Promoter

I bet the wwe even knows this, but I can see someone always saying it's better in the long run to remain champion until that big crowd favourite is groomed to get the big win everyone is waiting for. I bet Triple H will keep on singing this song until he retires killing off all potential babyfaces. I really want to see how this Orton/HHH things plays out. I bet he might say Orton is not clicking as they thought he would and they might pencil in Cena for the main event of Mania 21. I won't spoil things for smackdown for anyone else.

I guess they can have it as a spin the wheel make a deal ppv where Bischoff allows Evolution to make the show. I mean, he was the man who allowed that fantastic January ppv No Souled Out into the homes of the world.

I guess people have forgotten those animals who ran the zoo in wcw not too long ago too. The effects of those decisions are still felt today that's for sure. Hell, one of the guys recently admitted in mainstream media that they ran Turner's organization. I mean Eric Bischoff's lack of desire to be on creative didn't just appear in the last two years imo. Hell, I remember Bischoff admitting a lot of the Hogan stuff in wcw was his idea and that Hogan also had a lot of the ideas for Vince in the 80's in terms of the main event scene.

The wwe loves to stretch things don't they. First stretching the talent with this brand extension and now this. You can only stretch a rubber band so much before it completely busts. I guess we should expect more rushed "created superstars" and "mindblowing storylines" to fill all these ppv hours.

That's why it's kind of hard to guage where his place in history is at the moment. If we take history of it RIGHT NOW I honestly think his being married to Stephanie Mcmahon means nothing. Nothing significant has happened since he hooked up with her a few years back. Rock and Austin would still blow him away. Rock is all over the place from A&E to the big screen and Austin sold the most merchandise of all time. They also had the Hogan/Andre feud of this era. HHH would be battling HBK for something of Flair's status. Flair however is still bigger than both of them because he was always compared to Hogan in the 80's in terms of who the real champ was. The environment Trips is in right now breeds nothing of any significance. He'd be remembered for early 2001 for fighting against Rock and Foley. HBK is a different story as his historic piece is the infamous screwjob and one of the greatest rivalries ever that spawned the whole attitude era.

You should ask Ric Flair what he REALLY felt about the first Survivor Series and what it did to him as World Champion of the NWA? History buffs know why. I'd like to see the political response to that. You should also ask Ric Flair what he thinks about his contemparies from the 80's not being with the wwe today and why he is still there. I would like to see the political response to that as well. Hopefully, this would make him think what he is doing to his legacy when he goes to sleep at night.

Some interesting comments here. As for the topic's question I can't really say, but I will take a hypothetical approach. What if Triple H went down with an injury or God forbid went the way of other wrestlers in their early 40's(which could happen if you think about it). First, I will say I don't really have anything too much against the guy and was actually a huge mark for him at one point, but the truth is the truth. I think it is rather ridiculous for the wwe to actually believe the masses will ever take this guy seriously as the "greatest of all-time", but that is what the company line would be. The masses WILL NOT think of him as the greatest. To the disgust of some people HULK HOGAN will STILL have that accolade. I think the year 2002 and the rabid fans who cheered Hogan like crazy were showing their respect for the man who they feel is the greatest. HHH WILL NEVER have that kind of response. Not even Ric Flair gets it and he is more respected by the wrestling audience. Hogan is larger than life and I believe he will still be seen as the greatest. Everyone knows Hogan put the business into the mainstream like no other. He was unique and had a certain awe to him. The stuff of Muhammad Ali. HHH doesn't even come close, but he will try to weasel his way unto that level. HHH has Ric Flair calling him the greatest and has a victory over the man in his last title shot to date(you think that's by accident?). He also went over Ric Flair in the first night the "world heavyweight title" returned on raw. That I'm sure will be used in revisionist history as the passing of the torch of the big gold belt. He goes over Shawn Michaels who they proclaim is the greatest all around athlete in history(Angle could try and work his way to that claim, but the wwe won't give it to him*company line goes a long way*). He not only has victories over The Rock and Steve Austin, but he won the friggin feuds. All this is carefully calculated to make him the greatest. There is a big difference though. This is not the 80's. The fans are more sharp and even the least informed fans can smell the rat with Triple H. Hogan could get away with going over guys like Savage(Triple H is not even at his level during his heel days of 86 and face pops of 88 imo), Dibase, Perfect, and so on because he legitimately seemed to match his booking. Triple H for the most part does not. Now, as Loss said earlier this may seem contradicting, but Triple H right now is the top guy. However, he is so because the real stars are gone and the masses know this. All the woes of the wwe can't be blamed on him, but a majority of it can. In the 80's the wwe had the bigger stars, but Flair still kept his company afloat against the monster til perhaps the middle of '89 and early 90. Flair helped elevate guys like Steamboat and Sting. Yes, I know Steamboat was really big, but he was never world champion in the wwf. I think it should really be examined that Triple H HAS been overpushed and it doesn't justify the booking. As someone said he is average, but he will be remembered as a good champion and rightfully so. However, take a close look at this and then decide how this man can really ever get anywhere close to Rock, Flair, Hogan and Austin. In 1995-6, HHH enters the wwf in a gimmick that is a rip off of Ric Flair's. Why didn't this get over? Because it was a poor man version of Ric Flair. As stated if Triple H came in the wwe today he would have probably been sent back to OVW like Mordecai. The wwe saddles him Mr. Perfect during his program run for the IC title because Perfect was a popular IC champion in the early 90's. He gets punished for the Kliq incident at MSG which is used as a gimmick in 1999 for My Time. He gets tha amazon lady Chyna in his corner. He is then put with Shawn Michaels who was pushed as the "new generation leader". A little off topic here to counterpoint the claims that HBK sucked as champion in the drawing department in 1996. I think the biggest mistake the wwe did with Shawn Michaels is what they are doing now with Randy Orton and even John Cena. In 1995, Shawn Michaels was the top heel, but it could have been argued he was the top face. They turned him after WM 11 and he still kept some of his heel edge all the way up to SummerSlam '95 with the ladder match with Razor(two faces and HBK didn't suck up to people). They ran a nice little angle in the fall that Cena might be ripping off now. He came back and was crowned the champion at Mania with Jose Lothario. The wwe was winning the ratings and so on. HBK was still "cool", but guess what? What does the wwe always do? They turned the guy into what they turned Diesel in 1995. A kissing babies, grandma crossing, sissy. They had just ran an angle a few months prior with Nash turning tweener about this and they go and do the same damn thing with HBK. I'm sorry, they BOTHCED HBK's championship reign before the nWo had a chance to even start. It didn't help matters either that Bret was running down HBK as not really being worthy of the title because of the cheap over-time victory. It's revisionist history now, but there WAS no time limit in the program. I have the HBK DVD where if you watch the extras with Piper doing the promo the wwe edits out the part that there must be a winner win, lose, or draw within the hour. This may be nitpicking, but I can bet that if this happened today under the same circumstances a lot of people would pick up these things as botching HBK's chances at the top. It didn't help matters either that he never really had that great a roster to work with either. You have Warrior showing up(they missed that chance of a match) and leave. You have Vader being mishandled. Sid showing up. Then in one fell swoop Eiric Bischoff gets with the times and has Hall, Nash, and Hogan remain "risque" and not turn goody two shoes(how much people wanna bet if Vince got that in his hands he would have turned them into goody two shoes because they were popping crowds and ratings?). The wwe tried to do damage control on HBK's character in the fall with "I lost my edge", but it was too little too late as he seemed like he was copying Hogan and company. I always saw people coming down on HBK's failure to draw and wanted to say this and I guess I've sidetracked here, but it goes to show how time changes perception which it might with HHH. Notice the booking of HBK here and how it hurt the company compared to what I illustrate with HHH's booking to the top and on top. Yeah, that HHH guy. He is lucky enough to be embroiled in two big stories in the fall of 97 with HBK. The first was the Montreal Screwjob and the other was the night Rude showed up on raw and nitro. DX was gaining steam under the HBK that should have been pushed as champion in 1996. Vince GOT IT! Too bad HBK got hurt. HHH was also on the coattails of the Mike Tyson/DX storyline. He takes over DX from HBK and is put into situations where the group is out on a mission to "Free Hall and Nash". Take note that HHH is surrounded by a lot of big stories of the day and not really doing anything big to warrant this push, but be the friend of HBK. In 1999, the Vince Mcmahon/Austin saga is winding down and the wwf needs a new poer heel to replace him for Austin. The Rock was turned face because he was forced to by the fans. HHH fell into a position that was required and not because of some massive appeal to be put into the spot. The Big Show probably would have got it, but we know the story there just coming from the rival wcw. So, Triple H gets the Randy Orton super push circa 1999 and was suppose to go over Austin. Austin felt he wasn't ready. Whether or not true at the time we'll leave up in the air. HHH doesn't get pinned at SummerSlam and his heat is saved by going over Foley on raw the next night. He is forced down everybody's throat with it being "My Time". Sounds something similar to "Destiny" doesn't it? Okay, I think he was screwed with Mcmahob beating him for the belt. That couldn't have helped any, but he ended up getting victories over Austin at house shows and the No Mercy ppv anyways as champion. Okay, the Big Show nonsense came into play here, but Trips was still protected with the loss and he hooks up with the Stephanie Mcmahon. Notice he is always being pitted with a backdrop. It could be argued Stephanie Mcmahon was more over than Triple H at the time. He gets the title back as the wwe is DETERMINED to get this guy over as a main eventer as we enter the year he gets praised for all the time(and rightfully so, but how could he NOT get over). He gets a victory over Foley at MSG in his kind of match. To illustrate the issue even more he retires him the following month. Was this enough to make him headline WrestleMania as a real draw? NOPE! He retires one of the most beloved characters of all-time and the wwf still didn't trust him to headline WM in a traditional sense. The wwe has him defend the title against Foley and Rock where everyone and their mother had to predict a victory for one of the faces. Triple H went over The Rock(his peak of popularity) and Foley(sentimental coming out of "retirement" match). THIS IS WHAT GOT TRIPLE H OVER as a main eventer. Look how they made sure to force this guy to become a major player. Did this happen with Rock, Hogan, Austin, Flair or heck even Ultimate Warrior(his push matched his popularity). I dare say even guys like Savage and Hart didn't get anything close to this kind of booking. Sure you can't give anyone this kind of booking and expect them to get over, but as someone said there are other guys who would get just as over and perhaps even more with this kind of booking. Trips goes on as the "Flair/HBK 2000" with matches Jericho, Benoit, Taka, and Rock. Now, can we honestly say that Bret Hart and HBK even came close to this roster in terms of challengers and had anywhere this kind of booking? Hey, bring back Kreski to make Trips interesting again I say! Anyways, he enters another storyline after NOT jobbing the title to Rock with the hot newcomer Kurt Angle(Eugene 2004 anyone in the summer?). Who knows how the politics went with that, so we'll leave it up in the air. However, I say this. If Kurt Angle had got Trips' wife and then went on to take the title off Rock at No Mercy who thinks someone's position as the number one heel would be greatly threatened? Who would be able to play face, but would also battle for the #1 face spot with the red hot Rock and the returning Steve Austin? Yep HHH. So, who ends up taking the number one heel spot with the Austin angle? Triple H. Why they couldn't let ol' Rikishi be another heel threat to Triple H along with Kurt Angle could they? Why of course not. Triple H is the greatest heel of all-time . Why now head into Austin/Trips and booking that would make sense says Austin goes over, but he doesn't. Now, I know some won't believe, but at the time I felt Austin losing triggered my belief he would really turn heel. There were signs even from the murder of HHH(again, he shows superpowers to return from that, while Austin got much less damage a year prior and he couldn't return for a full year*keep that in mind). The reason I felt this way was that Austin showed a frustration with trying to defeat HHH and if he showed a frustration with defeating The Rock he would have to use the chair multiple of times on Rock to win. Watch the HHH match again and see Austin used the multiple chair shots spot on HHH which sclued me that Austin was "going over the edge". Anyways, we know HHH went on to face UT at WM 17 and did a political job where losing to Taker doesn't hurt because everyone loses to him at WM 17. I would just like to wonder what the backstage stuff was about with HBK and HHH at the time. Remember HBK was going to return at the event? Who knows, maybe HBK/HHH was suppose to happen there and the two guys who have a case of jobbitis couldn't agree on who should win. Anyways, that is pure conspiracy stuff on my part. Anyways, Austin turns heel and instead of HHH going face he stays heel again. As I side note I think the two chances for HHH to go face in 2000 and 2001 might have ruined his chances of fans trusting this guy to ever be a face again. Okay, we know he gets injured and is gone and the wwe screws up Austin's heel turn and the Invasion. However, we see videos of HHH on the shows in recuperation to make sure he gets a face pop when he returns. Austin in the meantime becomes the exact opposite of what made him popular. Now, not to start any conspiracies or anything, but I could see the wwe banking on Triple H the superface to carry the company upon his return and damaging Austin's character. Regardless, the opening was there for Triple H to take the spot of top face because Rock for the most part started to become a part-time movie star. HHH returns and is pushed as the top face and we know the rest of the story from there. There are a few bumps in the road like the surprise face reaction for Hogan and the ridiculous out of the blue face turn of Austin which kept him lukewarm. The wwe wanted Trips to take over as the top face and we know what happened there. The guys like Benoit and whatnot were not completely disenfranchised at the moment in terms of stock and credibility with the fans. Lesnar finally started to get a response around SummerSlam '01 and wins the title. HHH is turned back heel to face Shawn Michaels. Now if this was anyone else I'm pretty damn sure Vince would not bother putting back into the championship picture after the abysmal run as champion. However, HHH was again a world champion by stripping half of Lesnar's belt. If this was someone like Benoit winning and losing a title he would still be stuck in the upper/main event scene, but not in the championship level. The proof is there with Jericho, Eddie, Benoit, and even Angle. That is where the Evolution thing was brought in. The wwe saddled him with a backdrop AGAIN for him to keep his heat and what better backdrop than Ric Flair and a 4 horsemen rip-off. In the meantime guys like RVD who came in the invasion and was somewhat a potential star for the future is made to be looked like a fool. Booker T soon came to follow. All the guys who were somewhat saved from the Invasion were made underneath by Triple H and got that far because he was out the year before. Now, I actually believed Trips should have gone over them, but it's the way he went over them. He didn't try to make them look good like how Austin was doing for Benoit and Angle in 2001 as heel champion. 2003 came with the big build up for him and Goldberg and look how that played out. Now, take all this into account with this year where he hides behind losing the strap in a 3 way and takes the title off a guy that was getting momentum in Orton. The story of the summer was not Benoit world champion, but HHH continuing his feud with HBK and HHH on a losing streak against Benoit, Benjamin and Eugene. Of course, that is not counting the draft lottery that has him as the most valuable pick. We are where we are now with Triple H as champion again and project Orton somewhat of a bust. Triple H the new Hulk Hogan? HA! At least Hogan helped to put TWO companies on the map with his politics in wcw(he deserved his push in the wwf in the 80's people). Long rant, but I felt all this stuff had to be considered with the true worth of Triple H.

You got him there! All this important business stuff and Vince is still a hardhead to fix problems. He's lucky that some tv execs don't truly understand how creative is messing up since 2000. It's funny as many people say things went south as soon as SummerSlam 2000 and the post raw show went off the air with the mishandling of stuff like the love triangle. No big fight for the rights of wwe shows and who can blame them?

To the post asking about the Russo and Hart comments about Patterson's creative genius for match structure and finishes need to check the archives at their respective sites. That is where I read it and I don't know if it's still online. To those who think Patterson leaving is not that big a deal and is similar to Russo leaving in 1999 should re-consider. Vince Mcmahon actually had Pat as his right hand man and the man he would go to when he wanted certain matches to succeed and to play out in a certain way. When Russo left in 1999, Vince Mcmahon was already putting a lot of veto on his ideas and was upset about Russo wanting some big chunk of shares in the company. Actually, Russo was friggin terrible in 1999(post WM 15 things started to suck) and Vince probably knew it as well which is why he started to veto his stuff. Russo did however at least have the pulse on what CAN work which is why coming to wcw made waves. You got to remember how terrible wcw was becoming and Russo had also ran out of his best stuff in the wwe. The talk was he would rejuvenate himself in wcw with people thinking he would do stuff like the nWo properly since he done the Austin/Vince saga well(right up until the end of an era match). Vince Mcmahon was on point back then for knowing when to stop Russo's crap and he isn't now and his right hand man is telling him his judgement to overpush Triple H is the big problem. I mean does anyone honestly believe if Triple H had the same relatinship with Vince Mcmahon in 1997-1998 that he wouldn't have been de-pushed already since flopping with the mainstream in 2002? You saw how Vince Mcmahon trounced Bret Hart for not bringing in the business in 1997 after only ONE YEAR of the multi-year contract. You saw what he did in 1993 with Hulk Hogan for failing to bring in the business as well. A farewell match where he basically got squashed by Yokozuna. However, this same Hulk Hogan returns in 2002 and has more babyface heat than Triple H, but Trips is still pushed as the centre piece on raw. Why was it only Jericho depushed after that debacle of a "main event" at WM 18? Steve Austin in 2002 sickened by the politics of Triple H along with other things walked out. The Rock is well documented even in mainstream media for taking jabs at the politics of Triple H without naming any names. Does anyone truly believe if Trips wasn't a relative Vince would take him over his two biggest stars of the last boom? I'm actually a Trips fan for the most part, but he IS overpushed and the company is based too much around him. What was the purpose of Benoit making him tap out clean at Mania this year when Benoit is basically back in the same position he was before going to raw? Pat Patterson alone leaving won't be the death of the wwe, but look at all these things I'm mentioning and see if this is not damaging the company. Patterson talks negatively toward Triple H and all of a sudden he's retiring. Yeah, what a coincidence. Maybe he wanted to say that before he retired too who knows. All I can say is Verne Gagne 2004 folks.

I wonder what it will take for Vince to see the damn light. Maybe if Shane disowns him that might work Seriously, I called this in another thread. Vince just lost the best guy he had to structure a match and come up with great finishes. Russo and Hart have both said it publicly that someone like Patterson was needed in wcw for match structure and finishes which they were very poor at. I wonder how this will affect matches now.

You got me there

I was thinking more along the lines what storyline Vince Mcmahon and Ted Turner could cook up and present for TNT and TBS. I know AOL/Time Warner pretty much nailed the coffin shut on wcw being on its channels, but I also think if there is a new person in charge of programming and Vince Mcmahon and Ted Turner were serious about making some cash again what kind of proposal can be done to have wrestling return by next September. I'm thinking of the creative options that would be available. The wwe does OWN wcw and it also does have two separate wrestling brands. I'm sure they can concoct something that can rival what happened in 1995/1996 in terms of a monday night war and the "takeover" storyline. The wwe still does get top ten ratings for all the ragging we do about the show. It's good business sense to at least look at a proposal. I have an idea, but won't get into it yet.

JasonX, that was a sarcastic question.

Slayer, I think that was one thing Hogan complained about when he had teamed up with Lesnar in his last run. He stated the guys weren't responding to how the crowd was acting and going off the planned match. I think they have tried to make the wrestlers do this lately according to some "reports". It's having the right instincts and timing to get the audience into the match. I agree that I don't like how the wrestlers act like they are in a studio. I think that goes back to my earlier post about the 80's and the presentation that took things as a sporting event. Austin's run was tremondous in 1998 and 1999 because the angle was new for the most part. After WM 15 it has been rehashed too much. Austin won the title fairly defeating Vince's "boy" HBK(remember the screwjob that got him the title). Vince did not want Austin as champion because of PR reasons. Austin was robbed of the title at KOR. He won it back and dropped the title to UT/Kane in a master plan by Vince. His only way to get another title shot was winning the Royal Rumble. He did and went on to face another one of Vince's "boys" in The Rock. The buy-rate was through the roof. In 2000, they flipped the script with Rock getting screwed in the main event of Mania and the heel winning. In 2001, Austin returned and became a heel too in their match-up. However, since 2002 the same old has happened with Triple H, Lesnar, and Benoit getting the similar push. The problem was that all these men did not get the strong face push heading into Royal Rumble that captivated the masses like Austin in 1998 and 1999. I actually liked Benoit's storyline for this year though. Triple H and Lesnar's copycat storyline of Austin's was weak though.

Tjhe CyNick, that is a good observation. There is no defining "face" of the wwe at the moment. The best chances were Goldberg and Lesnar. I know it's beating a dead horse, but isn't it ironic that since 2000(which was a profitable and critically acclaimed year) the wwe has not done traditional wwf booking? I always did see the argument that the chase for gold is better than having the gold which I disagree with. If strong contenders are made for the champion the champ would remain strong. The case used was Rock's title reign in 2000 compared to Triple H and people believing Rock's chase of the title was more interesting than being champion. Well, that may have been true, but the problem was HHH was still the main focus with his love triangle feud. Rock was basically in the same kind of position that Benoit was in this summer. I do believe Brock was mishandled and I think Brock should have won his first world title at WrestleMania 19. He should have won the I-C title first. Drop the IC title and win the Rumble. Again, it's in hindsight, but seeing Brock gaining steam and then losing it around Survivor Series '02 to Big Show.

He has won matches over the man his childhood hero called the greatest performer of all-time(actually his father in-law has claimed he to be as well) Who might that be? Hogan? The Undertaker? I don't know either. Vince Mcmahon his father in-law has proclaimed Shawn Michaels as the greatest all around performer he has ever had.

Yep, that time of year again where rumours fly that this is UT's last run and retires at Mania.

I think he made some good points, but I believe the wwe should combine the best of the 80's boom with the 90's attitude boom. I will try to write a better essay on what the core problem of the wwe is. It's just that they don't know how to implement the best of the 80's and 90's without dragging down the product. I will start off with what Raven said with his quote. I mean everyone knows this is entertainment. The problem is the differing views on what the entertainment should entail. I agree about things being character driven, but I also believe that it's really about the story-telling and the depth of the characters. On the same level of importance is the actual in-ring performance. You got to deliver in the ring or all the great storytelling and character development will not get the product far for too long. It has been proven since 1999. I will start with the 1980's. I think many people always remember the latter 80's when the wwf got really cartoonish. Notice that the business started to fade with that direction in the early 90's. The true strength in the 80's was the realism and presentation that what we were seeing was a sporting event. I believe this should be implemented today. The atmosphere of events I say from 1985-1987 made wrestling unique. Let's look at the top storylines of the time period and the performances to back it up. Exhibit A The biggest match-up of the time period was Hulk Hogan vs. Andre "The Giant". What was the storyline for this match? That Hulk Hogan would defend the wwf heavyweight title against Andre the Giant in a battle of the undefeated. Hogan undefeated as champion against Andre who was undefeated for 15 years. Andre turned heel because it stated that Bobby Heenan got his suspension lifted and got in his ear about being undefeated and not getting a title shot against his "friend" Hulk Hogan. Where did all this back story go down? On Piper's Pit. Roddy Piper who also just returned and won back his interview spot from Adrian Adonis. Piper who was a heel returned as a face because of the story with Adonis. Piper who was the main heel against Hogan was now befriending Hogan in his time of betrayal from Andre the Giant. Andre was so sure of a victory he had his own belt made and presented to him on Piper's Pit. The wwf continued the rivalry on SNME by having Hogan get thrown out by Andre in a battle royal making the encounter for WM 3 more anticipated. The two faced off and the match had a lot of heat. At the event the wwf even added more long term depth to the show by showing Hogan's championship victory celebration with Andre. Hogan ended up winning the match by slamming Andre the Giant. There was controversy in the match to set up a future rematch which we all know went down on prime time television a year later. This is awesome storytelling and the characters delivered in the ring in terms of aura and ring presence. The storyline was a simple story of betrayal between friends over a championship. Jealousy over success and somewhat of a mentor vs. student backdrop where Hogan said he always wanted to be like Andre the Giant. The fact that this all seemed realistic and based in reality sold the match as epic instead of telling us it's epic. *If this was done today the wwe would pull it off like Hogan having destiny to defeat Andre the Giant to supplant the Hulkamania era. That it was a passing of the torch match. They would TELL us this instead of letting it happen and having fans decide that it was. When you shove it down people's throat in this manner it takes away what it truly could be. They would try to manufacture this match as the defining moment taking away the magic. Exhibit B The Intercontinental Title was revered as the "hot potato" title held by wrestling technicians. The title was defined just like the heavyweight title. The title was a tool unto itself regardless of the character/storyline. Randy Savage was a defending champion who was threatened by Steamboat as a challenger and tried to not only defeat him, but eliminate him from the sport. Steamboat gets injured where even the "Living Legend" Bruno Sammartino got sickened by his display and went on to challenge him. Steamboat returns in a title defense of Savage against George Steele which was also a well-defined feud where Steele loved his manager Elizabeth. Steele was his top challenger for a year before the Savage incident and Steamboat's backdrop was Steele in his corner. Steamboat won the match in a classic at WM 3 in front of a record crowd. *If done today. Steamboat would get injured and return a month later to win the championship taking away the virtuous Steamboat's return from injury to help George Steele in his feud and get into it with Savage in his first "medically cleared" ppv title challenge. Exhibit C Randy Savage became WWF heavyweight champion by winning the only championship tournament in the history of the company. The build up to the tournament was excellent where Hogan the popular champion was robbed of the title on national television. Savage ended up winning the title against the man who orchestrated the robbery of the championship in Ted Dibase. He got help from Hogan whom he made a Mega-Power partnership a few months earlier on SNME when he came to help Elizabeth and Savage. Savage's reign went on for a year, but the problem was Hogan was seen as the real champion. Savage the champion felt this, but did not say anything. He also felt Hogan was moving in on his manager. The whole thing built up to the mega-powers exploding on national television. Hogan regained the championship he did not get a fair rematch for at WM 5. *I think the love triangle of Trips/Angle/Steph is proof of how this would go down today. Exhibit D Hulk Hogan and Ultimate Warrior battled in a popularity contest where both were the respective champions of their divisions. The wwf promoted it as the Ultimate Challenge where the two greatest stars in the galaxy clashed. Ultimate Warrior got the pinfall and somewhat of the upset in a classic. He became a dual champion. Now, these are the top matches and draws of the respective 80's boom. No where is there nonsense like The Goon or Doink the Clown. There was a mature aspect to these storylines that were based on athletes having conflicts about championships. The championships were basically above the wrestlers. I think if the wwe of today can produce this kind of element it would help greatly in making the main events have mainstream appeal again. *I think a good comparison on how this would be done today is the Katie Vick scenario where Kane and Trips champ vs. champ match took place. The stipulation wasn't even clear as it was not noted if the title would be gone or unified. Now, I will take a stab at what were the best elements of the attitude era: Exhibit A The war between wcw and the wwf. In all of the cartoon crap that was spewing during that time this was the thing that got people interested in the product. Bischoff went to war with giving away results and whatnot. Soon, the wwf attacked wcw with the Billionaire Ted skits. The wwf proclaimed they were in a midst of a new generation. In all of this came a realistic storyline that they fell into. Bischoff signed Hall and Nash who were big in the promotion of the "new generation" campaign. Bischoff made it seem like they were invading. Even the court ruling to let the world know that they did not work for the wwf anymore was used to their advantage as it seemed like they were on a secret mission from Vince Mcmahon. When Hogan joined the group and made his heel turn it worked because it made complete sense that the man who made the wwf would turn on wcw. The storyline and characters were well developed and defined. *Today I think the best example of a an attempt of an earthshattering heel turn was Steve Austin turning in Texas at WrestleMania. We know how well Austin's heel turn went the night after. The fans didn't really buy into it at all until a few weeks later. The reason being that Austin had already defeated Rock in the past and why would he join up with Vince Mcmahon to defeat him now(I would have used Austin's fused neck as an excuse). Exhibit B Austin vs. Mcmahon We all know how well thought out this angle was. However, the basis for the storyline was really rooted in Bret Hart's return and his tussles with Austin and America's values. Vince Mcmahon came out as the real boss slowly in all of this. Mcmahon's heat with the audience and Austin's well defined character of being anti-establishment set the tone for the entire company's return to the promise land. The secret here is that it was manufactured, but it was basically true that Vince was the puppeteer and Austin refused to be the puppet by not being a corporate champion. The culmination of this was The Rock defending against Steve Austin at WM 15. The Rock fit the role of corporate champion because of his initial push of doom, but he was improving and placing him in the storyline of Survivor Series '98 made him a star. *Today=Randy Orton and Eric Bischoff///Cena+Eddie and GM Kurt Angle The above have no base in reality and the characters aren't defined. The differences of the two eras imo are that in the 80's the stars made the matches and storylines deliver, while in the 90's the storylines made the stars because they did not have the star power of the previous generation. The trick with the 90's was placing the guys in storylines where it was believable that they belonged in it. Rock being a corporate champ made complete sense. Mankind being used as a tool by Vince Mcmahon also made sense. Austin the anti-hero from the days of winning over the crowd against Bret Hart going up against the corporate values of Vince Mcmahon also made complete sense. Now if the wwf could do the best of both worlds they would be a lot better off. The problem now is they don't make a whole lot of sense and rush things. We all know this, but I think Scaia comes down on the 80's a bit too much without realizing that a lot of the bad of the attitude era is in the current product of doing things "now now now" and putting guys who aren't ready in spots to fail. The story with Randy Orton is actually a good one imo, but the execution has been bad. I also credit them for trying to make it different than what they did with Rock and The Nation. The problem is actually Orton is simply not ready to pull this angle off the way it should be. The Rock of 1998 pulled it off because he was ready for the position. I bet if Rock was given this angle it would work wonders and the creative team would not be getting crapped on. I still don't agree with HHH being a face in all of this as he says. HHH is a much stronger heel that fans would rally against. The problem is how Orton's performance and material have been played out. The biggest thing missing in today's product which was there in both the attitude and 80's boom is the lack of presenting these guys as competitors fighting for championships and the heels sucking up to the administration. Today, we have Triple H actually punking out Bischoff without any repercussions and the faces not having any heroic tendencies for titles or fighting for what the audience wants. In the 80's, Hogan fought for his country, friends, for what was right and to keep the championship in his hands for the Hulkamaniacs. In the 90's, it was Austin in the form going up against the establishment, doing what he wanted when he wanted, screwing up the plans of the establishment by becoming champion and just not giving a **&^. In contrast, Hulk Hogan came out of the facade he made in the 80's by showing himself to be self-serving and an ego-mania as "Hollywood" Hulk Hogan. The characters gained depth and realism in real-time with the world. There was a buzz for when the nWo returned because of the storyline behind it being that they would destroy the wwf in the same fashion they did with wcw. There was a double etendre here. The wwe today lacks this aspect. That is what they implemented in the 90's that was missing in the 80's. The backstage stuff was thrown in with the on-screen stuff to blur things making it a "new work". Can anyone honestly say the wwe has done anything even close to this since the night before WrestleMania 17 with the raw/nitro simulcast? Vince's character was on point that night and Shane was on point. However, the wwe destroyed all of this by becoming a bit too fantasy from then on. Brock got a very good storyline in 2002, but he was not ready for it about the time he won the title when he was catching on after beating Hogan on smackdown. I don't think it's so much reverting back to the 80's so much, but also using the worst aspects of the attitude era(action adventure direction in 1999).

I thought it was just a play on words since there is no longer a wwf. I mean it's kind of safe to say the wwe has not been anywhere close of being the success of the wwf. As for the wwe being in business forever I point to wcw. I know it's kind of hard to believe, but can anyone honestly say in 1996-1999 that Vince Mcmahon would buy the company after it fell so far? Remember the wwf was in some serious trouble in 1997 financially which helped caused the whole Montreal incident. That is not that long ago. Think back and actually put in the mind that wcw was the powerhouse and do a back to the future to see it no longer exists. In other words, the entertainment business is a strange one and it's easier for a monopoly to fall than an industry with a big 3. This is not like it's music and creative process is always changing with different artists. Everything stops with Vince Mcmahon and if he starts to go awry with no one to stop him who knows? This is a long shot, but look how wrestling has changed in the last decade.

There are lies, lies, and then there are statistics(hope I got that cliche right). The wwe might be making some solid money(yeah with stuff like winning a court civil case about Owen Hart*record breaking DVD sales with Ric Flair), but it can not be denied how much interest has fallen from the business. I mean I read some house show attendance records and I honestly believed the numbers were a joke until I read elsewhere it was true. I went to a smackdown tv tapings a few months back in Toronto and saw how half the arena was tarped off. You got to also consider all the fantastic products from smackdown records and whatnot and I can see there is no need to worry as a shareholder What is the current market value for a stock anyways? You also got to consider how much the internet writing landscape has shrunk from the 96 until the present. How about the fact that Vince Mcmahon basically owns everything and doesn't have wcw competing with him for ratings and attendances. Take everything into account compared with the numbers they were doing under different circumstances where they did not have a monopoly to cash in on.

Well, let's hope if ratings continue to drop we can see some REAL changes. Of course, the flipside to that is the wwe getting cancelled. I still don't understand how "net writers" can't see the wwe's current fanbase is the fanbase that started watching wrestling on monday nights in 1995. I mean combine the ratings for raw and nitro then and see it's not too much far off from what it is now. The wwe lost all the damn fanbase that was around in winter 2001. It is that serious how the wwe screwed up the popularity of wrestling(wcw too with its incompetence).

Cena was nice up until Royal Rumble this year. Once I saw those brass rings on his fingers I knew he was going to turn goofy. A problem is that he has been watered down because of UPN. Maybe if he was on raw they would allow him to cut some real beef promos instead of the pre-school nonsense he is doing now. I agree the guy's cheap attempts of getting the crowd in his matches is lame. I don't know why people always complain about Hogan's ringwork. A lot of his stuff in his hey day blows away some of the horrible stuff done by some of the youngsters today. I would watch Hogan/Bundy from SNME in 1987 and 1988 over most of the crap guys like Tyson Tomko or Bradshaw is doing today. Cena should turn heel, but they won't do it until everyone stops caring about Cena. Again, as been mentioned before in other posts the wwe rushed Cena and putting him in a movie already? Isn't he suppose to have a CD coming out as well? This guy may very well burn himself out within a year of turning face. For the wwe's sake he better not have that traditional 15 minutes of fame by also ran rappers which is why he should concentrate on his wrestling skills to have back up.

I think the two most glaring things I've picked up from this thread which really is the bottom line to this JBL championship push is this.....it's a waste of time because he is not getting any credibility and it would have been much better if he was US champion for multiple reasons. I'm sure someone in the company wants to tell Vince Mcmahon this, but they don't want to hear those infamous words "YOU'RE FIRED". Stubborn. Yep, there's that word again. With that said I don't think the guy should lose the belt anytime soon because it will just make the title even more of a joke. The problem is the world is not ready to say the least for this guy being a main eventer much less the friggin champion. I know they are most likely going for the chickenshit heel and that is why he has not pinned anyone, but in this instance I think it's not helping the belt or JBL or anyone watching for that matter. Look at it this way. Honky Tonk Man being WWF Champion instead of IC champion in 1987 and 1988. Yeah, I thought so. It takes a different perspective once it's at that level.

Great points by everyone here. I said in another post that the wwe blew it at WM XX in terms of starting a new era with a new crop of stars and sticking with it. The masses was willing and able to accept this with the way the show was hyped. Within one month everyone realized it as "more of the same" and gave up hope. I know a lot of people come down on people like Meltzer for always being negative on Triple H, but honestly the guy deserves it. He does a little PR with jobbing the belt to Benoit and doing jobs that really did not matter earlier only to get the title back soon enough. HHH is not the only problem as I see UT in the same boat. These two have to do what was mentioned and be a "safeguard" for one the top star gets injured or holds the wwe up for money. I mean what other legitimate reason do they have for being on top? HHH simply wants to break Flair's record and book himself as the greatest of all-time, while UT thinks because he got tremondous hype from returning to the darkside it's 1991-1992 again in terms of being fresh and popular. I know this won't be too popular, but you also have guys like Kurt Angle playing politics when he should be in the same boat because he's too much of a hazard to push for any length of time. As mentioned with Stone Cold Randall, the writing is showing true signs of stale bread. Do they even understand Orton's character anymore? It's the same nonsense they did with Angle in 2001 that did him no favours in getting over as a face. At least from all this stuff we can gather that there are people in the company that must know what the problems are, but are afraid of losing their jobs if they speak up. It will be interesting to see if Vince actually sides with Patterson or his son in-law. Patterson did have some horrible stuff while he was booking, BUT he was also apart of the biggest stuff in the history of the company. He knows about weaknesses and strengths and how to work around it to create a strong match. I mean who in their right mind would have thought Hogan and Warrior would have the match of the year in the wwf in 1990? You saw the disaster the two pulled off in wcw. Hogan and Rock was also very surprising and was Hogan's best match in YEARS. The closest was his starrcade match with Sting and we know how well that went with the exception of his title loss to Goldberg. Vince's stubborn mentality always brings him down, but this time there isn't an Eric Bischoff or Paul Heyman to challenge him to change.

Funny as Ric Flair told Vince this on live television when he just returned in 2002. It's so true too. I think people must be laughing at Vince's hypocrisy with the sick stuff he did with Stephanie and Linda in the last couple of years. Yeah, that sure is quality programming to compete with the likes of the Cosby Show. It makes Married with Children blush.