Promoter

Guys, I remember in 1992 the newspapers in Toronto stated Bret threatened Vince about going to wcw after headlining SummerSlam and yes he did main event the show. Warrior and Savage took a backseat. The show was already taped by the time it aired in North America. Warrior was shaky with management which is why he didn't get the title at Slam and it led to him walking out at Survivor Series. I don't know what was up with Savage though. I agree Savage/Bret should have been a no brainer at WM. They did Bret/Yoko too soon. IMO, the booking just sucked in that time frame. If Vince had Bret as his chosen star why not build him properly. The signs were there. He was IC champ beating Mr. Perfect who at the time was promoted as one of the greatest IC Champs and he did have a better 2nd reign. Bret went over him at SummerSlam and just listen to the MSG crowd after his win and during it chanting "Let's Go Bret". You know what they say about MSG being the test market for future trends and so on. The only reason he lost the title in the first place was because of illness and the wwf wanting the ic title on the RR show in 1992. He PINNED Piper who was UNDEFEATED for the I-C title. Bret even said Savage was the guy he had to knock the door down on as terms of smaller guys leading the way with the title in WM 12 promos. Savage went over Flair at WM 8. Savage/Bret should have been the title match. Bret should have gone over Flair in the finals of the RR. That way you have Bret going over those two legendary guys and given credibility. Anyone see the Savage/Hart SNME match? Classic. If they did anything like that it would have been one of the greatest title matches in history, but imo Savage wasn't the same. Now, if Hogan only actually agreed to facing Bret at SummerSlam and passing the torch who knows how things may have turned out for his drawing power.

Hulk Hogan, Shawn Michaels, Randy Savage, Jake The Snake, British Bulldog, Roddy Piper, Million Dollar Man, Undertaker, Kerry Von Erich, Valentine! Some of the biggest names of all-time intertwined with some of his bigger feuds of all-time. My fave match too.

Ric Flair's retirement...another chance to expose Hulk Hogan for the selfish egomaniac that he is. Way to go, Bruiser. I guess this depends on who you talk to. Bischoff would say Flair hogged the title in the early 90's before Hogan jumped ship. Scott Steiner and Foley the same thing. When it comes to Hogan and Flair and championships I think they deserved it more than not. Their last title wins are suspect though, but was probably done out of respect for what they made the championships to mean.

I say it's a 6 and a half. My reason being that it has been hit and miss. When they did the inter-brand matches at WM XX it gave the illusion of making the event seem bigger than it was. The problem is they don't have enough talent to go around fully in terms of identifiable stars for the masses. It was supposedly to create new stars and in some ways it has spread the spotlight, but the main guys are still HBK, HHH, UT. Orton and Cena would have gone to the main event without the brand extension. Edge however benefits from the brand extension as it allowed the wwe to give him a run with the title whereas without it I doubt Edge would have feuded with Cena and Taker the way he has. It is more beneficial to have two brands. The biggest success of the split has been its impact on WM and the RR. The wwe can play around with the predictability factor unlike pre-brand era where it was obvious a lot of times who would win. It has also helped somewhat with the placing of the title matches at Mania. I think the fans see it as two different shows. The placing of the titles and the drafts have helped in that regard. I think the brand thing is here to stay as long as Vince is running it. I actually think they need it. The philosophy of ecw=aaa wrestling, smackdown=American League(junior circuit), and raw=national league(senior circuit) is a good one.

I agree about the Jericho thing. The casual fan could care less about that. I really thought Austin or Rock should have got the undisputed title. It would have meant more with all the nitro/raw war. Jericho winning it wasn't no big deal especially how they booked him with the title. Steph's manservant being one incident.

I agree. Hogan started freaking WrestleMania for crying out loud.

That was about ROCK finally getting a win at Mania against Austin. Not the same thing exactly. However, thinking about it now maybe he should leave it be. That is a good end to his career, but EVERYONE is forgetting the Survivor Series send off Austin got.

Yeah, he was all for him. I don't know about now, after Kennedy has had so many setbacks, injuries, people getting injured against hm, fucking up the big push thy were gonna give him as Vince's son, taking shit about steriods on tv, then failing drug tests and getting suspended. And with Kennedy's track record of injuries, I don't think Austin would want to get in there with him, being nearly crippled and all. What the hell? All that happened with Kennedy? I've been off the net the whole year. Kennedy as Vince's son did seem like the way they were going, although the HHH thing at the end was pretty funny for a smark.

I can't disagree with what you're saying. However, the thing with Hogan is this. A LOT of the younger guys like Big Show and Cena became fans because of Hogan. I see guys like that respecting Hogan and what he did. The guys like Bret Hart and so on are no longer apart of the dressing room, but you are right. I can't see Triple H working with Vince on a send off to top Flair's. Then again, I could be wrong as I didn't think HHH would drop the title to Hogan a month after winning it at Mania to Hogan at Backlash.

Cena/Austin is what I was thinking too. You know I find it funny how Austin is getting a pass on passing the torch, but Hogan was getting ripped for it. At least he tried with Warrior and I know what Hogan CLAIMED years later about showing him up at the end of the match, but I don't buy that one bit. Hogan seemed genuinely upset imo on the cart leaving Mania that his time had passed. The Rock passed the torch to Brock Lesnar. In some ways, Flair passed the torch to HBK in terms of saying he surpassed him(he said so at the HOF) and I see why HBK had the last match with Flair. I still think Hogan's going to give Vince a ring for next year for you know what. You know his ego already. I don't think UT is EVER going to lose at Mania and that's fine. I was also thinking HBK/Taker. The story is already there. He ended Flair's career at WM 24 and looks to end the streak at 25.

Funny you say that, because during that final segment for a second i thought to myself "now Hogan is gonna come back just so he can have a retirement farewell speech and try to top this one" Hey, he does owe HBK a job. Show would be the one he gives the job, after dominating the match and no selling most of Show's offense. Man, I thought the SAME THING. If Hogan saw that he must have got egotistical by saying HE deserved that send off since he built the company. Flair got the greatest send off ever. I still can't believe this. Watching Flair all these years and even being one of the guys saying he should retire. Wrestling will never feel the same again UNLESS he pulls a Foley I don't think HBK against Hogan would be right. Maybe against Cena or even Edge.

Has WWE handled his impending retirement properly? I will say this. From the HOF ceremony to WM 24's match against the man many proclaimed as the new Flair after WM X to the farewell on RAW, the wwe gave Flair the best send off I have seen ever. I mean I thought only Hogan would recieve this type of sendoff. I wonder if Austin is gonna retire in Texas next year? He would eclipse it MAYBE. I mean seeing all those old school guys tonight on RAW won't be possible with Austin in terms of emotions.

Me too. Jericho and so on looked like they liked the goofing Rock did. I'm sure Santino loved being on the other end of "IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT YOUR NAME IS!". Hey "Dwayne" has done that line against some of the greatest of all-time. At least he didn't get the Juventud treatment

Me too. Jericho and so on looked like they liked the goofing Rock did.

Yeah, but isnt Flair's "belt" on smackdown?

Damn, I haven't been on this forum in over a year. With the changes around here I was surprised my account was still active and happy it was too. I missed last year's Mania and pretty much all of the last year. What was Austin's original idea. I actually think Vince forcing Flair's retirement is a good angle. Of course it gives them an out that I hope they won't use. You know, Vince always going back on his word or some crap. I think they have handled Flair's retirement angle well tying in the HOF. It's a great way to end things. I expect the match to be dramatic. Remember how Flair did that angle with Bischoff in wcw(Fire me I'm already fired). Put HBK in there and it should be good. Historically, it makes better sense for HBK to end the career with all the comparisons he got in the 90's. HHH is much more manufactured as some "Flair" apparent and no I'm not hating on HHH, but HBK has that finesse like Flair.

Maybe they'll save him for WM 25. They are going to need a big name for the silver anniversary. MAYBE Flair will go in that year. I think Macho and Flair are really the only two big names of the 80's left that the masses/general public may pay attention to. Bruno may make some noise with older fans though and I mean the ones who were apart of the 80's boom. Everyone from then knows the bad blood between Bruno and Vince. I think they included other organizations because eventually they'll just run out of people that actually deserve to get in. Vince putting himself in the HOF will just bring a bunch of critics, but maybe again for the silver anniversary he'll put himself in. I think he'll be able to justify it himself somewhat for that year.

Doing well(it's true he is) and being seen by hollywood as the next Stallone and Arnold are two different things imo in terms of box office. However, I agree he could still do it. I mean Will Smith is a good example because who would have thought Fresh Prince would become such a good actor from that comedy series. I just find hollywood eats and spits people out quicker than Vince Mcmahon does.

You do know this is the wwe we are talking about right? I also don't BUY Taker being a full time champion post Mania either. The guy is a part timer. I really don't see the point of Taker in a title match with the streak being hyped without them even considering trying to make history with UT's first Mania loss. I bypass Batista right now because he just doesn't deserve that kind of accolade. UT is always a division killer as champion and doesn't draw. They just have him in the main event for the obvious draw and comparisons of undefeated streaks in Michigan Mania shows imo. EVERYBODY is Cena's job bitch, so I don't see how that makes a difference of whether or not they want to push Edge(I'm saying this and I WAS AGAINST EDGE as champ last year at all and was roasted on here for it). I highly doubt HBK is winning at Mania and that's HBK who doesn't lay down for anybody. If the wwe had the balls to turn AUSTIN HEEL IN TEXAS in front of 70,000 people for shock value I wouldn't pass them to do something like Edge cashing in on the night either. As for the WM IX booking with Hogan the WWE MARKETED THAT FINISH as one of the top 5 in Mania history, so what does that say about their booking philosophy? I'm just bringing it up as a POSSIBILITY! I actually doubt Kennedy is winning as well for the simple reason that there is no need for him to do that to get a title shot on smackdown and I don't see them moving him to RAW. Edge winning the first one was just following WM history of him always being the guy to grab the brass ring in ladder matches at Mania. RVD won for the reason of jumpstarting ecw at One Night Stand. If Orton is in the MITB I see him and Edge winning for the simple reason of keeping the two together without breaking them up and having the tension there until HHH comes back.

I like the MITB concept, but I don't think the wwe initially created this to fill up the card with wrestlers. I think the wwe wanted a way to continue doing laddder matches at WM. I mean after that ladder match at WM 16 the fans are expecting it, so they just figured a way of doing it every year with something on the line. I actually have a theory on what the wwe MAY be conjuring up for WM 23 in Michigan. Tell me what you guys think. I think Edge cashing in on UT is more likely than him doing it on Cena/HBK. ---------- EVERYONE has made valid points, but I missed seeing something that has been overlooked. WRESTLEMANIA IN MICHIGAN 20 YEARS AFTER HOGAN VS. ANDRE THE GIANT. What was the hype of that match in 1987? Hulk Hogan's 3 year wwf heavyweight title reign going up against Andre The Giant's 15 year undefeated streak. That was one of the reasons why the event had such a draw and epic feel to it. There was a chance of Andre losing and there was a chance of Hulk Hogan losing. The wwe has UT in the main event for this EXACT reason imo and it is a smart idea. I agree with those that say only EDGE makes sense in ending the streak and I say this because EDGE would be able to use the rub for years and then have someone beat him for the streak and continue a tradition started by UNDERTAKER at WrestleMania. UT just retiring with a streak means nothing in the long run, but if he somehow loses in the right situation, right time, and right way the streak storyline can be used as a WM tradition for different eras instead of just the UT era of being unbeaten at the event. I think EDGE saying he might use the MITB to cash in the very night of WM 23 has given the intrigue of streak vs. streak match at the event as an impromptu match as an added element that anything can happen. Suppose EDGE wins the MITB again and then challenges the world heavyweight champion at the end of the night? Sometimes they do things to not telegraph it in fans' minds, but in this instance it is smart to give fans the notion that it MAY happen. I'm starting to think the wwe is second guessing Batista and rightfully so as the man to end the streak at Mania and may actually go with EDGE. Andre the Giant was the king of the battle royal all the way up to 1987 until he lost the battle royal on snme to Hercules creating the intrigue for the Mania match that it was slightly possible to beat Andre. Andre historically is still seen as the man who was the king of the battle royal. With this said, I go back and forth about whether Taker should lose the streak myself. However, if there EVER was a time for the wwe to do it it is this year simply because you can only do the WM return to Michigan celebration of the biggest WM ever once. Hogan not being there to be apart of this celebration imo is bad enough as he should be there in some kind of capacity. UT losing his streak at this event WILL be remembered more than him keeping the streak imo in the long run, but it has to be done very well. The guy doing it doesn't have to brag for years to make fans remember him being the one to end the streak. When Hogan slammed and defeated Andre he bragged about it for a few months, but fans remembered it for years and still do. Andre in some ways got immortalized by losing that match as well. What I see the wwe possibly doing is UT defeats Batista to win the gold. You get the happy ending in the main event and then Edge being a prick challenges UT for the title AND the streak with UT accepting. If Edge wins the guy will be forever heel and if UT wins his legacy at Mania grows even more bigger than life. I say if on both sides because this is one thing where I think the decision has to be made the day of the show riding of the emotion of the crowd and event. You might have a Hogan/Rock type of thing where maybe just maybe EDGE will get a fair amount of people behind him because winning the MITB twice is kind of a heroic thing and then being man enough to challenge Taker at the end may win him some points with fans. Edge winning and moving to smackdown to be the main player on that show without worrying about trying to compete with golden boy Cena(I mean I kind of agreed with the booking with Cena going over him as he is the top babyface) the wwe may be showing Edge they have faith in him to carry a brand. He kind of proved he has the tools last year. John Cena/HBK imo is more going to be like Steamboat/Savage and may steal the show as a one on one title match, but the streak is the main draw in the main event. Edge saying he will cash in on Cena/HBK puts the focus on RAW. If he just flats out says UT/Batista the element of surprise is gone. I'm not saying it is a definite, but I'm saying the option and potential is there for the angle to happen because they are hinting certain things on television. Going on Edge's character he would wait until the last match of the night to cash in because he would have gone through a grueling match himself in the MITB. That is why I say IF they do this angle Edge COULD become face. Becoming a two time winner in such a match and then having the balls to challenge Taker at the end of the night is a face move. Then tie in Edge's winning streak into it and it could work. I don't think they would be shooting themselves in the foot with having Edge/UT as an impromptu match because in actuality it isn't an impromptu match when they plan it. The match may not have the same dynamic because a)would it be a title match to have the intrigue of title vs. streak b)anything can happen between now and next year c)element of surprise and shock is completely gone I was a big Batista supporter, but it really is starting to look like Orton's abysmal failure as a face made people move toward Batista to take out HHH. Just remember how HHH completely punked Orton out of Evolution and took the title off him. Batista did get over I'm not saying that, but that whole Evolution angle helped Batista a lot. He hasn't been the same since going to smackdown imo. Just look at his overall performance from the switch from RAW to Smackdown. Even upon his return last year the wwe didn't give him the title right off the bat as supposedly planned at SummerSlam. They put him through Finlay to get his "rust" off. I don't know just look at Batista's heat level when he got the belt compared to now. At least Cena has kept it somewhat even throughout that "controversial" time. I can bet money if UT were to leave to the competition with gimmick in tact the wwe can make the streak NOT look as important as they are pimping it. Look at who he's won against in this streak and the wwe can market guys like HBK. HHH, Hogan, Savage, and even Hart being more important to WrestleMania. The streak as someone said before wasn't really an issue until he won against monster heel HHH at WM 17. Why? Because HHH just from the simple win at Mania 16 made greatness and a feat that can't be matched being the first heel to retain his title in the history of WrestleMania. You can add Flair to the list as greats he has defeated, but he wasn't exactly Ric Flair 80's at the time. Superfly and Jake can be argued, but then you got the Flair issue of them being past their prime. Then you got Orton who has amounted to nothing compared to HHH and Flair. Again, I'm back and forth about this UT win streak getting broken too, but I try to not look at it from a fan viewpoint and what would be best for the overall picture. I see the argument of Edge not ending the streak in the fashion of the MITB angle. What I disagree with is if Edge is not going to use the stipulation to fight Taker at Mania then he SHOULDN'T win the MITB and it should go to someone else like Orton. Give someone else the push and angle since Edge is already a top heel. I was thinking of Edge winning the MITB and creating something that triggers people to tune in in a fashion like Hogan turning heel(not saying that is the same level or anything, but something no one would see coming, but the booking actually foreshadowed it). I don't think that would happen with Edge winning and then going to smackdown and challenging the champion there(the whole thing with UT/Edge and the rub for Edge would be him ending the streak and title reign at Mania instead of just getting another title win which won't have the same effect on the big picture imo). They can do it the way you suggested, but I don't think that would make people stand and take notice of Edge as a new legend in the making. Taker has been defeated as champion before on regular ppv shows. Edge would just be seen as champion again like he was on RAW. Edge ending the streak and ending Taker's last reign as champion in one blow makes Edge more into a bona fide main eventer heel imo. The angle worked greatly with Edge the first time simply because of the shock value of it(plus the wwe probably didn't even plan the thing properly when the year was running out on the stip). Orton winning and foiling Edge's plan and then going after Taker on smackdown might be stronger and leave Edge on RAW(you still have the whole Batista/Orton dynamic to play off). If Batista ends the streak and Orton wins MITB you can send him over. Of course, as I said I'm back and forth on this and UT winning would be fine continuing the streak, but I think waiting to break the streak next year in a streak vs. streak angle will not have the same blow because it may be more expected. I'm for more "anything can happen" booking that makes sense. Too bad they can't book like this from top to bottom.

Actually, I think Rock has dropped considerably from the days of being touted as the next action superhero star a la Arnold. Darth Vader that would be a tremondous end to Mr. Mcmahon, but Vince loves the tv screen too much to vanish.

Actually, The Rock makes a lot of sense being hollywood and all that. He would be my first choice and I wouldn't be surprised if the wwe wanted him for the angle, but he turned it down. They took him off their raw superstar page recently and being this close to Mania maybe they tried to coax the guy and he doesn't want to bother. I also think Lashley/Umaga is better than the two other rumoured matches invovling guys like Hogan/Shane and HBK/Booker. Umaga and Lashley do make sense for Vince and Trump. Speaking of Hogan and Austin if the wwe could have pulled that off along with this mainstream match they would REALLY make a killing. UT putting his streak on the line for the title is also a great drawing card imo. Cena/HBK as a fresh match up isn't bad either, but they got to heat up the feud. I also like what they are doing with the MITB with teasing Edge wanting to cash it in on the night of Mania. I want to see how they flesh out the rest of the card. I want to see some real celebs at the event and give us some real old school Mania feel.

Hulk Hogan, Bret Hart, and Bruno would finish the trifecta. Hulk Hogan not being in the HOF would just be plain stupid and they fixed that. Hart being in the HOF helps after all that debacle we all know about, but it makes Hart look a bit suspect. Bruno accepting is hell on earth though Bruno is a much bigger critic than Hart ever was for obvious reasons and getting Bruno in with his blessing will give Vince some validity as being the guy who helped pro wrestling instead of destroying it(that's why I think he's doing this HOF crap to begin with). Bruno still represents wrestling before Mcmahon-a-Mania turned wrestling into another form forever. No love from Bruno and Backlund has to irk Vince somewhat because it will leave a mark to people who look back on this timeframe and what Vince did to wrestling. I'm talking 50-100 years from now. We'll see though. On the flipside, Bruno is making a lot of years go by where more and more people won't remember him being on things like Sports Heroes in the 70's and being the original Hulk Hogan of the wwwf. Hell, wwe doesn't even sound like the same company he worked for. Okay, this is a little off topic here, but how many people think Liz should get a nod to the HOF?

Guys like Perfect and Rude never mainevented because of guys like Hogan and Warrior and politics in general.......the fact that Warrior got a mainevent run while Perfect and Rude couldn't is pretty sad. Like for real. Perfect and Rude were in the wwf during Hogan's HEY DAY! You think they deserved a run as HEELS much less as world champion in the wwf back then? Savage was just that over and was even lucky due to Honky Tonk Man being a prick about dropping the IC title. Perfect would easily be a main eventer today in his prime. Perfect actually headlined house shows as IC champion in 1990 and 1991.

I really like the SNME/Main Event box set idea. The wwe did start that RAW season dvd thing, but for some reason stopped after 1999(well they only had two seasons). What they should do is the greatest promos and interview segments from Piper's Pit to Heartbreak Hotel to Flair for the Gold etc. etc. etc. along with those superstar/update segments.