Promoter

I think Sable had the delusion that many wwe divas have and that is they can parlay their stay in the wwe into an acting career I bet that's why she came back and did the lesbo angle that she forbade the first time. Vince got the last laugh once yet again. Maybe Brock told her to get fired somehow since he seems to want to dis-associate himself from wwe.

This is what I have concluded with last night's raw. Orton winning just doesn't seem plausible how it's been done. Of course, this could be by design and "shock" us with a win.

Too true. Why is Holly always bitching and moaning? Hasn't he caused enough damage this year? Let's see..... Main eventing for smackdown at the Royal Rumble starting the trend of midcarders 4 life getting into the wwe title scope. Was an excuse for Brock Lesnar complaining about travelling to Africa. Weeks later he sent the man out of the sport. Injured Matt Capotelli(sp?) and caused Jackie to get the crusiwerweight title. Complained with Billy Gunn about the younger and newer guys getting a push over him. Supposedly bitched out Vince Mcmahon. Maybe this is the wwe's way of trying to make him quit

I know I see some problems with the smackdown run going into Mania. I have a problem with Angle heading into Mania with the belt. He has done this the last two years and lost the title. Who wants to see the hat trick of that? Angle is not that over to overlook this. I think if he was at Rock levels of popularity it might be possible, but something fresh needs to happen for the smackdown main event regarding Angle if he is to be involved. No Way Out is in Pittsburgh and it's possible Angle may be given the strap there. The only twist with Angle for the sd main event would be him entering in as challenger and winning. Let's not forget the health issue either. Personally, I think the wwe should turn either Cena or Eddie heel and do Eddie/Cena for the strap in Los Angeles. The demographics in the audience would eat it up. Then do something fresh with Angle with a raw vs. smackdown match with Shawn Michaels. BTW, Cena is no where close to Hogan in terms of workrate, at least the 1984-1988 version. Hogan actually made his challengers look like they had a chance of beating him. His mic work was good to great in an era when that wasn't a major issue in getting a wrestler over. Plus, he didn't make poo poo jokes even at his most super hero like best I do have concerns with Cena's character losing the edge it had just last winter. He has been coasting ever since WM XX imo and been turned to PC friendly.

I think RRR is simply just referring to the guys who suck in the ring and are just learning. They aren't out there doing 45 minute matches(help us all if the wwe gives them 45 minutes on sunday and cut back on Eddie/Angle which from Angle's rant on Byte This could be interpreted that way), but 10 minute matches. I have not seen guys like Jindrak going that long because he would put people to tears. Of course, the argument is if they don't get the chance how could they improve. My answer to that is what the hell is OVW and the other independent circuits for then? I think Velocity and Heat get low ratings for a reason wit thse dull and generic matches for the most part with the once in a blue moon solid confrontations.

RRR, I agree completely mang! That is why I have issues with the brand extension's excuse of giving people opportunity. Yeah, who really wants to see guys green as hell trying to improve their craft. The wwe should just be the best of the best, but too bad they got to fill up time and waste OUR time with the crap like the Diva search(what happened with giving wretlers time to shine). That's another topic though.

Okay, with the convo of Trips/Orton headling WM for the raw side, what could they possibly do for smackdown. I have to wonder about those rumours that Vince sees JBL as a long term champion. Does that mean JBL holds the title to Mania as well and go up against Cena? I can see them doing this with how the two characters are. It is the perfect foil, but that match will be brutal imo. JBL isn't exactly that appealing to headline Mania either. Of course, there is Angle/Cena or Cena/Guerrero.

The stuff these guys put their bodies through makes me angry when people knock them off as just "fakes". Angle actually stated this in another interview up here with another radio station that the U.S. fans don't have the same kind of respect for the sport as international fans because most in the US just dismiss the whole thing as fake. I understand his concern, but I think his boss had a lot to play in that attitude with the insulting storylines. I guess it's a tough spot as they don't get respected from entertainment or sport.

The Bashams did have the Demolition gimmick, but Vince made it S&M related. I remember reading on the net that Demolition if used today would be kind of S&M looking. Lo and behold a few months later I see Shaniqua added to the Bashams. Warrior does look horrible. I guess Jesse Ventura was right all those years saying how his face paint hid his ugly face

I figured when I heard the rumours of this title last winter it was all a marketing tool for Brock Lesnar "greatest wwe champion of them all" gimmick to coincide with the champ vs. champ rumours for WM XX. I wondered what happened to the release plans since I was seeing the Hart DVD(which is now being rumoured for 2005)being released for Christmas(which is now rumoured to be the 4 horsemen release timeframe and let the Flair/Hart controversy continue .

What potshots? All he said that in an amateur wrestling match he would squash HHH in 2 minutes.. That's actually more of a compliment, as he said it in a manner that "HHH can squash me in the WWE, but put him on a mat with me and I'll squash him in 2 minutes" Which is true, and I'm sure HHH would agree. There is an interview that I'm sure is in the archives of the LAW where Angle takes potshots at Triple H for how much airtime he gets on raw. Angle saying what he said in this interview undermines Triple H's worth in wwe world. Why does he say this only about Triple H about squashing him in 2 minutes. He would do that with 99% of the roster, but yet he called out Triple H. I just think Angle does it on purpose. Angle wants to come out of this thing as a legend in the breath of a Flair or Hart(which may explain why he challenged him). Triple H is his threat to this goal being the top heel(recent rumours Angle wants to be smackdown's Triple H). If anything it's something for net fans to create another HHH conspiracy .

Does Angle have some kind of beef with Triple H? He always takes potshots at the guy in legit media interviews. I remember comments about Triple H hogging the spotlight on raw and about how much Triple H can fans take. Triple H made comments on air about Angle being a paper champion in 2003.

If it is $25 and this is the list the wwe might release it one by one I suppose. I 've also seen rumours that there is another bloodbath DVD being released about ladder matches. The wwe could very well have this catalogued in this manner since they had to get things in order for the WWE 24/7 channel.

This sounds and looks pretty damn expensive Maybe that's the whole point as Vince Mcmahon wouldn't want the history out in the public selling like the Flair dvd. You know it would hurt his revisionist history

Bruno's comments to Vince in the meeting with Vince staying silent says it all. Bruno called him on the bullshit. It's sad someone of Ric Flair's stature kisses Vinnie's tail so much. I think Bret Hart is in the same vien as Sammartino.

I think what it all boils down to his heat and momentumn. When the wrestling gets hot they get away with a lot of crap that they would alienate fans with when they are not doing so well. The wwe also needs to know their market. From some stuff I've read it seems like the wwe's main audience is growing in age. This person who wrote this article is thinking like Vince Russo 1999 and last I checked that was in the last millennium. Let's see here. When Vince Mcmahon took over the company with the expansion it's said that the audience that was attracted to the product was older males who were into the realism(or what was realistic). Sort of a PT Barnum style. So, Vince took that product and slowly transformed it into sports entertainment with slicker storylines and bigger/better stars. By 1988-89 Vince became more Walt Disney with the product to attract kids with ice cream bars and action figures all over. Vince kept to that script, but he did not realize that those same kids were now teenagers or had grown into young adults. In late '95 it was said that the wwe would become more adult oriented with storylines and even released the raw magazine(for the smart fan). Remember the HBK storyline where he came back too soon from head injuries in a match with Owen Hart? The wwe was just on the brink of getting with the 90's and "keepin it real". However, Eric Bischoff and the nWo took it to a new level by blurring reality/fiction with the hostile takeover. The wrestling storylines became more realistic, believable, and less insulting which brought back the fans who were turned off from the cartoon characters like The Goon and insulting storylines like the Dungeon of Doom/Giant falling off Cobo Arena. The wwe and wcw started to get with pop culture with gang warz playing off the east coast/west coast hip hop rivalry being played up in the media. The "Me Against the World" attitude started to takeover in the wrestling business with the nWo and "Stone Cold" Steve Austin and the casual/masses hooked onto the product. It captivated the audience regardless of the product's quality. That's the difference back then and now. Now, the wwe has lost the some fans just like they lost the fans that hooked onto the product in the 80's in the early 90's because of doing the same crap. An example this week was the midget Undertaker skit. That is not entertaining anymore. It was during the days of attitude/wcw/nwo. The reason the wwe is not mainstream is that the overall atmosphere doesn't have anything to grab the masses because it isn't hooking onto what is hot in pop culture. It has nothing to do with long ironman matches(really look at the ratings and see it wasn't that much of a difference from previous weeks as someone said the wwe has its core fanbase watching regardless of anything) or short Diva search segments because if the wwe had at least one or two powerful stars like Austin and Rock the fans would follow. The wwe needs someone like a John Cena to take off since he has the potential to have that appeal for the youth like Austin and Hogan did before him with the type of character he has. Orton on raw could also be groomed as an old school type generation star for the new millennium. The thing is if the wwe just simply gets a couple of hot stars for the two brands it's kind of irrelevant what type of product it is unfortunately as we saw 1999 was a terrible year, but they made some serious ratings(although the ppv numbers weren't all that great in comparison). When I also think about it 1999 was a year that the wwe did a lot of reversal of what brought them back to the dance with the outrageous and over the top antics which only get them the kind of flavour of the month popularity. The wwe and wcw/nwo got back with "shoot" and realistic storylines, but ended going back to action adventure stuff that slowly turned away fans a couple of years later. The reason the popularity sustained because the wwe had strong stars into 2001 and by 2002 the wwe was grasping for straws bringing back the nWo and trying to shove guys like Brock Lesnar down people's throats. That was the chance to have a rebirth of some sort, but the wwe went again with the action adventure crap like Rock being killed in a semi and Jericho being a lap dog of a champion. The wwe has re-started and promised new eras since then, but have disappointed fans. The casual fans are out there as we see the increase in ratings like the night of the draft lottery. The wwe just has to win back the general audience's trust and I don't think having champs like JBL will do it. There are no short cuts to bring the wwe back to the promise land.

wildpegasus, come on you know HBK is going to have to be pitted against Kane upon his return for revenge. Throw that out the window. I do agree that they can re-visit the rivalry sometime down the line though. They won't do Benoit/Jericho at WM for the world title. I think if they wanted to do face vs. face between these two guys it would have happened right here in Toronto. The match would have serious heat and the storyline can be multi-layered, but for some stupid reason they didn't do it. They aren't going to do face vs. face between Jericho/Benoit for Mania excluding unforeseen circumstances. That has only happened 3 times at Mania and that was Hogan/Warrior(which neither man are at that level of face popularity), Hart/HBK(who were the top two talents in the wwf at the time, and Rock/Austin which needs no explanation. I could see Edge and Batista as contenders in the next few months, but what happens after that for Mania? Twiztedmind you are correct with the variables. However, don't you think if the wwe plans on putting the title on Orton that the next obvious guy to take the belt off him would be Triple H who has not held the title since WM XX? I think Trips losing a step in terms of kayfabe(losing to Shelton*btw Orton didn't* and not regaining the belt off Benoit who beat him which he always does) and Orton possibly winning the title isn't by accident. If Orton bombs as champ, I still think Trips may have things slated for his title win for WM 21. Okay, what other options would they have with HHH dethroning a champion at WM 21? Benoit holding the title for a year is a good choice since the rematches never had him go over decisively on Trips. Orton is another choice. Jericho is another choice, but I think they would be hesitant to go that route again. It might have been Edge, but the guy has bombed in his return as a face(there's that variable you talked about). Hell no, with Shawn Michaels that's for sure. I think the choices are pretty slim actually.

They can break up the 6 months with 3 months having Orton remaining heel and in the group and the other half turn him face by getting kicked out of Evolution(face off against Batista/Flair/new Evolution member perhaps). The last month you got the build for Orton heading into WM 21 against Triple H. The three months have Orton up against faces Benoit/Jericho/HBK and then the other 3 months against Flair/Batista/maybe heel turned Edge. The problem here is that WE know what the possible plan is so of course it may be boring now. Suppose we didn't find out?

Um, ok. I think you missed my point - that being that when you have two guys ... and one is top tier and you want the other one to get to that point ... it's not always best to have the mid-carder beat the main eventer on the first try. This has nothing to do with contracts or what was on the line and what match was more important. Benoit has to beat Orton every single night to stay champion. Orton only has to beat Benoit once to win it. So have Benoit beat Orton. Then have him make a mistake somewhere along the way, with Orton taking the belt. That's a better plan than just throwing the belt on Randy with 3 weeks buildup. 'Supposedly' is the key word here. Anything can happen between August 6, 2004 and WrestleMania XXI. At this point last year, Bret Hart was 'supposedly' going to be at WrestleMania XX - a card which was to 'supposedly' feature a unification match pitting the WWE Champ against the World Champ. Or so the Internet said. If Triple H / Orton is a long term plan - why put the belt on Orton now? And what sense is there in having Orton defend the belt at WrestleMania as a face? Wouldn't it be better for him to challenge a heel Triple H? There are too many questions surrounding this whole thing now to put in stone that Orton is winning at Summer Slam or that it will be Triple H / Orton at Mania. I didn't miss your point and I agree with you for the most part. I think you missed my point WHY they might have Orton go over Benoit in the first try. Benoit repeatedly beating Orton until he finally gets the title weakens the story of Orton being another Evolution member showing up Triple H's leadership role as being the guy who gets the job done. It goes back to "not dropping the ball". I also understand that the key word is "supposedly", but we are dealing with Triple H who is basically management. The champ vs. champ scenario was brought up around Survivor Series. Obviously, the behind the scenes problems with Goldberg and the wwe prevented them going ahead with Lesnar/Goldberg(not counting Lesnar's passion or lack thereof). It still ended up with Triple H in the main event. I have already stated in another thread why they might think this is a good idea. I ask this. What would be the direction for Chris Benoit as champion then? Champ vs. Champ against Edge if he retains the title? Highly unlikely.

I guess they got a prejudice against cold weather and aren't too much in the white Christmas feel I suppose

I don't think having Hogan job his title at this particular time was a good move. Hogan was still very hot and the wwf was still doing its takeover with the expansion. I would have also kept the NFL/WWF battle royal because it garnered interest where it showed the wwf wrestlers were real athletes where athletes from another profession couldn't compete at their sport. It was a good marketing move by Vince Mcmahon.

Okay, I have a question. Does anyone else remember Undertaker's first name was actually KANE? I swear I use to hear and see the graphic Kane The Undertaker, but since it was the jobber Superstar matches back then I taped over those matches. It didn't last long, but I'm sure his name was Kane. I even heard that Undertaker used the Kane name as something of a tribute to his dead brother. Could the angle been in the works from the start? I also thought Ted Dibase actually said Kane the Undertaker at Survivor Seris, but the CHV version he does not say Kane. Wasn't that edited out?

It's funny as I've read that Triple H actually offered himself up for the sacrifice thinking he would get a push later on. Maybe that was the deal with him winning the '96 KOR. That is usually how it goes. Vince squashes you or make you a lose a match before getting the big push(which ties right back into Orton winning the strap soon after jobbing twice to Edge). We know what happened with KOR '96 and he probably has a grudge since. So, I guess we should blame Mr. Warrior for the monster we have now.

Somethng's got to give with this double ppv a month schedule. It might have a little intrigue in the beginning, but we all know how Vince runs things into the ground. I can only think about the expansion of smackdown on UPN because he saw the monster ratings on raw. Not within a year's time BOTH ratings dropped and haven't recovered since. Vince wants to kill his own creation Next thing you know he hires back Chyna and X-Pac and makes them tag team champions.

HHH won that match. Damn, I thought that was his "paying dues" match? He didn't even do the job for that? Strange when you consider Vince loved his pig farmer characters. I remember Vince shoving those damn guys in the opening of raw every week until someone put some sense into his head that people would just rather watch a nitro interview with main eventers talking.