Promoter

Agree. HBK/Rock could work as well. Angle/Taker has potential, but I still think it is a midcard match to the common fan for a Mania event. Angle is NOT that over with the masses for the way he thinks he is and its not some kind of big money match imo. I agree around Survivor Series we should see more of the seeds being planted. Taker taking the belt off JBL is possible with Angle winning the Rumble. Orton/HHH is already in motion.

I only saw piece of that OTR episode admittedly, but I don't recall anyone repeating Shane as being adopted. The guy looks like a young Vince Mcmahon in features. How is he adopted?

I'm not saying to make the whole card just for LA. I'm saying the wwe is going for two main event matches(if true) that I can bet the mainstream audience will probably spit back in its face. The crowds in LA are known for being "dead crowds" as well. I think the only time they were ever really hot for a Mania was number 7 and look how that show was marketed. I'm not really looking at this from a strict smark viewpoint, but from the viewpoint in what will really sell the best. When I'm using guys like Cena/Eddie/Rock in terms of LA, I am also trying to state that these are the guys the fans will more likely get behind as faces in the arena and on television. Benoit and Jericho could also fit in there, but that is another matter in itself. They might have screwed up Orton already imo, but that could be solved with pitting him against Rock and turning heel(I swear the wwe could be doing a way better job imo building towards Mania 21). Cena is the only traditional Rumble winner goes to Mania to win the belt story they have where I believe the fans would care because he has never been in the main event scene. Orton is possible, but they have given us his title win already and possibly running the feud right now and making it have fumes before even Survivor Series. When I'm using guys like Austin and Hogan, I'm trying to state that if the wwe wants to put two big name stars aainst each other(like the rumoured Taker/Angle match) it would likely garner more interest to have it be these two men instead of putting Angle/Taker in a title match. They can THINK Orton/HHH(which DID have potential, but I think it has been scewed up) and Angle/Taker is the way to go, but thinking and being are two different things.

Okay, the rumours we've heard for Mania have been: Angle/Taker for the wwe title and Orton/HHH for the world title. However, the wwe is in the land of hollywood and in a place that has a large population of ethnic demographics. So, looking at how the wwe can actually create a STRONG Mania card that people could care about they have this as possible scenarios. The Rock who is an obvious draw especially in hollywood. Can anyone come up with the obvious storylines that can be used for this guy and possible match-ups that would truly be WM worthy? John Cena who has the character of a rapper and is a rapper coming out with his own album. LA is a central focus of West Coast rap and can anyone come up with the obvious type of matches and storylines the wwe can use for this guy? Rob Van Damn: See above. Eddie Guerrero is another obvious guy to use because of his appeal for the large demographic he represents. The wwe could use him in obvious storylines related to LA and put him in great match scenarios. Rey Mysterio: See above. Hulk Hogan. Yes, I know about this being unlikely, but we have not got the retirement match from Hogan. His persona is mixed with Hollywood and from a star drawing potential I think they have a chance to milk Hogan's last match. What better place than Hollywood? This brings me to Steve Austin and the obvious relation to the Hogan scenario above. I know about the shortcomings it brings to the other guys who bust tail all year, but I think I can accept sacrificing another boring generic Dudleyz match. There are more things I could break down, but this is just an example. The wwe's mindset is Angle/Taker and Orton/HHH in LOS ANGELES. Yep, this makes sense!

True, Vince will not retire and he has stated so. Can anyone else imagine the Triple H kiss-ass promos that would be done by other wrestlers? I mean, they already got Ric friggin Flair calling him the greatest world champion of all-time recently. I'm sure his big target is Flair's record which if mathematically done should be broken by 2008/9 or so from stuff I've read if the pace of his current title victories are a standard tool to guage. You can bet guys like Austin and Hogan will be hardly mentioned or referred to, while HBK will probably get acknowledged as "the best there is, was, and ever will be" just for kicks. He will glorify how he was the only man to successfully kick Rock's ass all over the world and that is why he had to go to hollywood. Hopefully, I'm wrong, but wrestling history is on my side with how past people in these type of situations take over. Wrestling revisionist history.

I didn't really see much wrong with Angle's opinions although I don't agree with some of them. Angle/Taker is what he's pushing for Mania 21? Why? Maybe he wants to end his winning streak which I concur would not be a good idea. He doesn't need that kind of rub and Taker should keep the streak for Mania trivia purposes(at one point I wanted someone to end it, but not now*Orton legend killer heel persona would have been a possibility). Vince stated that Mania will once again be raw vs. smackdown and I would think Angle would want to face off against someone like Shawn Michaels on raw. Maybe just maybe there is a reason he has not asked for this type of match. Call me crazy, but I think HBK was much better in his prime than Angle ever was. Angle called out Bret, but not Flair or HBK?

I agree that Orton is not really over. I was waiting to see how the wwe's direction would play out and I think "rushed" is the conclusion. Benoit is more over than Orton imo. Remember last week when Orton was in trouble in the match? The fans were chanting "Benoit..Benoit". This week when Benoit was in trouble and Orton was out the fans did not start chanting "Randy...Randy". This may seem insignificant to some, but it is part of the subtle aspects of giving someone the monster push. They want him to be the out and out #1 babyface carrying the show and he simply is not. Jericho and HBK are also more over than him. Hell, it could be argued Kane could give him a run as a face if the wwe turns him. As someone said he gets good(not great) reactions against the heel Evoltuion, but besides that he is just "there". The wwe imo better go with the back-up(if true) of Orton/Cena for Mania 21, but even that doesn't make sense now if both are faces. Why did they have that encounter at SummerSlam?

I tend to believe HHH would be the best in the trinity creatively for the company, but then again how can we really know? He could be another Kevin Nash for all we know in the realm of only knowing how to make HIMSELF look good. What are his real assets? He is the same guy who went on national television in Canada and basically gave no credibility to the undisputed champion before their match at WrestleMania. Creatively, you would think he would find some way to make Jericho seem like a legit champion worthy of his position. As for the business side of things I think Shane is the better choice. I mean isn't he the man behind all the wwe website stuff? If what goes on there are his ideas I can see merchandise and stuff being much more in tune with what fans want then Vince and his ideas like a Eugene t-shirt/dvd.

Who knows where they are heading with this Orton/HHH thing, but if they have another match at Taboo Tuesday I think that is the end of that feud having any chance of reaching WM 21 as a world title main event. I always figured this match was not Mania main event material anyways. You know, Benoit and Jericho seem to be getting some strong reactions. If they are listening to the market they should slow burn Jericho back into the main event scene and do a program with Benoit for Mania and forget this Orton/HHH crap.

You know what's even funnier than the "great transitional champs" picture post? That Randall walked in at Unforgiven(didn't see it) as champion, BUT TRIPLE H's name was on the nameplate. I saw the pic somewhere else that had Triple H draping the strap over his shoulder with "Triple H" on the belt. At least Benoit had his name on the belt

Rebuttal: It was part of the marketing machine to increase his face value with the audience. The bigger story was that Orton beat the champion who defeated Trips for the belt and that HHH could not unseat him. This was the root of the break up of Evolution. Of course, this has been kind of a flop and as someone stated expect Benoit to finally lose to HHH soon ruining the whole big story.

Okay, are you guys in Toronto? I want to pick up some of these deals.

Yep, that is correct. Okay, let me explain. WrestleMania 2000 actually had Austin/Rock as an option for a rematch where both would be face. If anyone remembers Austin and Rock were going toe to toe in popularity that even wwe acknowledged this in a poll on their website asking fans who was more popular. The wwe was also teaming Rock and Austin up as a tag team during the fall. All anyone had to do was watch WM 15 to see both men had strong a strong fanbase. Now, the wwe had set up the triple threat with Rock/Austin/Triple H for Survivor Series. The wwe could have still used the "vehicular homicide" angle and have Rock go over Triple H for the title. Now remember the month before I believe Triple H defeated Austin because of the sledgehammer miscalculation. Okay, you run Triple H to win the 2000 Rumble. They could still do the Foley program and end up with the fatal fourway. The Rock can go over again at Mania by a hair(although I would use Rock/Trips match for Mania instead). This would prompt Rock to get Linda to put someone by his side. Remember, Austin was out of action for about 5 months ago with questions on someone setting him up in the car incident. Triple H playing mind games and being the cerebral assassin gets into the mind of the rattlesnake and the finish of the match has Austin TURN on Rock. Triple H regains the title at Backlash and runs with the belt. We do not see Austin on raw or smackdown until he is ready to return. It is kind of like a cliff-hanger. So, his return is highly anticipated because fans would want to know WHY Austin did what he did. The Rock is actually framed by Triple H, but Austin can't see that and neither can the fans. I'm going off the belief that fans are generally more loyal to Austin than The Rock(as evident with what really happened since Austin's fans refused to boo him at first). In the meantime, Triple H is tied up with Kurt Angle and loses his title and wife. That would help the love triangle angle. Survivor Series 2001 or Rumble 2001 Austin returns after one year and automatically gets the title shot because he was #1 contender at the event without ever legitimately losing the spot. Austin goes over Angle. Austin carries the strap into WM 17 against The Rock who has been framed. It is brought up why he turned on him the year previously and cost him the strap. The match goes down as it did, but this time Mcmahon now helps Austin. The next night on raw, Austin does his heel turn speech and proclaims that while he sat at home he saw Rock take over the company and saw that his fans were now Rock's fans. That Rock was getting movie deals and so on, while he was getting surgery and in pain. That he teamed up with Mcmahon to secure himself and his legacy and to ensure the banishment of The Rock(who gets fired after attacking Vince Mcmahon on raw). It was all a calculated plot motivated through jealousy of The Rock and Austin feeling his hey day coming to an end joined up with Vince Mcmahon to keep his position as #1. This sets up Triple H in the same scenario where he was not in the know of this plan and he turns complete face instead of tweener which he was playing. Remember, I would have had Trips lose the title to Angle and also lose his wife. Probably would have blown that feud off with Trips going over at Rumble and moving onto Undertaker at WM 17 in a tweener role as fans would have a hard time trusting Trips as a face at first. Austin's heel turn would completely turn Trips. So, now you have Austin's full blown heel turn happen instead of it coming out of nowhere(although it wasn't, but that's another topic). You have a big face in Triple H instead of nobody on his level which happened in 2001. Of course, maybe Trips still would have hurt himself, but the two man power trip match against the Canadian Chrisses wouldn't have happened.

Man, this thing smells fishy. Didn't Vince Mcmahon tell Roddy Piper to get into fights at bars to get arrested to up his heel persona? I bet this is the same damn thing. This is a new heel character the wwe is creating here. Then again....this is the same creative staff that can't find its way out of a wet paper bag and I'm giving them too much credit.

Don't you remember? He moved on to the older and more wrinkled Linda Mcmahon Come to think of it what the hell did they do to Bischoff? Did Vince fantasize at one time that Bischoff would even steal the Mcmahon females from him during the monday night war?

A few things to comment on here. Benoit could cut good promos, but it's the old school style promos and the wwe just did not want to push him that way. The sit down interviews. The backstage pretaped interviews Benoit comes off very good. Why they don't do more of that is beyond me. Maybe someone is afraid or something. Orton is okay on promos, but as someone stated for his push he is poor. Orton is being pushed as the future EVOLUTION of the sport. Let that sink in. Goldberg's wwe situation is strange. Remember it was "reported" that Rock was the man who convinced Goldberg to have talks with the company. The Rock was the "in", so if this situation couldn't be rectified I believe they had to start with The Rock for his intro. Personally, I believe the wwe should have just made Goldberg appear in the Rock/Austin match at WM 19 and have one helluva WM moment. I also don't think Goldberg was really rushed to the title either. HBK in 2002 was a rush to the title. The problem with Goldberg was that the wwe could not have him plow through the roster because of the uncertainty of his loyalty. What would have happened if he went through everyone including Lesnar and left at Mania 20. The whole roster would look weak and the best guy would be gone. It was a no win situation for Goldberg and Vince and that is why I believe Goldberg never did get the vibe of truly going over guys like Triple H. AlwaysPissedOff, I agree somewhat, but I was categorizing the matches. Austin/Rock was the main event, so I compared it to Hogan/Austin. I felt it would be unfair to compare Jericho/Regal's I-C title match to Steamboat/Savage, so I used Benoit/Angle which could have been seen as I-C level. Austin/Rock was a great match, but I think the true hook was the Austin turn. Steamboat/Savage was technically better, but Austin/Rock gives it a run for the money because of the storytelling. Statement: Steve Austin turned heel at the wrong time(making it kind of a flop) and maybe it should have happened at Backlash 2000. I will give my reasons why later.

There was also the 1st NFL game of the season, as well as the new season of Trump's "Apprentice" starting (not sure how much of an effect that show had, but it did pretty good ratings-wise last season). SD also didn't air here in Philly yet. That is still a low number. Sometimes I feel that the wwe gets too many excuses at times(sometimes its warranted) because the wwe is the only game in town. Why were ratings higher when they had an alternative in wcw.

Just to add to the Invasion topic I remember someone having a column that would have worked. You know when Flair came on board? The guy stated that Flair could have been the man to bring back the wcw with the likes of the nWo. The wwe even messed that up. The nWo came in February and Flair fought Vince at the Royal Rumble. Vince got the big guns eventually and they could have still pulled it off, but the better choice would have to sign them to begin with. I wasn't saying it was not believable for Bischoff to beat Vince, but that Vince in his infinite wisdom would use kayfabe reasoning to not job to Bischoff(that is another botched "match" in terms of Invasion). Spike jobbed to Lita? This creative staff is smoking some of that weed Rock was talking about a few weeks back.

Once I see the ratings getting over the 4.0 mark consistently or drop below 3.0 consistently then I'll care. These net writers are silly because the ratings have been going up and down for years within the 3.0-4.0 range. This was the ratings for nitro when they were kicking the wwe's ass.

You mean you think Vince would allow himself to get his ass kicked by Eric Bischoff? This same Vince Mcmahon that for some odd reason went toe to toe with "Stone Cold" Steve Austin(the toughest s.o.b.), Hulk Hogan(the man who defeated immortal legends such as Andre the Giant), and Undertaker(who is still dominating). The same man who got his job back from Ric Flair on live television? I think that might have been asking too much of the boss don't you think?

Rebuttal: Although critically acclaimed I would not call this event the pinnacle of North American wrestling. I would say it is the pinnacle of the Attitude Era and possibly the event that closed the era. My choice for the pinnacle of North American wrestling is WrestleMania III. Here is why: Hulk Hogan vs. Andre the Giant was bigger than Rock/Austin 2. The big aura of the match can be closely matched, but Hogan/Andre the Giant is just that much bigger. It was somewhat of the passing of the torch, but not really. However, I can see how the revisionist history by the company can view it that way. Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat and Randy "Macho Man" Savage put on a clinic that WM 17 could not pull off. The height of the I-C title was much greater than at WM 17 where it was the opening match. The best choice to compete with this match technically is Angle/Benoit and it's not even close. The Undertaker/HHH was special for the reason that both were dominate heading into this Mania. It was a better match than say Piper/Adonis(comparable in terms of draw at the time), but Piper/Adonis had way more emotional attachment by the crowd. Vince/Shane also fall into this category for a sports entertainment segment. The Hart Foundation were wwf tag team champion at the event and were in a heated feud with The British Bulldogs which have now become legendary. Add in Tito Santana and Danny Davis as a sidebar(which add to the storyline) and you got a stronger choice for the pinnacle of tag team wrestling in North America than at WM 17 where I believe the six man is pretty weak. Hillbilly Jim/Midgets vs. Bundy/midgets are grouped into here along with the gimmick battle royal. There are better built up undercard matches at WM III such as Hercules vs. Billy Jack Haynes. This is where it gets fuzzy though. Test/Eddie is perhaps a stronger match. The tag team situation with Orton/Muraco vs. Can-Am Connection to open the show wasn't bad. WM 17 has WM III beat for gimmick match though with the TLC match. Then you got to consider the crowds. WM III has it beat regardless of the controversy Meltzer states about the record. You have to also take into consideration where the company went after the event. The wwf became bigger because the event was all over the media such as Entertainment Tonight and George Michael's Sports Machine. I think WM III was the pinnacle of pro wrestling in North America. For years Hogan lived off this event and so did the wwf. The same can't be said of WM 17 where things have all gone downhill since. I know it's two different eras and times were different, but all things being equal WM III is much more reknown as THE EVENT. As for WM X it is over-rated by the net, but it has a strong storyline element in the "final four" March Madness concept with Owen/Bret and Yoko/Luger with the conclusion ending up with Yoko/Bret. Add in the ladder match as well. It has the tenth anniversary aura to it. At least this event had Roddy Piper in the main event to play off the tenth anniversary. The rest of the card is pure trash though. They did the best they could do with what they had back then and I think that's why some look so fondly back on it when you take into account the timeframe.

The wwe blew its chance long time ago with PROPERLY using Bischoff. What happened to Shane's warnings to his dad about hiring Eric Bischoff. Bischoff's potential has been squandered. The former arch rival of the wwf is nothing more than a generic gm now. Really sad, but did anyone really believe Vince would make him into an elite part of his company in storylines?

Okay, who is the photo shop specialist around here. This is one funny joke!

Who is Flair stealing heat from? If anything, Batista has benefited from hanging around with Flair/Evo, and I don't see anyone else being hurt by Flair. Flair being Flair is taking away heat. Not purposely mind you, but he is. Flair doing jobs is worthless now. I'm not saying to have Flair completely disappear from the tv screen, but if they want Evolution to really evolve Flair will have to bow out as the past. Everyone knows this is just a cheap version of the 4 Horsemen. It's similar to Hulk Hogan. He appears and gets the biggest pops out of anyone, but he doesn't actually help anything. The same with The Rock at the moment, but at least he is still young and can return anytime soon. Vince Mcmahon took a hint by not taking up all the heat of his General Managers. He plays the role much better than Bischoff or Long, but he stays out of their way. How about those wooos we always hear? It's like Austin during his co-gm days and the crowd chanting what. It's just a distraction for what really needs to be focused on. If the company was doing fine in creating and multiplying their new talent then no problem, but they are having problems in getting the new crop over.

Ummm, not to burst any bubbles here, but the fanatic series presentation for October I believe is about Eugene. Look for a DVD on Eugene. I don't know how true this rumour is, but...damn if I wasn't on the floor laughing.