Promoter

May be true, but I think Vince wanting to break the contract and the monetary commitment to get other things done had to play a part. He had a "masterplan" about "attitude" and wanted HBK and Austin to be his main players since Hart did not want to go that route. It's just the same way he got Ric Flair to play apart in his plan for the brand extension and I wonder if HHH wasn't such a Flair fanatic if he would still be around or be gone like the other legends he brought back. Flair at least gave some credibility with the new horse...I mean Evolution group. You know speaking about the horsemen I wonder if Evo would have more heat calling themselves that with HHH having Flair being the lapdog in the group he created?

geniusMoment I think you speak for a lot of my friends with that post you made. In some ways it also pertains to me with the ups and downs since WM 15. I really think the "attitude" era campaign from 1997 and 1998 was contrasted with the "get it" campaign and that campaign kind of destroyed what was built with "attitude". Seriously, watch how things are presented in 1997 and 1998 compared to 1999 and 2000 and I can see how the momentum they had came to a crashing halt. They booked more smarkish in 1997 and 1998 and in 1999 and 2000 they went more action adventure. I think Vince did the same mistake in the 80's. He had Pro wrestling" as sport in 1985-1987 and had a lot of momentum. In 1988 and especially 1989 he changed the product to more Walt Disney and we know how things went after that. In other words they get full of themselves and start doing things that did not get them to the dance. They stop listening to the market and the artificial sell outs and ratings from momentum blinded them to what would obviously have led to what we have today. The thing about 1999 and 2000 that slowed the downfall was the importing of wcw guys like Jericho, Big Show, and the Radicalz. I also agree about 2000 and the problems it did have. I know Trips gets a lot of praise for that year, but I think the wwe had no choice, but to push him the way they did. HHH was NOT over as a main eventer and they desperately needed one because Rock and Austin were not reliable at the time due to movies and injuries. Mick Foley was retiring. A lot of people say Hogan was in the right place at the right time, but I tend to think HHH was lucky to get that chance to do what he did. HHH was never a real draw, but it seems like he was in 2000 for the reasons I mentioned. He was also a fresh heel in the main event scene(Rock was the last heel year prior) at the time that broke tradition with a win over the babyface. HHH is using that leverage today to prove to Vince perhaps he is the mainstream star. The momentum Rock and Austin gave the wwe in 1998 and 1999 has disappeared and the problems are more glaring now without wcw to laugh at from the fans. 2002 is a very telling year. Honestly take HBK and the nWo returns from the wwe and what was there for the wwe to really pull in interest if everything in the booking stayed the same? The booking and writing philosophy of 1999 and post SummerSlam 2000(although I did start to hate some things prior to that event) started to haunt them. I swear the action adventure/hollywood crap is what brought the wwe down more than anything else. When the nWo and even HBK returned the fans were interested. It's what they did that turned people away. The same with the acquisition of wcw. They are cutting wrestlers, but I also think they should cut some of those damn people on creative too including his daughter.

Something's up people imo. Vince has some kind of "masterplan". I would not be surprised if we get "Real American" Hulk Hogan again. Seriously! Vince might think his main ticket back to the mainstream is to use the divided America angle with Hassan. Remember Vince cleaning out Bret Hart for Mike Tyson? It was around Survivor Series too. Maybe the brand split is coming to an end as well. Hopefully, they got something big in store or the jokes about Vince and Steph going back to Manhattan Centre could be true

I'm surprised this thread got so big as this rumour always comes up around Survivor Series. Vince won't do it and if he did you can bet people would be complaining he botched the concept. I'm not too sad since we have all seen what Vince has done with past wcw/nwa creations. It's not a pretty sight and maybe Vince is trying to save face by not bludgeoning another "can't miss" concept, but I think we know the real reason anyways. We have read his remarks about bringing back wcw with a negative tone. The elimination chamber is his version of the war games just like Ted Dibase was his version of Ric Flair, Demolition his version of Road Warriors, and the gang warz(DX/Nation and the lesser groups) his response to the nwo.

More cuts? You know I think there are other people who should be cut as well as I don't think they have any chance of being anything for the company. If they can bring in new people to replace them it would be fine in terms of filling out the two brands. Maybe he is thinking about eliminating the brand split

I was just wondering if others were thinking that Evolution might be coming to an end? To make it short here is why it could be happening. Triple H the bastard character he is sees the writing on the wall and will bail on the Evolution group. Orton was close to taking his postion and he was ousted. He used Batista and Flair to get the title off Orton and unto himself. He used Evolution to keep Orton from getting another shot as long as he's champion. He talks all self centred on raw this week leaving Batista and Orton hanging after he knew about the "locker room revolt". There are still things in the air like Flair shaking Orton's hands after the ppv match and Orton talking to Flair and Batista about HHH only thinking and caring about himself a few weeks back. Eric Bischoff has cut ties with Evolution after 2 years. Could this all be coincident or is the creative staff going to kill off Evolution? If they do, does anyone think it's a good idea?

Yeah, 2001 was not a good year creatively for Kurt Angle. How about the storyline he had as champion facing The Rock at No Way Out. Yeah, it was kind of realistic and somewhat funny, but damn if it didn't get the message across that Angle was an afterthought as champion. Then again, the wwe put the damn title on him at the wrong time anyways. 2002 was the real year he deserved the title and was over. I think if Kurt Angle had got Stephanie from HHH and had the image of being a mastermind that played the goof role to get to the top his career would have been stronger in the main event scene. They played some of this with the Brock angle, but that cowboy stuff and face/heel change dynamic of 2001 really hurt him. I think from SummerSlam 2002 onward Angle was booked good, but everything prior to that was weak and it has hurt his image with the masses.

This is true and that is a problem with the company booking for a wrestler's wishes. The thing is that means the show will always surround a heel champion and his gang winning over the faces. History shows that this is not going to help in the long run. It's already to the point where people just expect Triple H to win back the title and run through the faces. It creates apathy after awhile. Flair might be better used to create a new face superstar and group. Triple H is already over from his days battling Austin and Rock.

I know Bradshaw's kind of a stretch, but they COULD think about turning him face down the line. Remember for some odd reason he was somewhat over in the APA for his character. Yeah, I know...but could you see a battle between two Americans with conflicting attitudes? Who am I kidding they won't get that detailed

I have to agree about the wwe screwing up Angle in 2002 and I might have to say in 2001 as well. Okay, do people think the wwe might be having the option of Bradshaw/Angle for a title match? Obviously one would have turn, but Angle has an open storyline where he is the one responsible for Bradshaw as champion. Add in all the Americana stuff that might go with it and I wouldn't pass the wwe doing this. If the plan is for Angle to be dominant heading into Mania against someone else who becomes dominant this might be it. As been said by the wwe Bradshaw has not lost since before Mania by pinfall(tag no less).

Put me down on the list too

HHH trying to show Pat Patterson is wrong or what? Or maybe Vince is reall taking Pat's suggestion to see if HHH is killing raw.

I agree the wwe does need the one mega-superstar that the mainstream loves. I agree that the company did have holes during both boom periods. The thing is this. The wwe in those two boom periods were basically simple to follow and that was the whole point I was trying to make. They are trying to be too cute right now. Look at it from the time they started all of the hollywood stunts and "out there angles" post SummerSlam 2000. They had the big name stars such as Goldberg and the nWo and look how that turned out. It's more than simply having a guy to pull in the big numbers. If it was all that simple the wwe would have had the same format in 1998 to get Austin over as it did in the 80's to get Hogan over(it could be argued Hogan and Austin got the wwf over). The style and presentation are obviously different.

Okay, since my namesake is promoter I'll try to chime in here......and will dissect what I believe Meltzer is completely blind to. First the tv shows and the ratings not being what it was in 1999 which a lot of critics always allude to. Let's look at WHY the ratings were through the roof in 1999 without looking at it from a creative standpoint which is always subjective. Monday Night Raw use to go head to head with Nitro and that was the only show that was an A show for the wwe. Fans use to be able to get hyped up about seeing monday night raw. Sunday Night Heat use to be the show that set up angles for monday night raw and it gathered strong ratings and a strong lead in for ppv shows. This forumla was the best forumla for the company that garnered super buy rates in early 1999 as well as super ratings. The wwe still had the lesser shows like "wwf superstars" that use to be sunday night heat of its day. Saturday Night's Main Event use to be the equivalent of monday night raw in the 80's. Again, a big angle would happen on SNME and wwf superstars would be the lead in show for the ppv card. There were always two shows that built up to the ppv shows in both eras. The overexposure of the product came with the addition of smackdown. The early days of smackdown gave away a lot of hot stuff that would have been given to ppv shows. Smackdown came on the air in August 1999 and by the summer of 2000 the wwf was at a peak where things started to slide with the love triangle and the whodunit? angle with Austin. Just like Thunder adding Smackdown was overexposure. As Meltzer stated some within the company saw the troubles ahead because of this. The ratings and interest started to dwindle after only a year of smackdown on the air. The formula used in 1998 and early 1999 was gone as you did not have to watch the ppv shows since raw and smackdown were forced to give ppv quality entertainment weekly. The tv shows started to become more important. The decline of the new formula was stalled because of the jumps of Benoit and company and the wwf increasing the talent and waulity of matches in 2000. I wonder how things would have went if they did not get those guys in that year in the fashion they did. There might have been more "cute writing" to cover up the weakness of the midcard. I think the wwf even knew that a decline was on its way which is why they turned Austin heel in 2001 and probably one of the many reasons to purchase wcw. The problem really started to snowball when the wwf was still promoting things like there was a monday night war by rushing the angles like wcw's invasion and Austin's heel turn. However, it is wise to take note that maybe just maybe the timing was wrong as Austin turned heel at a time where fans really had nothing to cheer for with wcw's downfall and Rock leaving for hollywood. I think that year the wwe did too many mistakes and rushed things such as wcw's arrival in storylines. If you really look at everything in that year that was the year creative completely screwed up beyond repair. Austin's heel turn was a brilliant move imo(although the creative part could have been stronger), but he was not used in that role to make a new superstar babyface. He should have been used like Andre The Giant in 1987. Austin was on his last legs at the time and everyone knew it, but yet they did not book him for that one big downfall and comeuppance. They also screwed up the highly anticipated Rock/Austin rematch from WM 17. I think rushing the wcw stuff and having Rock face off with Booker did a lot of damage. Booker the champion of the competition comes in to get humilated by Rock and Rock does not get revenge for what Austin and Vince did to him at Mania 17. The nonsense booking took over for good there. Austin should have been used to elevate guys like Jericho, Benoit, Booker T, etc since he was in a heel position as champion. Triple H again was bad timing as I think that was the true time he could have taken advantage of being a super face. I think the night after Mania the fans were asking for it, but he stayed heel and since then the fans don't trust Hunter in a face role. You just can't trust his character. The Rock could have also springboarded into greater stuff if he was not wrapped up with hollywood in an Austin feud for the summer. Just to tie things up the wwe had Austin and Rock singing together killing off the heat from WM 17 where I believe the peak of interest was at its best since WM 15. The booking in 2001 and 2002 has caused all the problems of today and the overexposure from fall 1999 to fall 2000 has caused guys like Val Venis to be pigeonholed as guys who are not worthy of superstar status. The reason all of this went forward without detection or more like worry is that the business was hot from the comeback in 1998. I mean there is a bunch of stuff such as HHH's return and how they booked his feud with Jericho. Instead of making it mean something just as Austin/Rock the company played it more along the lines of "sports entertainment" than pro wrestling in that there were comedy skits and hollywood aspects. The problem with this is that the guys who got over such as Triple H, Rock, and Austin were already seen as legit pro wrestlers because how they were booked in 1998 and 1999. When guys like Jericho and Angle got to the top they were booked like jokes and jokes don't draw. Benoit was kind of getting over this year because he's kind of old school and not a comedy act. His problem is that he was pigeonholed from his days in 2000-2002 when he did have a lot of heat coming from wcw. Then you got the brand extension and the original purpose of this was to create new stars. It was also a neccessity with all the talent that came over from the wcw acquisition. It was needed to give all the star power equal time. You had guys like Hulk Hogan, The Rock, Austin, HHH, the nWo, under the umbrella. Historically, having all these stars under one roof creates a problem and the brand extension fixed this problem by giving these men their time to shine as the big stars by being on separate brands. Right now the brand extenstion really serves no purpose as there isn't a plethora of big name stars that Vince needs to cater to. It is kind of an excuse that they need two shows to give time to create new stars. I talked above how they made new stars in 1998 and 1999 under a different system that had also worked in the 80's. They could use the two shows and alternate the stars accordingly without limiting matches and storylines. The good thing is that they can keep the stars away from each other that they don't want fighting. Okay, going off the sunday night heat-raw-ppv model the wwe can use perhaps raw as the flagship show(which they still promote) with the big title matches and have smackdown be sort of like sunday night heat circa 1999. I agree that they should unify the titles and go back to what was used all along, but Vince would have to put down the law and have certain guys job that need to job and cut down on all the politicking done by guys like UT. What to do with the current b-shows? You have them become worlds of their own. This is where Vince can mold the lower and newer talent by having them get over, so when he plucks them away from the shows they will be somewhat credible and over. It's a sort of system that existed for Vince Mcmahon in the last boom eras where he would steal ideas and talent from ecw/wcw and pluck them into his company. They would get over and Vince would know their strengths and weaknesses and bring them on the "A" and "B" shows of raw and smackdown. This would help with fan perception as well and stop stuff like Maven jobbing on Heat last month and then all of a sudden appear as a main eventer this month(although it could have something to do with Tough Enough on smackdown). That's it for now as I don't want this to be too long winded

Doesn't SilverVision have some kind of rights to the shows which is why they have released them in the first place? Again, these DVD releases are in Toronto as we speak(not the latest ones in this thread though).

I think they have made Booker T into Lex Choker myself. I bet more fans expect him to choke again at Survivor Series. If he goes over he is going over a lame champion and most might not care. I think coming up short at the big Mania card last year really damaged his stock with fans. I mean Goldust broke the tag team up to allow Booker to go on to bigger things. He had the legacy of the wcw on his back and also had to show Triple H up for being racist in the storyline and he lost. I think they really messed up Booker there. That was his time to recuperate what he lost during the Invasion angle where he wasn't even in the unification tournament(see what I mean they ruined him from get go) when he was the real last reigning wcw champion(why no feud with wwf champion Austin?).

I live in Toronto and they have recently released some of these tagged classics such as the HBK and History of Mania dvd. So, I guess there must be some North American playability.

People are now accepting JBL as a credible wwe champion? I mean when JBL is making inside jokes about his championship reign with such "classic" barbs such as being a technical wizard like Bret Hart, being the most popular champion of all-time, and being the single greatest athlete to ever hold the belt I guess it must have some credibility to it. He couldn't be doing a wink of an eye to people who know he sucks. Seriously, he SUCKS! Sure his character is growing on people when he steals Ted Dibase's gig and is pushed down people's throats. Now granted, I think anyone given this similar push would suck with the talent level of Bradshaw. The brand has only started to focus on Bradshaw at the moment which could be a sign that they are ready for him to job the title. He might have been better for the US championship, but I think I rather Carlito's push at the moment. I like Booker and all, but he is over-rated on the net. I think the wwe ruined him by letting Rock destroy him when he first came on the scene. However, I would buy him as champ much quicker than JBL. When someone had the ability of actually making people believe he would win the title over Triple H he has to have some kind of value. How many people actually seem like a threat to win over Trips? Of course, we know how that went and where he went after that feud. I just pray that JBL doesn't do the same kind of angle and Booker loses again. With all that said I wouldn't be surprised to see Bradshaw hold the damn belt at least until Royal Rumble. The wwe seems content with pushing heel champions for extended periods of time over babyface champions since the brand split. Okay, so if Booker ends up being the transition champion for Angle I want to know what in the hell is going to happen if we get Taker/Angle at Mania. That means Taker gets the belt or Angle gets a win over Taker? I think either way we are stuck with a horrible outcome. If Orton goes over Trips at Mania I really don't think there will be two title changes.

!!! What was this about? Mr Perfect stole the WWF Title belt, and, on the Brother Love Show, used a hammer to smash it up into pieces. Hogan later took the broken belt in his hands, and began to cry. Supertar Billy Graham and Bob Backlund did the same angle back when SBG returned to the WWF during his second big stint. Backlund lost a ton of heat with thhe crying, because he came off as so babyish. Actually, Mr. Perfect stole the belt from ringside when Hogan had a non-title match with "The Genius" Lanny Poffo on Saturday Night's Main Event(now that show had classics). They then proceeded to smash the belt in the interview room. Hogan got a hold of the belt and said "The only thing that will be Perfect, Mr. Perfect is the perfect defeat of you" as Hogan looks down at the broken pieces on the leather held in his hand like a platter. Another folklore about WM 6's main event actually had Mr. Perfect going against Hogan with this being the set up. It was also thought that Perfect would go over Hogan for the strap to retain the Perfect record, but the old school mentality of not wanting a heel go over in the main of Mania prevented it. How different would things have been with that direction? Hogan and Perfect did the blow-off match on the post Mania 6 SNME card on NBC with Perfect getting the secondary title soon after in a tournament. Speaking of Hogan, how could "They were identical...IDENTICAL" be left out? The twin referee angle was classic. Hogan was actually crying. Another great moment was the time Andre put a beatdown on Hogan that even the locker room came out and got its tail kicked by Andre. Hacksaw Jim Duggan came out with his 2x4 and broke it over Andre's back. His destruction of the British Bulldogs was hilarious. The show faded with Andre holding the belt around his waist or at least attempting to hold it around his waist. Only if Big Show had that kind of aura.

Usually, I'm the Hogan apologist on the internet. I was joking with Hogan retiring with the belt. The only time in his wwf tenure where I felt he phoned it in during a job was with Taker at Survivor Series. He just did not have that fire that night like he did in his other losses. It could have also been Hogan losing his magic as well due to aging. I think Hogan's steam was running out after SummerSlam that year(although he still did have things to do such as the dream match with Flair). Hogan and Warrior steam was not the same in 1991 as it was in 1990 for whatever reason. Taker was actually gaining steam.

Some great stuff here. The Red Rooster/Brooklyn Brawler segment brought up made me laugh because it was pretty funny for the silliness of it all. Just add some I think should get mentioned... Bret Hart re-uniting with his family on raw. I mean Owen(R.I.P) trying to cry was hilarious, but it was a great segment. I don't know if anyone remembers Bret's promo on America when he says...."I'm the best, there is, was, and ever will be. You people are tired of me saying this(with a collective YES by the crowd and responds with)Now you know how the rest of the world feels". I mean the whole crowd just shuts up. Funny as hell with Bret Hart acting like a king in his wheelchair. Another incident was with Shawn Michaels in some Canadian city when he was announced as the special ref for the SummerSlam match. He made fun of Canadian soldiers and so on. The way he built up to the announcement was fantastic. He said he went to the boss(looked at Vince) and asked to work SummerSlam, but he didn't want to be in the opening match, the middle of the card, but the MAIN EVENT and Vince decided to make him special referee. Bret came out and roughed up Vince Mcmahon. It's funny how things played out later in the year. Austin giving Mike Tyson the finger. Savage attacking Steamboat with the ringbell The DX re-union with HHH turning on Shawn Shawn collapsing because of the Owen kick(classic and well done) Mr. Perfect smashing the wwf title to pieces Anyone remember the Hart Foundation headquarters? I can't recall it by detail, but it did make me laugh. That's it for now.

You doubt Hulk Hogan's inflated ego wouldn't pass the idea of him RETIRING WITH THE BELT? You got me with Vince's stubbornness He probably did think Sgt. Slaughter vs. Hogan would sell out the Coliseum(It was a badass Rambo Hogan poster). Too bad Vince did not read our mainstream media mocking Slaughter as champion with lines like...The wwf went to the old folks home to stroll out Sgt. Slaughter and he's suppose to be a threat to Hulk Hogan?....

Maybe it had to do with the OBVIOUS "never get a title shot" stipulation to the match Orton accepted where it was OBVIOUS Evolution would screw him out of said title shot. I mean we have only seen this happen just this year with Benoit on smackdown right? Or how about last year with Brock Lesnar? And maybe the fans could care less Orton does or doesn't get a title shot. Maybe Flair IS a joke. I mean he was basically buried on Kimmel's show.

Just to add some more folklore about Hogan/Warrior in 1990 and the fabled rematch that never took place is that Ric Flair was said to be in the crowd at skydome and was in talks with Vince Mcmahon. I don't know how true this is, but when you see Sting go over Flalater in the year it could mean wcw was trying to phase Flair out and he knew it, so he talked with Vince. This is complete folklore in Toronto though. He did show up a little over a year later in the wwf though with another nwa mainstay Road Warriors. I suppose Flair would have said this in his book(never read it) if it had any truth to it. It's interesting though. I have my doubts Vince really believed Sgt. Slaughter vs. Hulk Hogan wwf title match would sell over 100,000 tickets for Mania 7. I believe it must have had something to do with Warrior and Hogan, but yeah there is no confirmation that the match was planned to happen at all. I suppose that goes with the rumour that Hogan was going to have his retirement match at WM 7. The roots were set up with the Earthquake program where Hogan was not the same as he was before the match with Warrior. I did hear that Warrior vs. Piper was being built up as the title match. Anyone watching back then knows that Piper was not very kind to Ultimate Warrior during his commentary. Piper was supposedly going to turn heel and challenge Warrior. Piper as we know had the hip problems shortly after SummerSlam 90.

I know Hogan didn't take the title off Warrior. I was illustrating the title was taken off Warrior for Hulk Hogan with the job to Sgt. Slaughter. Warrior refusing to lose the title to Hogan is the first time I've ever heard that reasoning for not doing the rematch. From what I gathered Vince Mcmahon did not like to repeat Mania main events at the time. I did hear rumours right here in Toronto a week later he jobbed to Warrior that Hogan was going to return and retire at WM 7 with a title rematch. This was rumoured because Hogan was thinking about leaving wrestling for hollywood like The Rock currently has. As you mentioned Warrior bombed and that changed plans(put the title back on Hogan to kill time for the replacement which Hogan by 1992 didn't want to do) and Vince ran the angle with Sid at WM 8. Vince brought in Sid thinking he could replace Hogan. Anyone who watched back then could tell from the way he was being promoted before even entering. When I say Bret Hart did a "jump stunt" I am talking about Bret's ultimatum to Vince Mcmahon after SummerSlam. Bret Hart was offered a contract by wcw to jump and he considered it. It was even said the conversation had Bret saying "no belt, no Bret". You are right about Warrior and Vince was put on a spot, so he agreed to Bret's demands. Bret was in a good position to do this at the time because he was the one really headlining SummerSlam with British Bulldog. Flair was not allowed to win the title because of Warrior, but because Bret going over Ric Flair would be easier to get over with fans than him going over Randy Savage. Warrior held up Vince for money again around Survivor Series where Hart was already champion. Warrior and Savage were doing the Mega-Maniacs program with Flair and Ramone. I also do know about the ear imbalance Flair had at the time, but that is not the whole story why Bret became champion and REMAINED champion. Hart being billed as the "fightingest champion" and the "best there is, was, and ever will be" over "the greatest of all-time" was not by accident although it came off like that in storylines.