It was thought it was suicide to go up against Vince's company and his wrestling philosophy of ppv type main events on free television weekly. In other words, wcw did not think in its own world of a system that was used for years upon years. mean if they had HHH basically given the storyline JBL had, while allowing JBL to develop naturally in the midcard before bringing him straight to the top out of nowhere he might be seen as a better draw. The general masses might simply see him as the guy from APA who got a monster push because the roster is thin on smackdown. Hell, I don't think Cena winning the belt this quick will do him any good, but if he stayed in the midcard this year and then was built up to face HHH at next year's Mania it might have created an atmosphere where the fans demanded it instead of it being forced. Cena is coming off more forced now with the Chain Gang and fan pandering because they wanted him to have a following to crown him champion. This is unlike what they did with HBK, Austin, etc. They guys naturally had their fans demand the championship run. Of course, there is bad to this, but just seeing how things would go the opposite direction without the brand split. Then take into consideration the weekend shows. Who really watches those and why is the company satisfied with those low ratings? There is more than enough time in their programming to give everybody a good amount of time to shine. I don't know maybe the net and the wwe are in a mindset where if it isn't broke don't fix it. The problem with that is I'm pretty sure Vince thought the same thing in the mid 90's. Obviously, he was wrong as wcw helped usher in another boom by changing up until the majority of wrestling fans out there started to pay money for tickets at house shows and buying ppv shows. Vince never dreamt a monday night raw episode would have ever got a rating of over 7.0 in 1995. Is the company really making money in the vien of what they could be making? You got to also take into account that they are the only major wrestling organization in North America. They should be at least doing something similar to the business wcw, ecw, and wwf was doing combined. They are the industry now. It's not really only about them making money too. A lot of fans aren't watching for a good reason and I think the wwe and the net haven't figured it out yet. Mania surprised some net writers because they are also stuck in a box in what works. I'm just trying to garner a good convo going because I've been asked these things by friends who use to watch and honestly I can't answer it. This is not really about being negative or anything, but trying to see what they can do to keep people interested.

The reason I made this thread was to see what everybody's viewpoint of what great booking is. It would help people understand why certain people like certain things that they don't like. Knowing what someone thinks is great or what made them watch consistently will give a good measure on what the wwe is now to not make them click with fans. I mean if WrestleMania got all those damn buys it shows that fans ARE out there. There is something broken. It's like the mid 90's when it didn't seem like things were broken, but when things changed a lot of fans starting watching again. So, Vince had those guys booking until 1992? Why did he change and I suppose the people who took over didn't do that great in 93,93, 94, and 95. I guess in hindsight, wcw his competitor wasn't trailblazing either.

It's true that the internet exploded after HBK was champion, but I don't think the internet today is anywhere close to what it is. Remember 1998 and all those sites from John Petrie-NWWO-Scoops-pwtorch-etc. etc. The internet doesn't really have to be a death knell to wrestling. It can actually work to the company's favour in being more unpredictable. Maybe the wrestling business is still in a long term transition. You stated how Vince killed the credibility and then Russo just put the icing on the cake and it's somehwat true. It seems to me that fans give more respect to guys like Flair and Hogan compared to Cena and HHH because they seem like puppets and did not earn the positions. The wwe has lost the ability to make fans become emotionally involved. Someone stated before that when Vince and Austin shook hands at Mania 17 it just showed fans nothing really matters after all those years against each other. Be it an entertainment or sport approach they do need to make fans feel things matter. All the turns, switches, shock, and whatnot make things seem like they aren't important. An example is Triple H. He is trying to do Flair's record, but are people really going to see him like Flair? There is just something different about the whole dynamic of the business. I think the major difference of love the old school guys like Flair, Hogan, Piper etc get over the new guys is much more ingrained in the innocence gone from the business. There is still inconsistent kayfabe going in, but I wonder how guys like Angle, Cena and whatnot will be seen in the future. If they will ever have the love of the masses as guys like Taker would have. Guys like Austin, HBK, and Taker is indeed the last breed of kayfabe old school.

Another thing to really question about the wwe is the hiring of hollywood writers. Are they making bigger stars under this new system before they were doing this approach? I will say Kurt Angle, but he was under Kreski's watch. There is also no ample proof that this hollywood writing actually works. None of these writers have helped make business boom like Vince Russo did. He didn't have any tv writing experience, but the wwe seems bent on only hiring people like that. Russo was a wrestling fan. I know some hate the guy and for good reason, but again look at this how the wwe would have analyzed wcw's business practices. The approach they have taken with hollywood writers has also basically failed. Just as some of the wrestlers they bring straight from wrestling school to the main event is what they do with writers who don't have any damn knowledge about wrestling or the storylines currently running are put into positions to write stuff for the wrestlers. Vince Mcmahon should really sit back and look at the model he is using. Why is it that when they bring back guys like Hogan, Austin, Rock etc ratings pop and people are interested? Yes, they are legends, but there has to be some reason why the fans don't stick around for the current product. The rumours just make me laugh because if it's true Vince is blaming everyone except himself. If wcw was around and kicking his ass like in the mid 90's he would find some way to take the top spot again. There weren't rumours like this when HBK was champion in 1996.

Mole, I think there must be at least some truth to the rumour. The reason I think this is that HHH's interview on OTR, he stated Orton and the newer guys are still learning and that they haven't been able to make new stars like Rock and Austin because sometimes when they think a certain guy can do something they want they can't do it. Now, they have Batista as champion and the man was never in a title feud or match before WM 21. Then the rumours with Cena being sent back down to OVW to polish up his skills kind of goes with this rumour. There has to be something to it. It's not really about fans saying either or here. It's that the wwe haven't done the business they were doing before. People say that the wwe doesn't have competition which is true, but they also have a bar to which they are expected to reach because of past glory. It's really about how the system wcw and the wwf used in the past created money compared to now. In the last two years the only true thing that has been a sure-fire money maker has been WrestleMania. Seriously, if the wwe was under an umbrella like Time Warner the suits would be looking at how things were before the split and how things are now. Seriously, people said guys like Paul Wight and Chris Jericho would be much better off in the wwf, but look at both of their careers. It's not that much different than wcw. Jericho's been job boy on raw(not even a Jericho fan, but this can't be disputed) even though they will proclaim he became undisputed champion under the wwe banner, but really that meant nothing in the grand scheme of things. Benoit got a token reign as champion just as he did in wcw. Look at Booker T's stock for crying out loud. He came in as a main eventer and champion of wcw. Years later he is an afterthought. Really look at the brand split from a perspective of how the wwf would do it to another company. It's the wwe's ego of being the company who knows how to make stars and whatnot is what I'm basing this off and why I think the rumour must have something to it. It seems they have finally noticed that they need new writers and are trying to get some, but Vince would not dare take his daughter off the team. I don't know, but reading that article with the company seeing Batista and Cena as projects is kind of funny. They never had these type of rumours when HHH was first crowned champion in 1999 and didn't put him to the task of not living up to past champions(he wasn't even really that over then either). Champions shouldn't be "projects". That's a flaw right there. The champion is suppose to represent the company. I still don't believe totally that certain guys would be buried without the brand split. They push who they want. They see money in Cena, so they don't bury the guy. They wanted Brock to be the Next Big Thing, so he wasn't buried. However, Orton who they were determined to get over was pushed, but ended up getting buried in some ways. It might have damaged his career for all we know simply because they wanted to push him. Is it Orton's fault or wwe's fault for not knowing the abilities of the talent and what he could and couldn't do? You don't throw the new guys off the cliff without a parachute to save themselves. I'm saying this and I think the brand split is okay, but this stuff can't be denied. The wwe had a better success rate in getting who they wanted over before the brand split. Maybe it's as simple as the new talent just not being that good or any good at all.

In the new RAW mag there is an ad promoting Dusty's biography along with Terry Funk's. Everyone's mentioned Vince, Austin, Jericho, and Benoit as being guys to induct Hart. If they really want drama they should make it Shawn Michaels

Didn't Meltzer's list about the top stars in the company's history prove that Bret wasn't that bad of a draw compared to the total history of the organization? Another thing with Bret Hart was that in 1993 and 1994 Bret was getting the best responses in terms of a babyface. It kind of started in the summer of 1991 just before the steroid stuff starting to pick up. The fans were respecting Bret's in-ring talent. By 1992, the guy was competing with Savage and Warrior as the top babyface. There needs to be some context put into this whole thing with the "dark ages" and WHY Diesel also didn't draw that well. Yes, it's true he sucked as a babyface when they turned him(sound familiar?) and didn't really have a strong list of contenders, but there was a major black eye over wrestling then for numerous reasons. Bret was needed by Vince in those times to help fix the whole mess the company was in. Sports Illustrated was even covering the industry stating that Vince was only pushing muscle men(Lex Luger's name was used) and that guys like Ric Flair with more talent were being held back because of not having the physique of greek gods. When Bret returned in 1996, he basically helped save that organization from looking really horrible in the vien that all the top stars were leaving it. Then take into account the year bret had and how it helped phase the wwe into the attitude era. No foundation for Austin's character to work off being an anti-hero for America. No "I quit" match. No kayfabe breaking backstage rivalry between HBK/Bret. No Montreal and then no Mr. Mcmahon. Bret is VERY important in the annals of the wwe. Now, this legacy has grown and I won't be surprised that Bret will be similar to Hulk Hogan. I'm not saying he will get the same standing ovations as Hogan, but Bret returning to the wwe will have a huge impact just like Hogan did in 2002. I'm sure of it. In some twisted way he is at the root of the company's rebirth during the attitude era. No disrespect to Owen Hart, but that whole incident also raised Bret's stock amongst the mainstream as being the bitter brother of the man who died in Vince's ring. Bret will be a big draw.

They definitely learned how to turn Eddie heel by using Rey and doing it slowly instead of the Tajiri turn. How long this will last is a different story, but if they go for the Latino War approach that was a an article and add people to the feud it will work. Cena/Eddie is definitely down the line.

So no one thinks a rematch between HBK and Angle for Mania wouldn't work with Bret Hart being inducted 10 years after the fact of WM 12's match? I agree with the ironman flaws and 2/3 falls though. If they go 60 minutes, it should just end up that way. The problem would be too many false finishes, but that can easily be covered with re-starting the match a couple of times. Now if they have Bret Hart be the special referee I can imagine the heat put on the match automatically. Not gonna happen of course. Now, I kind of see why they were thinking about having Mania at Calgary or Montreal next year.

Oh man, those rumours of an ironman match between HBK and Angle for Mania 22 and now possibly Bret Hart in the HOF? Austin inducting him in Chicago is a good idea, but maybe Benoit would be Bret's choice having been trained by his dad. It would also be ten years since they had the ironman match and you know how the wwe pimps that as Mania's greatest match.

I also feel something might be up with Edge in tournament. Even he doesn't win the title they have brought up the idea that Edge could lose the MIB shot because of the draft. I think Edge's heat at the moment along with the stip he has makes it the best time to pull the trigger on Edge. After this month the whole MIB and tournament thing may not be a big deal to fans. However, the rumoured Batista/HHH 3 match has me wondering if it's a title match or not. If Christian wasn't jobbing and rumoured for smackdown I would think Edge/Christian might have been the title match for the ppv. HHH would win the HIAC, but both him and Batista would still have steam for another championship match down the line. The angle would just be Batista having HHH's number in title matches. For once the booking can go many ways, but I also thought that in January when HHH got the belt back immediately.

Well, Cena's matches in 2004/05 included........... Booker T, Big Show(decent), Kenzo, Rene Dupree, and Carlito's debut match(not bad actually). This list is not exactly the greatest and everyone knows the guy aint HBK or Flair in the ring. JBL in 2004 had Eddie, UT, Big Show(not good, but it's Big Show), Booker T, Kurt Angle and even had a fatal 4-way with these men. JBL had everything and everyone thrown at him to try to give his his title reign credibility.

I actually think that idea is great, but the question remains...what happens after Edge wins the belt? You pass it back to Batista to job to HHH at the ppv? Makes Batista look really stupid and then weak. Another hilarious secnario can have Edge lose BOTH title shots by being sent to smackdown on draft night after the whole RAW roster helps Batista kick his ass to prevent him taking the title to smackdown.

MikeSC and iggymcfly you both got a point

I don't like how they move people to the opposite division just for some current scenario. The person just gets lost in the shuffle. If they do move Angle I hope there is a bigger plan than just some silly Masterlock challenge thing although I think this has no bearing, but we'll see. Kurt Angle and HHH both jockeying for the top heel spot? They might as well throw UT on RAW too, so he can bitch HBK backstage and we can get some 90's wcw soap opera backstage I guess Edge is screwed of any title reign(not that he deserves it, but they seem to really force this guy on the audience). I'd laugh if the audience doesn't give Lita/Edge any reaction because of being put on screen together. That is a way to screw up their push. However, I don't think that many people really know the real story and they do need Matt Hardy. It will just look like any other storyline such as Trish turning on Jericho at WM XX. The general fans know Matt was Lita's girlfriend even in storylines. You guys think bringing back Tammy will be some kind of respect for what she did for wrestling? Look what they've done to the women's division and look what they've done to Sable. Vince made her end up doing what she left the company for in the first place. Trish kind of insulted Moolah at the RAW X show with her comments about wrestling being known for having ugly woman until she arrived performing in the ring or something along those lines. Moolah who was the division. Look how they mocked Scott Hall with his drinking habit in 2002. This company kind of acts childish with situations like this.

I hope WM 16, WM 17, 18, Hulkamania, nWo, really do become rare because I got them all. However, I don't think it can come close to my videotapes that include Hogan losing his title on NBC and seeing Andre with his version of the belt on Piper's Pit along with other classics. Of course, 24/7 will show this stuff, but at least I got the original commentary that isn't edited. Too bad I was so much of a perfectionist as a little kid that I kept recording and re-recording the tapes trying to preserve it and it's no longer mint.

I second this with the exception of the main event:huh: However, I've been wrong before. This looks completely weak compared to RAW.

Hmmm..... Cena vs. Angle in 2003 or JBL/Angle on smackdown? Cena Cena/UT in 2003 or JBL/UT SummerSlam 2004? Cena Cena/Benoit or Benoit/Bradshaw? Cena Cena/Eddie or Eddie/JBL? JBL I don't know, I think Cena wins this margin. He can be carried. Cena/JBL (Mania)=dud

That match sucked the big one on the raod to WrestleMania and made Batista look lumbering. That's why I believe either HBK or Benoit will be used to help make Batista look good. Of course, the idea of Edge winning with Lita screwing Kane is a possibility. Yeah, they are jobbing Christian out. I mean I understood it when Razor Ramone/Diesel were getting jobbed out in 1996 before leaving for wcw, but raw/smackdown? It did lead to Hall and Nash becoming the hottest guys in the industry, but.........

This is just pure speculation, but could Christian jobbing out like that be the RAW creative making sure their side looks superior when Christian jumps to smackdown? (if he is) I think the rumour was that only two guys will know who is moving, but I think it's obvious the staff must know Christian is moving. This might sound like propaganda because it's all the same company, but didn't they send Heyman home for listening on a RAW meeting? It could be they are doing this to Christian, so when he jumps to smackdown and feuds with Cena it makes Cena look inferior as champ when Christian couldn't even get a title shot in the tourney.

I agree fully that the wrestling seems better. The shows seem a bit tighter as well as the time flies. They might have found a nice mix by having hollywood writers along with guys like Steamboat and Dibiase helping with the matches. I don't know about anyone else, but HHH has been much more entertaining this year than usual and even when he won the elimination chamber match in January it was good booking. It might also help that the guy doesn't have crappy wrestlers like Nash and Moon Man Scott running around where he has to ty to pull solid matches out of them. Another thing is Gerwitz isn't the head writer for raw right now either. Smackdown is also a lot better than it was last year at this time.

Oh, I know what you are saying here, but look at what they've done in the past. They are NOT protecting Batista the way they should. Benoit was the champion last year, but he was not the top man on RAW. It was HHH and his feud with HBK. The same damn thing with Goldberg. He was the champion, but it was still all about HHH even when the man wasn't on the show. The wwe uses Shawn Michaels for highly publicized title matches for champions in the short term for tv matches. He was used in this way against Goldberg and Benoit. He is high profile enough to take the loss and not be tarnished. They are making Benoit to be the same thing now. Look at the booking and tell me it's not HHH they are protecting with Batista unable to kick out of the pedigree and whatnot. The star is still Triple H even though he is jobbing to JR and Benoit recently. It's Batista screwing him instead of just flat out beating him. John Cena is the guy they are protecting and promoting in conferences as the next big star. Benoit most likely won't job to Kane because it would hurt HHH(not that I agree with this, but THEY think like that). Edge can possibly go over HBK and then I can see them having Edge topple Batista. Remember a few months back Batista couldn't beat Edge on RAW. However, how likely would it be for them to have Edge/Benoit again in another contender's match in the finals when they just did a whole feud based on that? They won't job Edge in that scenario because it weakens him, however he can job to HBK due to their past storyline about HBK screwing him out of title matches. The big picture. I know it sometimes doesn't seem like they have big pictures, but I think they do for main events.

May 2004 Battle in the Dessert Location: Arizona Chris Benoit defends the world heavyweight title against Shawn Michaels!!!! Yeah, they will never have face vs. face title matches on free television for May Sweeps Yep, they won't think about using Benoit or HBK to further Batista/HHH for the HIAC at Vengence like they used two babyfaces last year to further HBK/HHH in the HIAC at Bad Blood. Fall of 2003 Goldberg defends his world heavyweight title against Shawn Michaels!!! Yep, they will never do this face vs. face stuff because it's stupid. I mean we are in 1985. Of course, no one has even thought about the possibility of HHH COSTING Batista the world title to create the HIAC match either. I must have also been dreaming when I saw a babyface vs. babyface match between HBK and Benjamin on RAW TONIGHT!!!!! JBL vs. Kurt Angle was heel vs. heel, but it didn't seem to stop them from running an angle about Kurt Angle being an American hero and JBL being a corrupt American that led to a title match on television. No. No. No.

So, HBK or Benoit shouldn't win because the champion might not be cheered over them in a title match? If this is the case, they are right to put the title back on Triple H and not bother even try to push Batista as champion. If HBK and Benoit are more over than him what will happen if they put him in regular title matches that don't involve Triple H? That would have 3 guys who are better workers AND more over than the champion. Run HBK vs. Batista or Benoit/Batista and see what happens. It's leading to Batista/HHH anyways at Vengence. The same was said when Batista went up against Flair in Flair country and Flair was booed against Batista. They can't be too conservative and it won't kill Batista as champion to go over top guys like Benoit or HBK who will no doubt make him look like a super champion. I still think this Christian love is short-sighted, but we'll see. So, Benji can top Rock's run as IC champion by July? Who else would like to see The Rock against Benjamin at SummerSlam?

This would normally be true, but they are building to HHH/Batista supposedly for Vengence and a draft lottery is coming up. I can see Benoit or HBK taking it and then facing Batista on television. HBK and Benoit are two of HHH's biggest rivals on RAW in the last couple of years and to have Batista beat them makes the third encounter look like a cake walk for Batista and he ends up jobbing. You know, HHH is not well liked on the net, but if this is what they are doing it is damn good booking that leads to HHH's 11th title win. Of course, Edge could win this thing and then lose his title shot due to the draft lottery. They have made three scenarios that can be taken from this tournament.