Promoter

I thinkk this thread shows that Lesnar returning and with the same push or stronger would actually garner much more interest in the business. Seriously, forget all the loyalty and respect for business crap. You have Lesnar return and win the wwe title(to save smackdown from JBL) immediately for that "he's back" pop and play up his egotistical ways of superiority over the business I think his little NFL stint would actually raise his stock. You run the Draft lottery again and bring some of those guys mentioned over to smackdown like HBK and Benoit(veterans to teach the youngster a lesson) and business will pick up. Bringing back Lesnar to humiliate him is a waste of time and money on their parts, but they would probably WANT to do it. I say WANT because Lesnar didn't allow them to humuliate him before what in the world would change that now? The sell out thing for him would be to go up against what he fought against in the wwe in the first place. Personally, I wouldn't mind him back if it would help that damn smackdown.

Yeah, can it be possible that the wwe is lame now because they can't steal anyone's ideas and make profit off it? What happened to them taking the tale of the tape? They couldn't even use that properly to build the story for the matches by the commentators. TNA is just flat out atrocious imo. When I can see them on free television in Toronto like I do raw and smackdown then maybe this topic can be valid. They are on ESPN Classic for crying out loud in Canada. That same channel that gave us "classics" like Flordia Championship Wrestling with Dutch Mantell headlining

I'll put in my thoughts here as I think it's kind of simple what fucked up 2004. I'm taking into account storylines and the behind the scenes stuff(or what we think we know of it). It's always easier in hindsight to see where things got screwed up, but it doesn't take away where things got screwed up. At the time the vision might have been seen as the best route, but look at the effects of the moves. #1 Chris Benoit jumping to raw. Yes, if you take into account the backstage stuff and all the events that came out of this it screwed BOTH smackdown and raw. You had Lesnar claiming to be the greatest champion and coming into his own feuding with Benoit. The fans were finally latching onto Lesnar as champion and fans were also dying to see Benoit finally win the wwe title(btw, being all technical is only a few months older than the whvyt title on raw*I don't think so in terms of both titles, but just for that side of argument's sake). Benoit is entered in the Royal Rumble and breaks Flair's record and also makes history by winning from start to finish unlike the fashion HBK did in 1995. Notice that this was not even brought up in the Year in review stuff which is a mistake in making Benoit an ironman character. Anyways, as someone stated Benoit being put into the title match at Royal Rumble would have done many things in hindsight. It would have kept the wwe title in high regards instead of giving us that crappy Bob Holly contending title match(or was it non-title as I can't even remember). The wwe title's importance started to crack right here. It would have also given Benoit a strong storyline of climbing back to #1 contender a year later and finally winning the title from Brock Lesnar who had defeated the man who he couldn't defeat a year earlier for the title in Kurt Angle. Instead we got the nonsensical jump to raw. I actually liked the idea that the winner can challenge any champion he chooses, but in this instance they help hurt smackdown. Now take into consideration what this left the wwe title situation in on smackdown. The wwe had to downplay Lesnar as a coward to try and con people into buying Holly had any sort of chance of winning the title from him. Not to mention this is where Brock's whining started to fire up. Then the wwe screws Eddie Guerrero's push by having his slow burn angle with Chavo cut short(which also hurt Chavo). All those months of build up for nothing and Eddie wins a mini-rumble on television. Eddie's push as champion was then shackled with the drug references and so on. As someone said it should have been built with the documentary first to build him into a sympathetic babyface. Anyways, this also hurt Benoit's win the following month imo because his counterpart had already upstaged him in his first attempt and defeated the man whom some can say Benoit ran from. Benoit is then downplayed by both HBK and HHH. I agree about having Benoit go over HBK and have HBK turn heel. Then run with Benoit as champ against guys like Jericho and so on, but the show was still all about HBK/HHH. Over on smackdown Lesnar leaves whom was integral with Paul Heyman hurting Eddie Guerrero. The wwe believes JBL is the answer and he is pushed against Eddie instead of using the momentumn Benoit was gaining to become champion on smackdown that was being built up from the fall of '03. Eddie was a lame duck champ that did not get a proper build to the championship and defeated a man who cared less about the wwe title by jumping to the NFL try outs. I know some of these things were not in their control, but damn if this Benoit jump didn't make a hell of a difference to both raw and smackdown. As someone stated maybe Eddie going to raw would have worked, but I agree that there would be politics to cut him short. Hell, I also think putting Cena in the role might have stopped Cena's friggin decline on smackdown as well if he wasn't cut short. Actually Cena might have been the best choice in hindsight for his mic work not to be castrated by UPN and for an extended feud with Orton to occupy their time and grow both of their characters. #2 WRESTLEMANIA XX All I have to say is that the wwe did not live up to expectations ESPECIALLY what was being rumoured with past stars returning and the type of matches they could have done. They screwed it up plain and simple. The triple threat match isn't strong enough mainstream wise to make up for the anticipation and what many people were hoping for where it all begins again. #3 The Draft Lottery The highest rating of the year I believe and for good reason. Everyone thought the wwe was going to shake things up and could have, but it really did nothing. #4 Orton's push and Evolution break up What more can be said? #5 JBL as champion The funny thing is that I think it's pointless at this point and time to take the title off him anytime soon. They might as well keep the title on him til at least Mania and give someone the big win, but who exactly who the hell knows. #6 Lack of faith in making super babyfaces I think #5 explains this.

Well, I can't remember which mag had the lineage of the world tag title this year, but they did not mix the two. The world tag title had the wwf tag title history and not the wwe tag title history of smackdown's titles. I think they will acknowledge the No Mercy match as the start of the wwe tag title history. Yeah, calling the wwf title the wwe title sounds pretty dumb with the word entertainment in it. That is why they don't say world wrestling entertainment champion for the most part I bet. It sounds like some kind of variety show title.

Oh yeah, forgot about Flair's return. That was magical. To see him in there with Vince, Angle, and especially Austin was surreal.

I can't believe some things I've read here since Shawn Michaels was at one point the Chris Benoit predecessor on the net in 1995 and 1996. I think Loss summarized it best and whoever said that Shawn was not overly great at one thing, but very good at all aspects is correct. Okay, let's break things down here. The "greatest of all-time" slogan was a marketing campaign by the wwf in 1997 and 1998 when they had the top stars like Bret Hart, Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage, and Ric Flair in wcw with the marketing scheme of "icons". I mean they had to do something to raise the level of HBK and its wwf championship. The wwf in retaliation used marketing to give Shawn Michaels a boost as the champion or top star and don't kid yourselves he was in 1996 and 1997. Vince craftily had Shawn "drive out" Diesel and Bret Hart who were crowned the new generation leaders in 1994-95. HBK was also marketed in a fashion to give the illusion that he was the real leader of the nWo through association with Hall and Nash. It was Vince Mcmahon's marketing scheme that came up with the greatest pure athlete in the history of the wwf theory. The "icon that can still go" as HBK even challenged all these guys on monday night raw. Okay, strip all that away. You would also have to do that with Ric Flair too. A lot of his "greatest of all-time" is marketing too. I also see Triple H 2000 coming up a lot here. I will say right now that if things were reversed with HBK of say 96 with his character of 94-95 heel would have perhaps done a better job than HHH with the talent Triple H had to work with. HBK's best year of 96 had him working with Nash(and yes it's arguable Bret pulled better matches for Nash, but who's to say that his babyface stuff wasn't deliberate to turn HBK face post Mania 11 as what happened in the days of pro wrestling planning things out months in advance?), British Bulldog, Vader, Mankind(why isn't it said that Foley believes that his best match came at the hands of Michaels?), and Sid. As mentioned the heel HBK in 1997 and 1998 was a heat machine with him riling up fans to jump over the railing to attack him. How can that be compared with Foley's heat of 2000(rumoured retirement and Cactus Jack persona), The Rock at his absolute popularity peak, Jericho, Benoit, Angle, and Steve Austin(who HBK also worked better matches with in 1996 and 1997, but I will cancel it out due to Austin being in his physical peak as well to be fair)? Come on now. I think it's safe to say that Triple H 2000 would probably be the Triple H of the last couple of years if he was put into the 1996 situation Michaels was in. I mean the proof is there when he has to work with lesser talent. Wasn't it HBK who many praised HHH for showing signs of his 2000 work in 2002 with the SummerSlam match? I know some look back now on the match and have lowered the praise, but the fact of the matter is that HBK did bring back some of the HHH magic that everyone was saying was missing that year. HHH also did not have a juggernaut of a promotion on his tail with the hot nWo of 1996. He had the pretty much weakened wcw that saw the radicalz jump ship. I don't know I just think comparing HHH to Shawn Michaels in terms of ranking in a list with Triple H on top is strange. Shawn still put on better performances than HHH last year with Jericho. His match with Benoit this year was better than the singles match with HHH. It's the same thing I argue with other fans about in terms of them saying Triple H was better than Bret Hart. Again, I give the guys who had a lot less to work with more of the advantage as Austin had to rise up with someone doing a great job in getting him to rise right? As been stated, HBK's problem is that his stint of greatness was short and always came at times that did not fall into a timeframe to favour him with the masses. Some may blame that on the man, but really can anyone truly say HBK wouldn't have continued to be a heat magnet post Mania 14 if he didn't have to retire? He was an integral part of "attitude" and would have fit right in with Rock and Austin, but perhaps him being gone allowed them to become greater without him hindering them. I don't know, but the dogging of Michaels here and eliminating the stuff he brought to the table is strange(although I agree with the negativity about that damn ironman match). Strange enough, I think Shawn worked better as a face in matches, but his strongest characters were always heel.

Okay, to put a new twist on this I ask when was the last time Ric Flair had a world title? Now compare that with Hulk Hogan. These little things do affect Flair's legacy I think. Hogan was pretty much trashed out of the wwf in 1993, yet he returned almost a decade later and STILL was crowned the WWF Champion. I guess this depends on if the question is asked towards hardcore fans or just fans in general. When was the last time Flair was REALLY on top. That MJ comparison is not the same because Jordan left pretty quick when he saw what he was doing wasn't improving his legacy. Hank Aaron/Pete Rose could also be mentioned in this, but at least they had a goal to accomplish and had reason to stick around. Muhammad Ali also got out just before ruining his with that last title match. For all the hate on Hogan I must admit that the man was smart enough to know he couldn't be looking up at the lights every damn night for the remainder of his last days. Hogan came back to prove something that Hulkamania ran wild in different eras which helped his legacy. Worked business or not it's pretty embarrassing to fall from the biggest and greatest star to a jobber. You pass the torch and go on although regardless of net thinking I believe Hogan jobbed way too much in his last stint in the wwf.

I say Outback Jack! Just to diversify things I might have to say Undertaker at Survivor Series '91.

Coincidence it has been relaunched when the greatest IC title matches DVD is suppose to hit stores next month?

You know how I think future fans will look at Flair? Something like they will look at Sting. Big fish in an organization that no longer exists and his legend has grown from that mantra. This may sound harsh, but it's the truth. I really believe Flair's DVD sold so well because a lot of people never saw those matches to begin with. I like Flair and all(as he is great, but not as he is billed), but the truth is for all his "greatness" his run in the wwf in 1992 nowhere lived up to the hype of his legend and I bet the company will focus on that timeframe in the future as the 80's and Hulk Hogan will always be remembered as its golden goose years. This is taking into account that the wwe will even be standing in 20 years in the same manner it is today.

I second this! It's also nice to know that I was right about Hogan/Andre being the most watched match of all-time a few months back and not Austin/Taker in 1999. NOT EVEN CLOSE! Thanks for writing this also.

I say Steamboat will follow the path of Vince Russo in 2002 and Pat Patterson 2004

FINGER. POKE. OF. DOOM.(but more predictable) That's what I saw last night. End of story. Next week the cartoon shall continue when HHH plays road runner and the faces play Coyote. Extremely disappointed.

I guess the old saying "when you're hot you're hot" fits the 1999 year. Austin and Rock's popularity at its peak.

Cena has more potential than Orton imo when you take into account all the safeguards put into Orton. Cena has not been booked to be a super group with HHH and the legendary Ric Flair. Cena did not get the longest I-C title reign since The Rock in 1998. Cena has been handcuffed with his "raps" which no one brings up. Last week it finally seemed like Cena was not trrying to be toilet funny and cute. If they can keep him cutting more promos of this nature it will only benefit him. He is more believable with what he's saying than Orton with his "density". Oh, btw, until the wwe has one identifiable champion Triple H will be seen as the major star from the attitude era. There is no clear cut #1 man with two belts, but Trips has the advantage of being a top player that tangled with the likes of Austin and Rock and later Hulk Hogan.

This is interesting. Now if the wwe can be honest with itself and analyze this data maybe it can help with their damn product although a lot has changed with the brand split and rosters. Looking at these numbers it would seem that post SummerSlam is where all the problems truly began. Maybe it was the combination of switching channels and changing up the creative staff, but it simply be that the wwe and wrestling started to fade in popularity. What were wcw and ecw doing at the time? It seems that the wwe started to lose fan interest after the ironman match where Triple H regained the title. The Rock's heat probably never regained its hot level of around Mania and Backlash(look at the crowd's heat for his title win). Killing off some of Rock's heat most of played a part since he was the super face at the time. August's average didn't look too bright either and perhaps Rock's title reign was too overshadowed with the love triangle stuff. Something mentioned by others was Triple H's face heat in 2001 post Mania, but I also think they might have botched it with Angle/HHH as well. Angle was getting some good heel heat in that feud. Now if they were listening to what the audience was responding to Angle should have aligned with Stephanie Mcmahon with Triple H turning face. If that happens a lot of stuff gets turned upside down for 2001. Austin's return seemed to actually hurt the company with these stats. Now this might have signalled fan interest in the character being low. They probably saw this and thought the heel turn was needed(and imo were right, but the timing and execution was off). Now things seemed to increase when Austin was put into the HHH program for the "vehicular homicide" angle and it seems the way that played out turned fans off. In the meantime, they had Angle becoming WWF Champion which imo was wrong timing and executed wrong. Angle was getting heat in the summer for his alignment with Stephanie and they should have run with that. Hindisght being 20/20 as we know Triple H/Austin in 2001 could have been a major feud if they had aligned things just a tad bit different when Austin returned. I think they were kind of building Austin's heel turn with him going over the edge at Survivor Series and whatnot. When you think about it Triple H was face-like with his superman powers surviving that crap with the crane. I think that whole Austin storyline with the "vehicular homicide" is where everything started to tank. The Rock's heat was dissipating as well with Angle and Rikishi. Austin was still kind of rusty. Imagine now if they had done Austin's return differently and played out the angle in a different path. Triple H turning face around SummerSlam 2000 and The Rock still remaining champion(actually he should have got the blow-off victory with HHH with the ironman match and then turn him face). It could have gone with things like Stephanie getting Angle the title shot to get the job done at SummerSlam. Anyways, Austin could have been a tweener when he returned just as always and blaming everyone for the attack. That would have fit into his character of 97 where he stunned faces and heels week in and week out. Since Triple H's heat was becoming more babyface like and with The Rock as champion(I think Angle got the belt when he was too green adding to apathy for ratings) they could have built Austin's heel turn against both men by dragging out the whodunnit angle. Someone stated before that Austin should have turned at the Royal Rumble and maybe that is a direction that could have worked. If they had aligned Austin with Mcmahon at that event I think the whole Austin heel turn would have worked better by having Triple H and The Rock as his folds. The Rock was planned to go do his movie anyways post Mania 17 and then having Triple H as a backdrop would have worked. The thing I can't blame them on for is that what they actually did turning Austin completely was to align him with the top heel Triple H. They might have thought to have an impact such as Hogan's heel turn they might have thought he needed to align with Triple H to do this. We know what the problems with doing that were though(such as the recent history between the men and that fans were craving to cheer HHH even the year before). It created an atmosphere where no faces had the image of overcoming the Two Man Power Trip. Sorry, but Taker and Kane were kind of lame at the time and not to mention we saw those matches a million times as it was. Not to mention ecw and wcw were gone giving little to cheer for fans post Mania 17. The wwe probably were banking on The Rock returning from hollywood to face off against Austin at SummerSlam. However, things started to fall and they rushed the Invasion angle which just confused things even more. Ratings and interest started to fade even more. I remember the WM press conference that had Austin and Rock face to face as the two world champions. Maybe they wanted to hold off Austin/Rock since they brought in Booker to face The Rock at SummerSlam and we know how that went. Triple H went down and it seemed they changed focus to Triple H returning as a face to become the champion at WrestleMania 18. They might have had the timing wrong with Triple H since Hogan was brought back. Then you have to consider the brand extension's execution. Remember they wanted to do it before the Royal Rumble? I wonder what some here would have suggested to implement the brand split because I still believe how they executed it has caused the mainstream to not really care for it. How would that have impacted the return of the nWo if the brand split was already in place since I did hear rumours that the nWo were suppose to float between the two brands, but the idea was nixed. Angle was getting the best heel heat with the exception of Austin in 2001 as well, yet we saw what crap they did with him there. I don't know things were really getting off kilter post Mania 17 and they haven't recovered since. The botching did start with Austin's return to the company along with HHH's handling. If they were on the ball more with certain things I bet the company would look a lot different today in terms of heat. USA network had the company before the wwe started to botch things and before Austin's return. I really think the alignment of certain things around the switch caused some fans to just turn off completely. The wwe had an artificial boost of interest with the purchase of wcw and pitting Rock/Austin in a match for Mania.

Maybe Holly is trying to get fired or something. Just as long the wwe doesn't lose their damn minds and have him in a feud with Kurt Angle.

Well, just don't bring a sign to a wwe event saying that or you know what will happen.

I think you need to see Hogan title defenses against guys like Savage, Dibase, Paul Orndorff, Perfect and even Bundy before ever saying JBL isn't worst wrestling wise. Look at the big picture of the history of the championship. You think JBL would have been able to have the same kind of match Hogan had with Ultimate Warrior at WrestleMania? I don't even think he's better than Yokozuna to be honest. Yoko at least seemed credible with his size and how he handled himself in the ring. From just a perceptive level he seemed kind of hard to defeat as a champion.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Brooke sing America The Beautiful. Hogan was on smackdown in September. Hogan is just using naive TNA again for leverage most likely with Vince Mcmahon. Hogan's ego just smells of last match in a wwf ring. Hell, Vince Mcmahon putting him in the HOF will feed his ego as well.

Worst. Title. Matches. Ever. for WrestleMania. (if it happens) Yes, even that dreadful Taker/Sid match would top it(well JBL's title match at least). At least Taker regaining the title had some value back then.

I don't know how this one hasn't been brought up yet......"you think you're better than me"? This ranks in the top 3 MOST DUMB turns of all-times. UT felt JR thought he was better than him because he would not kiss Vince's ass. Say what you will about Taker, but this guy has been put into some of the most stupid angles EVER. Vince running around with his pants hanging wearing JR's hat just tops it all off. I guess I answered my own question why no one has brought this up

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if JBL holds the damn title all the way to WM 21 and face off against John Cena. I'm sure people will be pissed if he wears it all the way to Mania. The revolt would arise again I bet. It's tolerable now to some, but for the road to Mania? It seems Kurt Angle is on jobbing duty and is going to face HBK at WM from the SS stuff I've read. Anyone else thinks JBL would fit Evolution? Maybe they should have made JBL go to raw and put him into Evolution. Bradshaw and HHH in the same group with their heeldom running over the faces? That would be a killswitch.

Revisionist history is Vince's brainchild If anyone remembers the 1992 SummerSlam promo would know that the wwe was responsible for the Wall coming down in Germany too.

Maybe Vince wanted Hogan to return to job to Hossan, but if it was about that rumoured tag match with the daughters we have been blessed without putting our eyes through that pain. RAW gets a high rating without the heels/evil boss thing going on. Coincidence?