Promoter

I'm going to have to agree on another overhyped WM and that IS X. I actually think WM 19 is much better quality wise than that event. The trick to that event was the 2 title matches. They did that to cover up the fact that the main event was a weak draw. The storyline behind it all was superb though. I can only imagine if they used that angle on real over guys how it would have gone over big time in the media. I'm not ripping Bret Hart here. He deserved the spot. Maybe they should have had the ladder match as the first championship match and then do HBK/Bret in the finals. This is not hindsight either because I was thinking the thing even when it was promoted. Just like I thought HBK should have been the champion in 1995. I remember in 1997 e-mailing them like crazy about how they screwed up in those years and how they were screwing up having Austin jobbing out to Savio and Bret when he had the most potential to break out along with HBK being a lame babyface. Maybe it's coincident, but they somehow got things back on track. I guess getting their tails kicked every week made them pay attention to the us fans as I'm sure others were saying the same thing. You see I kind of agree that sometimes they really could do much better, but looking at how things went down and the reshuffling of the matches they had planned I think this Mania came out actually better than what they planned.

Yeah, I think that has to be credited to Vince Mcmahon.

Russo booking from summer of 1997-1998 is gold. Everyting else sucked. Seriously. 1999 they were riding of the waves of the comeback in 1998 with Tyson and so on. Russo left in 1999 because he ADMITTEDLY got burnt out. 1999 saw STUPID stuff like.... Taker believing his character? Austin and Vince joining together to take the title from HHH? I can't bother...........

It was the planned match that was why they were doing it at house shows after not deciding to do Hogan/Zeus. It got yanked for the reason you said. Anyone who lived in Toronto at the time got inside scoops because Jack Tunney leaked stuff to our media. He didn't outright say things to spoil, but you had to read between the lines since it was kayfabe heavy in those days. The WM 4 rumour with Dibase was actually a prediction by our media with everything down to Bam Bam against Dibase. I didn't buy it all and when I came on the net YEARS later to see that Dibase was suppose to win I was surprised. Tunney even kind of leaked Hogan jobbing to Andre on NBC. They announced in our media that NBC would have the first live special for pro wrestling in 50 years and the writer asked the question "how embarassing would it be if Hogan lost his title on live tv? There are other stuff like this I can remember. I was in mark mode until 1990 where I became semi-smark. Bret Hart DID demand the title or he would jump in 1992 after headlining SummerSlam in September. Vince caved in and suddenly he became champion a month later. Bret was getting the best responses and Warrior was still just "there".

WM 6 wasn't always going to be Hogan vs. Warrior. I live in Toronto and the rumours were Hogan/Perfect and supposedly we were battling with LA Coliseum and the SuperDome for the event. Tunney alledgedly got them to have it here since it was a brand new facility at the time. Maybe, Vince is upset that he didn't do it in LA because that was their best chance to get 100,000 fans.

RavishingRickRudo, it wasn't Vince's creation. He used the same blueprint from his dad. He even admits this in a 1993 wwf magazine. What he did with Hogan was exactly what his dad did with Bruno Sammartino. Bruno was used to get the wwwf tv times and so on just like Hogan was. Hogan was dominating just like Bruno was. Vince Mcmahon use to book the tag team division when his dad ran things in the 70's. WrestleMania was a bite off Starrcade. Pay per view was also around before Vince used it, but he maximized it best just as previously mentioned with Vince taking things to another level. When Vince went with his own vision of turning Walt Disney the company failed miserably in 1990-1993 compared to the past. His new generation campaign also failed when trying to wipe out the success of the 80's. I already went through the model he stole from wcw and the ecw for the 90's to return to glory.

You are right. In fairness to Vince Mcmahon, I give you exhibit A in Vince Russo. Russo was kind of smart in how to turn things around in terms of crash tv, but Vince had to be smarter with how it got put on tv. Russo was clueless in wcw. Exhibit B is also Hulk Hogan and his storylines in the 80's. I've heard it was really Hogan that came up with some of the stuff with Andre and Orndorff. Hulk goes to wcw and we get the lamest shit from him. Exhbit C would be the booker Vince had in the 80's from 85-88. I don't know what got into him after those years, but maybe it was Pat Patterson. Sure, that guy's a genius for match finishes, but his booking of overall talent is lame. Royal Rumble wwf title match is your proof. Maybe it was all the allegation and trials that messed up Vince's "genius". Right now, it could be his nepotism.

WM XX was originally going to be HHH/Goldberg if anyone remembers. Then it got changed to Goldberg/Lesnar champ vs. champ. WM 21 was going to be HHH/Brock. WM 18 was also rumoured here in Toronto to be The Rock vs. Austin rematch from WM 17 in another champ vs. champ scenario. The whole invasion thing bombed and changed things. It was then going to be Austin/HHH for WM 18 because HHH was asking for Austin/HHH for WM 17. Now, I know he gets hated on, but in hindsight that MIGHT have been the match to do for WM 17 with how things went down. Austin stays face and remains champ, while Triple H would have kept the title for a year for heat. WM 16 WAS HHH/Rock because they had ads for it in magazines. Austin/Show was the first match they pencilled in, but then it got changed to Austin/Rock for WM 2000 before the injury. Rock and Austin were rivalling in popularity at the time. They supposedly wanted Rock to get his win back from jobbing at WM 15 in a face vs. face match. The plan was the same as the 17 match supposedly. They were testing who was more over as a face in the months prior with polls and teaming them up. WM 14 was going to be Bret Hart and Steve Austin alledgedly before that whole disaster at Survivor Series and the contract thing. WM 13 I've heard different things. I remember Austin alledgedly was suppose to win the final four match and become the champion with Bret costing him the title the next night against Sid. Bret would then win the title from Sid in the cage match and it would have been Bret/Austin at WM 13. WM 13 was really strange. WM 11 early on had Bret/Owen as a possible main event, but Diesel was getting face heat with matches with Bret and they shifted gears. WM 6 I have also heard was going to be Perfect against Hogan and that's why the Rumble and Perfect smashing the belt played out the way it did.

I don't think Vince is a genius, but he is a very good business man. I agree his claim to fame is taking people's ideas and blowing them up. Sometimes he does take things to another level. I'll go that far with how good a business man he is. However, let's really look at how Vince got where he is in a quick review. Vince is also very lucky with timing. He took over his father's company. Mind you his dad didn't even think he would have been able to run it or get the money to buy it(there's a whole other story within that story). Vince sees Hulk Hogan becoming a national sensational in the AWA where Hogan came up with Hulkamania and whatnot. Besides who else wouldn't see dollar signs in a guy that had a big role in Rocky 3? Verne was just an idiot who didn't realize Hogan was about the cash and would jump at the better offers elsewhere if not given the strap. In 1983, the NWA had the first super show in Starrcade. I don't know if anyone else realizes that the NWA actually wanted Hogan for the first Starrcade. Vince was SMART in giving Hogan the opportunity to be champion and I might as well add quickly. Yeah, Vince MADE Hogan my ass. Hogan had choices in 1983 and Vince was smart to give him the best one. Yet, when Bischoff did the same damn thing in 1993 all of a sudden it was being corrupt and turning his back on the man that made him Vince then took guys like Piper. He saw how Starrcade made a buzz. Vince was SMART to follow with his own supercard and was SMART to know to get mainstream press he needed celebrities. SMART BUSINESS move. He kept on adding top tier wrestlers to his roster and also got tv time exposure. I mean, when Bischoff does it he's trying to kill competiton nuh? Vince was on top of the world in 1988 and in 1989 went Walt Disney. He went a different route with the product that was blueprinted for him by past promoters such as his dad. He turned everyone into a cartoon from Kerry Von Eric who was over and even the mighty Road Warriors. By the end of 1990, the damn company is sinking and it contiues to sink until a little fresh air comes in the form of Ric Flair. Flair and company leaves basically in 1992 and things take even more of a dive. Yep, where was all the smarts then? He had no new talent to steal and he did not have the tv time on NBC anymore because of lagging ratings and whatnot. Things keep going downhill until WCW roars onto the scene in 1996 and we know how Vince copied wcw and ecw from everything from expanding the monday show hour and adding main event worthy matches on live tv. Taking attitude from ecw and the gang wars from wcw. Things start looking up again just like the mid 80's and they get tv time on UPN. Things are going bonkers with big time draws of Austin and Rock who are similar to Hogan and Savage in the 80's. They bring in more stars like Benoit and company from the competition bolstering the roster just like the 80's. WCW is all but bought up and we are back to another time frame where Vince can't steal established talents and make them his own. Yep, I see a pattern here of his "genius".

No it will be saved by its owner Stephanie Mcmahon

I think Mania could surprise people, but it could suck too. It's either or just like the match outcomes. Okay, I'll be honest here and say the hype for WM XX was better(except in the world title match obviously), but I think some of this year's disappointment in Mania's build is due to the burn people got from WM XX's "where it all begins again" theme. WM XX is really over-rated. To be honest, the last time Mania really felt like Mania during the hype was WM 2000 with the All-Day Long special that ended up disappointing everyone with HHH retaining at the end of it. Nothing has really changed since then, so why would people be hype again in the same way for the event when it seems like things won't change. I think that is over-riding a lot of the lack of anticipation along with other things. WM X-7 was a classic, but again the ending with Austin's heel turn might have turned people off. WrestleMania XX Main Event Of course, the net is going to be all happy about Benoit being in the main event, but I can clearly remember people pissing and moaning that Triple H wasn't going to job and that Benoit would win at Backlash. Seriously, Benoit winning is the only thing worthwhile on the card a year later. Even then, making it a triple threat match took away the traditional feel of going over the champion for the belt. HHH had a built in excuse and didn't really put Benoit over with HBK all up in the mix. WM 21 Umm.....the same thing is happening again this year with some seeing Triple H retaining and Batista going over at Backlash because of the "first match" of the feud theory where the feud is in its infancy and Batista has a shitoload of momentum. Okay, wasn't some people complaining last year that Benoit looked like crap in the build up the main event? Now this year they actually are making the challenger look like a real threat and some think the contender has too much momentum? Brock/Goldberg burned fans and that's why they got booed the hell out of the building. That match sucked and even the stunners looked forced. The only thing good about this match was seeing both these guys getting pissed on. Kane/UT also sucked imo. The only thing that saved it from getting booed out of MSG like Brock/Goldberg was the entrance. Once he stepped in the ring and we saw BikerTaker the whole thing was a big set of hype for nothing. I won't even bother go through everything, but I honestly forgot like someone else that Rikishi was even on the friggin card last year. I also forgot about the cruiserweight nonsense that was like a minute. Seriously, WM XX was not that better off. It was the hype of the 20th anniversary and heading back to MSG. It had the hype, but it really didn't deliver that much. Rock 'N Sock was okay, but would it have killed them to do Foley/Orton at the event instead? That match would have meant more at the event instead of Backlash. They were building that match since December and then all of a sudden Rock is thrown in there. I really think some are overhyping WM XX. Of course, maybe I'm running down the event, but take note that I have every Mania on tape or DVD and I haven't even bothered to get WM XX. I have seen the event twice. Once when it happened at my friend's house and later on the tape he recorded it with. Seriously, I think if Eddie and Benoit weren't in the main events a lot of the net would be pissing on Mania XX more than they are. This year's event made a lot more sense for last year with the HOF induction. WM 21 beats it there. Batista/HHH is also built up better than last year's main event. Angle/HBK won't stink up the joint like Brock/Goldberg. There's no tag title defense and so on, but I don't think people would be clamoring over seeing OJ defending his title in a 4 minute match along with Regal/Tajiri v. La Resistance part 2,994. If they do give the time for the good matches it could be better than last year's obviously. I mean Christian/Jericho was a hyped match last year for crying out loud. Trish it seems was the only one who got any good out of it. Last year's event was really disappointing in many ways and they are paying for it this year with all the hype or lack thereof. Cena has a better build and match than last year for sure. Remember Big Show US Champion who didn't even defend the damn title for months?

MSG main events (November 1956 - April 1995): 1pt MSG main event sellouts(November 1956 - April 1995): 3pts PPV main events: 2pts PPV main events with a 1.0 (or 400,000 buys) or better buy rate: 4pts Wrestlemania main events: 5pts (save for WM13, which flopped) Record breaking events: 6pts (WM3/17, Austin-UT Raw) Shea Stadium main events: 5pts #47 - Eddie Graham, Big Show and Stan Stasiak #45 - Iron Sheik and Jimmy Snuka #44 - Ken Patera #42 - Freddie Blassie and Paul Orndorff #40 - Ric Flair and Greg Valentine #35 - Ted DiBiase, Randy Orton, Sid Vicious, Davey Boy Smith and Brock Lesnar #33 - Don Muraco and Stan Hansen #31 - Gorilla Monsoon and Sgt. Slaughter #29 - George Steele and Jerry Graham #27 - Ultimate Warrior and Johnny Valentine #23 - Chris Benoit, Kevin Nash, Vince McMahon and Yokozuna #21 - Ivan Koloff and Roddy Piper #20 - Andre The Giant #17 - Buddy Rogers, Kane and Chris Jericho #16 - Mick Foley #15 - Kurt Angle #14 - Miguel Perez #13 - Randy Savage #12 - Shawn Michaels #11 - Bret Hart #10 - Superstar Billy Graham #9 - Pedro Morales #8 - Argentina Rocca #7 - The Undertaker #6 - The Rock #5 - Triple H #4 - Steve Austin #3 - Bob Backlund #2 - Hulk Hogan #1 - Bruno Sammartino

You know that makes a whole lot of sense which is why it didn't happen. I mean we had Vince winning the Rumble for crying out loud.

That would be the normal HOF inductee you are talking about. This is egomaniac Hulk Hogan we're talking about here who has his induction televised on saturday night. I wouldn't be surprised to see Hogan interact with people like JBL holding his title and whatnot.

Actually, I've read rumours that Austin/Mcmahon cage match was going to be the main event of WM 15 somehow(I know about the triple threat rumour too). It's just that Rock took off so well as the corporate champ they saw the dollar signs in pitting the two against each other. I don't know having Mcmahon wrestle in the main event of Mania is kind of ridiculous.

Hunter's Torn Quad, Hogan will be at WrestleMania. They have been promoting the HOF class of 2005 as being at WrestleMania.

I would guess he means when the first WWE movie is released. Or he could mean the ECW ppv!

Actually, you guys are forgetting the Goldberg feud. Goldberg manhandled Triple H before Unforgiven on raw during the "retirement party" for Goldberg done by Trips. Goldberg went on to win the title. I found this old tape by accident and you know Batista is kind of more over now than Goldberg was in 2003 for his match with Trips.

It's funny, but it's true. They would lose a lot of fans for pulling that stunt and I would really believe those who would say they would never watch again. It would be worse than when wcw did it because it's a $50 show and WrestleMania. That is a MAJOR burn to your fans. The wwe's best year storyline wise was the summer of 1997-summer of 1998. It was better than 2000 imo when you take into account everything. I don't know how much is credited to Russo, but that timeframe is the real stuff that put them back on the map. Austin's face turn at WM 13 followed by the feud with Bret Hart about America. HBK turning heel finally after the abysmal face run as champ in 1996 when he alledgedly helped Bret win the title for a 5th time ending UT's sucky reign. Kane/Taker's seeds were set and the first HIAC. The build up to the WM 12 rematch where DX is formed with the MSG incident. The Montreal screwjob that led to the Austin/Mcmahon rivalry in 1998. The Austin/Tyson angle which is the best celebrity angle of all-time. HHH taking over DX by throwing out HBK and aligning with X-Pac and NAO. DX invading wcw. Foley's 3 faces of fear. Austin defending his title against UT when he was good and a draw at MSG for SummerSlam. Things started to take a dive after that, but luckily Rock was rising in popularity along with Foley. Rock winning the world title the way he did was fantastic, but too bad the wrestling sucked that night and the company would go overboard with the shock and swerve in storytelling from there. 2000 started with Russo's storyline supposedly with the Mcmahon/Helmsley Era. It carried over to Mania 16 when Triple H did the impossible by going over in that fatal 4-way. The company has been going downhill ever since with nonsensical soap opera(I'm sorry that whole love triangle had potential, but it ended up stupid). Luckily they had some great talent like Benoit coming in that year.

Randy Orton was not a bust. A bust is soemone who loses a ton of money for the company. Orton was pushed too soon. There's a difference there. Someone like Ron Garvin is a bust. and the year of the Diesel

I wouldn't be surprised to see Cena/Orton next year for the wwe title.

Ultimate Warrior says the wwe is an insult to him? Is this the same guy who had "vomit" come out of his mouth in a feud with a voodoo man called Papa Shango? Is this the same man who wore face paint like a clown with tassles running around like a mad man? Is this the man who is the mentor on the mic for Sensible Randy Orton? This is hilarious! Vince bring him back as I can see him not being an insult to an Olympic Gold Medalist Kurt Angle, Triple H, or even Bradshaw as comical champions. I loved Warrior as a little kid, but this guy's rants sound more crazy than HTM's. I have one question for Warrior. Who asked you? Seriously, if you don't care why even bother waste time typing up how useless the HOF is? To me, it says Warrior feels he should have been inducted or asked to join this year. I think he turned it down last year or at least an appearance at WM XX. Maybe he thought guys like Piper and Hogan wouldn't have accepted either. I can't wait to see what he has to say about Vince coming out with his DVD set. I'm sure he'll try some lawsuit.

Well, they didn't even hype the HOF induction on Saturday night on RAW or did I miss that? This company is known for being incredibly stupid. Maybe they learned from the mis-handling of Hogan in 2002 where hyping his return for Mania outshined everything on the card causing the most flat title match in years.

I think it's even more unforgivable to have these thin tag and women's divisions. That is the bigger problem.

It's funny how I think the same way as some here. For some reason this feels longer than 4 years. I just popped in a tape from 2000 and I thought it was actually 2001 SummerSlam. 2001 was really disturbing as I watch some of those summer broadcasts and it's really unwatchable. You got wcw, ecw, and wwf all mixed together and I think Linda's "creative confusion" is a major understatement. Some may think things suck now, but the shows have much more logic to it along with realism. Watching those shows it is really no wonder fans turned off. Having things like Stephanie running ecw and Shane Mcmahon as the owner of wcw interfering in matches was STUPID. It's not entertaining or believable at all. It defied all wrestling logic. Then add in the Austin heel turn. The wwf mocks wcw's horrible ideas, but post Mania 17 really takes the cake when you consider the potential and talent at their hands. Things really did go south after SummerSlam 2000. They undercard did kind of suck with rushed matches between Kane/UT and other borefests. They were lucky Triple H, Angle, and The Rock were very hot.