Promoter

Let's hope not. I have to agree with that poster in the other thread about HBK paying HHH payback by saying HE DROPPED the ball this time and DX is done and he guns for Cena's title. Cena/Umaga will not be the WM main event. Vince won't do that for Mania. They pushed the feud from SummerSlam for the same reason why they won't have it at the big show. Umaga just isn't that type of ppv challenger. They used Federline and the streak to get him heat. Now, that is sort of gone now with Cena beating him.

Completely agreed about Flair, he is easily the most overrated wrestler in history, he was more routine than Hogan and all his "great" matches were identical, save for the street fight with Funk, In that UW interview I posted Warrior said Flair was a liar for calling himself the greatest and could work a broomstick because he said he couldn't work with Warrior. Is Warrior deluded or talking truth? In some ways it DOES say something about Flair. Savage, Rude, Perfect, and Dibiase seemed to carry Warrior rather easily(hell Hogan at WM 6 for crying out loud).

The age old Bret vs. Shawn. No matter which side someone chooses it says a ton that there is no heated debate with any new guys as this rivalry 10 years ago about who was better. The 5 moves of doom name was made for Bret in 1996-97 and in retrospect wasn't warranted. HBK IS ridiculous with how he works matches today. The only REAL time I see REAL HBK of his prime since his comeback have been the elimination chamber where he won the belt(which was dumb because he looked way too wimpy to survive that match back then), Jericho at WM 17, Angle at WM 21, and Hogan at SummerSlam(strictly for the way he pulled off his Diesel/Shawn stunt of WM 11 with Hogan). I don't think Bret would be dogging his matches the way HBK has been doing since his comeback for the most part and I'm talking the psychology. Then again, look at who the hell he has to work with in the new bunch, lol. HBK was actually DX HBK this past week for friggin once. Of course, if we ask HBK he will say differently that he has put on clinics with HHH since his return and had a better feud than Austin did with Vince. So, in 10 years the age old question will be who is better? Orton or Cena? LOL

Vince wants to recreate Hogan vs. Andre for the 20th anniversary of WM III. Vince couldn't let a WCW made star look better than his homegrown names. It's why Vince never makes the Invasion angle work, even when it's so easy to do. Yeah, and the similarities of Andre being in bad shape prior to WM 3 with Vince supposedly begging him to come back is eerily similar. Not saying they are trying to copy that aspect for WM 23, but who knows. Maybe it will work, but they better focus on people who have not seen Hogan/Show anytime in the last ten years. The Big Show/Hogan Andre stuff flopped in wcw for a reason. Russo even use to make fun of it as being a carbon copy of the 80's. I guess the 20th anniversary would make it easier to sell as not being a carbon copy, but as some kind of celebration of the big Hogan/Andre match. Personally, I think they should do Edge v. Hogan in Hogan's last match for a bunch of storyline reasons I won't bother do since it won't happen anyways.

Well, they got 20,000 to go without even advertising a match

Eddie and Benoit were PLANNED months in advance to be the champions because of their reaction to the crowds. It wasn't an off-chance thing as some might think it was. Both Eddie and Benoit were on smackdown in the fall of '03. There were rumours of one of them being sent to RAW to face HHH for Mania 20 remember? HHH chose Benoit surprise, surprise! They even still ended up doing Eddie/HHH on the first draft lottery on RAW. Back then they did not think two guys winning the title for the first time on the same night was a good idea(they ended up doing it a year later with Cena and Batista), so they had one of them win it earlier at NWO(the event had promoted Benoit/Brock actually, but it got switched when HHH decided Benoit to jump to RAW) which I clearly remember some poster at this site said was going to happen due to "an inside source"(you longtime guys know who I'm talking about). Remember smackdown mag had Eddie/Angle as the main event for Mania so close to Eddie winning the title? I also remember the rumour of Eddie holding the belt for a year, but SummerSlam more likely too. Benoit was the one planned to lose the belt first to HHH before that whole Orton debacle.

I stand corrected on Survivor Series. What I should have said was that a pay-per-view headlined by Chris Benoit was the second lowest WWF buyrate of the year. The point I was trying to make wasn't that Benoit wasn't a draw (because they hadn't even built him up yet), but that the Radicalz debut wasn't exactly something that effected business in any kind of major way. Nitpicking at the semantics of my point doesn't really change that either way. In some ways you are correct, but the Radicalz jumping imo helped to flush out the mid/uppercard for the wwe which it didn't have in years. Weren't the Radicalz apart of one of the highest rated segments in history in terms of just a match in Texas if I recall correctly? It's the same thing as the nWo jumping to the wwe to SOME degree which I know everyone will disagree with. You have to look at the whole roster and what matches the wwe actually had to promote to get the gist of what these guys brought to help not make things get stagnate earlier and it would have been stagnate. An example is WM 16 for Angle and Jericho. Benoit helped to add some sizzle as they were feuding for months. Malenko added the lightweight division along with Saturn to the tag division. They did what they did for wcw at their height. The wwe would have got boring a lot quicker if they did not jump.

The Radicalz jumping did create a big surge for the wwe. Don't forget the wwe was getting a bit stagnate where even Russo jumped ship. They help give the wwe something it had missed during the hey day of attitude and that was a solid midcard to go along with the upper card. They added immediately to the midcard with Jericho and Angle. The workrate got better for the wwe when they jumped and was one reason why they stayed ahead of wcw when Russo jumped and tried to make wcw more storyline driven to compare to the wwe. Russo was never good at workate stuff and the wwe took a different philosophy when he jumped to wcw with stuff like ironman matches between Rock and HHH.

East.Coast.J is right imo. Eddie in wcw in the persona he was in would not be a wise main event title run idea. A big reason why Eddie and Benoit's push to the top in 2004 worked and was accepted had to due with HHH holding the main event scene down for MONTHS and Brock finally getting into a groove as a heel champion. It didn't hurt either that fans did not want HBK or Angle as champions again. The wwe pulled the plug on their title reigns at the right time.

Very interesting read. Does anyone remember Angle's first interview on OTR? It's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what he said in this interview. He was grateful that the wwe had enough confidence in him that he won the wwe title within a year(in fact ALL the titles within a year) before he was even ready for it and stated that the other wrestlers were complaining. For a moment there he was also headlining WM 17 against Austin. I agree with some of what Kurt said in this interview, but characterization was ALL KURT in the first year. He was only given those titles because of his olympic background and to build his character along with being in the top angle with HHH/Stephanie where even WWE Champ The Rock played second fiddle. He is right that from 2002-2004 he was probably ripped from legitimately being the top star, but he seems to forget that Brock was being groomed with the wwe title and he was in serious neck jeopardy. I guess it's not only Vince who makes revisionist history. Angle is still a class athlete when he's on point though.

from indeed wrestling (http://indeedwrestling.frih.net/) http://dl01.blastpodcast.com/indeedwrestli..._1157433044.mp3 He discusses: what WWE think of TNA, Randy Orton's suspension was a work (to move him over to Raw and work the internet,) what work in production was like , minor things people got fired for, and why WWE don't generally hire fans of the product. It's apparently the real thing.

I think Justcoz is right somewhat especially with the wrong timing. Cena should have been kept a tweener and Vince agreeing must have thought about the Austin comparisons(SOMEONE must have thought going the Rock route was better). The story was never established why Cena would turn on Benoit who remember was in the root of his mega-push. I believe it also had to be political. I mean we see how they FORCE things down the fan's throat when they want a certain response. If all of creative wanted him tweener he would be tweener regardless of reaction in one arena. Hayes as head writer of smackdown is another story

Man, if Angle ever read this thread it would only make him REALLY want to prove people wrong in those other fields. It is also true that if Angle gets absolutely decimated it would really hurt the wwe. Look how much problems the Puder incident caused and they doctored that up real quick the following week when other forms of combat fighting were talking about how Angle couldn't get out of the Puder hold. The wwe brags about how Angle is the only Gold medalist in history. How he was the fastest rising star in years winning all the titles within a year. Fake or not it would have SOME impact on the wwe presentation. It's true not everyone is "smart" to wrestling as been mentioned. Being smart is not saying it's fake either.

What are you ppl watching?? Cena DID turn the crowd into his favour(you had to be in the arena), but Edge also got a standing ovation when the cameras faded on the ppv.

I'm with the group of people who say he should keep the streak. However, if someone does come along that can really benefit and make breaking the streak memorable or historic they should do it. I just don't see anyone right now that should do it. Orton was actually a good pick if he wasn't such a letdown with the Legend Killer gimmick and all.

Blame Russo in '99 for the destruction of the IC title as it has never recovered since. Benoit, Jericho, and Angle did their best in 2000, but too damage has been done.

Goldberg was champion, but who was still in the main events and in the most pushed programs? That's what some people really forget. Nah, Goldberg was still main eventing against guys like DDP. Hogan even disappeared a bit with that whole retirement crap for presidency. They should have given people what they wanted and that was Hogan vs. Nash and the whole nWO break up, but as promotions always do they run things into the ground and don't know when to stop when they have a good thing going.

Correct, putting someone over involves so much more then a simple loss. Guys like Hogan, Austin, Rock, Triple H, UT, Flair....have their status cemented right now. Even when they lose, there is usually a circumstance or a burial the next night on Raw or something in the near future that renders their losses meaningless. Truly putting someone over takes more then a simple job. This is somewhat true, BUT and a big BUT is that for all we know The Rock/Hogan match could have been an audible with the way it played out. In front of another crowd maybe the way the match ended would have made Rock the spotlight, but in TORONTO that just wasn't going to happen. The Rock was getting booed just from his intertview. The crowd WANTED Hogan to win the match. They WANTED Hogan to be the spotlight. If they didn't they would have simply booed the hell out of him. They did it in the mid 90's when they thought he didn't deserve the spotlight as the top dog. I bet the reactions would have been different if Austin was in the match billed as "Seeing who is the greatest ever". Vince should have seen that response coming a mile away with the way the match was built. It was clear what the intent was in that year. Rock gets put over by Hogan and in turn he puts over The next big thing in Brock Lesnar. Lesnar went over Hogan last in terms of legends enroute to facing Rock as champion at SummerSlam. Rock became undisputed champion after Hogan fluked it against HHH the month after jobbing to Rock at Mania. The way the match ended at Mania had to happen imo because fans wanted Hogan a face and he clearly outgrown the nWo stuff at that point(although I would have stretched that story out much longer). The Rock just simply beating Hogan and Hogan leaving would have left the crowd dissappointed and anticlimatic being Mania. Goldberg was OVER when Hogan jobbed to him and was the pinnacle of his career just as it was for Warrior defeating him. He had nowhere to go, but down imo. Goldberg still had the streak of all streaks going. It's funny as ratings dropped when Goldberg was champion which is forgotten. Anyways, Nash is soley responsible for Goldberg's demise for ending the streak for no reason and then doing the finger poke of doom with Hogan. Hogan never took the heat from Goldberg after his loss as he usually did like HHH in 20003/04 with opponents. I know exactly where you are coming from, but in these two instances Hogan did put them over.

The post about Vince not wanting an Olympic gold medalist dying on his watch is so true. That will be a complete disaster especially with this "Wellness Policy" they implemented because of Eddie Guerrero. The media and country would have field day with that one. I'm surprised they didn't get too much backlash from the documentary(can't recall now) with Foley's post match reactions after facing Rock at Royal Rumble. I think the wwe letting things get public over the last few months about Angle's condition is deliberate to prevent Angle from going to another compnay if they had decided to let him go. The company that would be hiring him is just asking for backlash imo. How would it look for them to take Angle when the big dog wwe fired him for not getting help? Angle trying his thing in MMA is another possibility with how obsessed he is with proving he is the best.

I kind of agree that Hogan coming back to put some of these newer guys over won't work and it also doesn't make sense for Hogan to put over two non wrestlers either. Hogan should just be up against useless guys with no up potential or some kind of throwback match such as Hogan vs. Big Show at WM 23. The reason I say this is that it's not 1987 anymore. Most fans will just see through it as an attempt to put some underserving new guy over. Hogan put over The Rock for crying out loud and that didn't work as the crowd wanted Hogan to win. If Hogan put over Orton at SummerSlam it would be forgotten just as it's already forgotten the two even had a damn match. Hogan can't put over anybody at this point. Steve Austin is a different story. People rag on Hogan, but the guy has NOT PUT ANYONE OVER. He lost to Rock at Mania 19 because it would have just been stupid for him to go over Rock at 3 Mania events and the story of the match was Rock not getting the better of Austin at the event. At least Hogan put over Ultimate Warrior and Undertaker back in the day as champions and the future. Austin can return and he CAN put someone over for good with the right booking and aftermath, but that aint gonna happen. He's gone and left the "new generation" empty. Something people said Hogan did to the wwf in the mid 90's, but Hogan at least put over crazy man Warrior and the guy of the topic Undertaker. Undertaker could put someone over and it could have been Orton, but would it have mattered afterwards? As for Hogan and the wwe comments concerning stuff like Andre putting him over it's just the two of them being generous in putting Andre over with the newer audience. Hogan was OVER BIG TIME well before the WM 3 match. Andre turning heel actually helped Andre more than anything. Hogan's recent comments about Warrior is also ridiculous. Hogan was sad as hell when Vince went with Warrior as champion. I still have tapes of Hogan whining in wwf interviews about his heart skipping a beat and all that crap which caused him to lose to Warrior. I also have a news interview before the match where Hogan said Warrior fans were putting the horse before carriage by saying Warrior fans were more vocally powerful at events than Hulkamaniacs. That sure as hell doesn't sound like a guy being sure of Warrior flopping as champion and the belt going back to him. Warrior was billed as the 90's champion in mags such as PWI and whatnot and Hogan was afraid his time was done. Back to UT, I don't see anyone who would benefit with ending the streak. UT turning heel, winning the Rumble, and going against a face champion is a great idea. However, we know they would do it with Cena and realistically he doesn't need it.

It's true that from summer 1997 until summer 1998 may have been the best booking wwe ever did. The problem is that all the great stuff they did within that timespan they kept doing over and over until they ran it into the ground. Really think about all the angles that happened in that year and you will see it copied verbatim ever since. 1999 I still conclude is smoke and mirrors due to the fact that the titles changed hands the most that year which kept people watching. We know exactly what this has caused in the years after 1999. 2000 was perhaps the actual wrestling content peak though. One thing that everyone has missed in this thread is this...........(stolen from another site and is A BIG REASON WHY PEOPLE JUST DON'T WATCH)!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *Not my post, but I echo the sentiments along with millions of other fans. ----------------------------------- I have been watching wrestling since i was 15, I got into it on my own and watched it despite the fact that my family thought it was the most retarded thing ever to grace the telivision. I honestly could have had an easier time explaining the advantages of phone sex to my parents than why I watched wrestling. Thing is, I grew to like it (wrestling not phone sex), and kept watching as new characters like the Rock and Jericho were introduced. I was genuinely proud of wrestling when The invasion angle was introduced and kept right on being disappointed all the way through the cancer called NWO. Thing is, I don't consider myself an OMG Workrate! fan because I saw hour long matches and I thought they get pretty fucking boring. I mean at a certain point you are watching a match you KNOW is going to go on much longer and already the two wrestlers are tired as hell. I am looking for/asking for ONE thing and one thing only in wrestling these days. I want to be able to show my girlfriend that it isn't as retarded as my family thought it was. I want to show it to her and have her not take it with a grain of salt. I don't want to have to say, "Now I know these 45 minutes of packages and skits and promos sucked but there is this guy when he does this thing that makes the last 2 hours of your time spent totally worth it." Thing is at this point, I know I can't. I dont' even bother watching anymore and I simply get my information from this website or wrestlezone. What is even more infurating is that if WWE would do what I want it to do it would make much more money. But it isn't and that is why I think Vince really is taking the company in the wrong direction. I mean a trend I have noticed is that the things in WWE anti-Vince are getting the best reviews. When Smackdown had it's own identity (with the Smackdown six) it was a giant "Fuck you" to Vince and his "entertainment" ideas. Low and behold, it was kicking Raw's ass and needed a gutting. When ECW first popped up and was reflecting a Vince touch, people were saying it was the worst thing on tv ever. Now, with clearly less Vince and more separation from other things WWE, (like having their own wrestlers) ECW is doing better than people hoped, and is clearly better than smackdown. Thing is, people can actually watch that wrestling on sci-fi and say things like "Hey, check out this sabu guy, or RVD and Angle are going to have a match you got to see this, or fucking Big show is huge..." I have mch more faith in Heyman than I do Rhodes or anything McMahon. I guess the point I am trying to make in a roundabout way is that we are more focused on the product in an enviornment like this because we are too ashamed to bring it up to people we just met or folks at work we don't know. And that is purely Vince's fault. All our thoughts and opinions get poured into a forum like this because asking what my GF thought of it is simply not an option. As a result, every tidbit of analysis about every part can only be vented somewhere like this. I will start enjoying WWE if it can simply not shame its viewers (at the very leat, the amount of shame is less than the amount of pride), hell, at one point (I think it was at the height of the NWO in WCW I believe) you had regular rich housewives saying how they thought Nash was sexy, which meant that regular Moms watched wrestling with their kids. You would never have rich housewives having their kids watch "Live sex acts" on WWE raw now. Not that I hate live sex acts, Lita's contributions are always welcome, but it is simply irritating as an enthusiast to see the ONE outlet for wrestling be so pitifully managed by people grossly undeserving of any label involving the word creative. So yeah, my name is Cyrus, I hate Vince, and I am a closet wrestling fan.

Well, I think it's a good effort on the part of the wwe to try and create a new WM 3 for this era. I think the only event coming close to it was WM 17. WM 14 felt more like the original Mania in that there was a changing of the landscape of pro wrestling. From things I've read the wwe didn't even have the main event planned for Mania 3 until the fall of 1986. It was going to be either Hogan vs. Andre or Hogan vs. Orndorff in a steel cage(the match happened on SNME as we know). So judging on what the company wants to do I think it's safe to say they want John Cena in the main event. Cena regaining the title in Boston(the same place where Austin won the wwe title in 1998) may be the start of a program that leads to Mania 23. If Cena's movie bombs at the box office I can see them turning the guy heel. Then they would have options for who he could face. HHH is a possibility as a babyface even though some would hate that, but I really think it could sell with either The Rock or Steve Austin. If they want it to be like the "passing of the torch" a la Hogan/Andre in 1987 then he NEEDS to face Rock or Austin. I would lean towards Austin since Austin hasn't really passed the torch to anyone, while Rock did the job to Brock. Brock Lesnar I forgot about too. He probably would be a face against Cena upon returning. The question is would Rock or Austin come out of retirement and I think they would. Vince has the cash and I bet he would sell it like the way he sold it to Andre in 1986 about doing it for the business. If Andre could return to pass the torch in the condition he was in why can't Austin or Rock would be his argument. Lesnar is a bit more tricky with his attitude and whatnot in terms of workload and so on. If the wwe gets their heads out of their asses they could also do a big interpromotional showdown between ECW vs. WWE with real ramifications. HHH vs. Kurt Angle is actually a good idea. I would also do UT vs. Edge in a battle of the undefeated playing off WM 3 Hogan/Andre backstory. I agree that all three retired guys don't have to be on the card, but it would help. One HAS to be on the card though as iggymcfly stated to help be a draw for either Cena or HHH. The thing is that the wwe wants Orton and Cena to be flagbearers of the future and I think they HAVE to be in a great feud with the staple stars of the attitude era in Rock and Austin. Cena went over HHH already and Orton was just not ready to go over HHH at the time of their feud. I'm doing "wwe think" here and they could build Orton up by having him go over Hogan at SummerSlam and continue to brag for months and then put him against either Rock or Austin at WM 23, while the other guy faces Cena. That's if they want Mania 23 to have that sort of passing of the torch and changing of the guard type of feel to it. I still think Cena should be in the main and title match more than HHH for the simple fact that HHH has beaten all of these guys unless they get Lesnar back. However Lesnar hypoethetically should really be on smackdown and do a feud with Batista to help smackdown's drawing power for the show. Vince wants Hogan on the show simply to pimp the 20th anniversary of Hogan/Andre. Hypothetically, if they want to try and proclaim something greater for Hogan at this event only Hogan/Austin would be credible, but the two guys are obviously on their last legs. If it were to be their last match the audience will be forgiving for the poor workrate knowing it was the last time they would see these two in the ring, but we know about retirements being for good in wrestling. Hogan could face Foley and play off the current feud with Flair with Foley wanting to go up against the wwf legend of the 80's after trashing the NWA 80's legend. The undercard will work itself out I think though. Carlito and the likes will obviously fit in well somehow.

Austin, Rock, and Hogan have to be on the card imo for this thing to fly. Those are the only combos that can work with some of today's stars which can have any lasting effect like WM 3. They could do.... Hogan matches that can mean something Hogan vs. Austin(Last match ever as someone said) Hogan vs. Cena (champ of this era against old champ) Hogan vs. Edge (Edge's undefeated streak against Hogan and Edge seeing Hogan at Mania 6 backstory) Hogan vs. Khali playing off WM 3 Austin matches: Austin vs. Hogan Austin vs. Cena(I actually think this is the only match that can rival Hogan/Austin simply because of Cena's twisted heat) Austin vs. Orton(you know the legend killer drill) Rock Matches: Rock vs. HBK Rock vs. Cena Rock vs. Orton (you know they are dying to do this and have pushed it back on purpose). I don't see any combo of anything on the current roster than can have a chance in hell in comparing to the legend of WM 3. They must have Rock, Austin, Hogan in some capacity working with the newer guys. HHH does not need to be in the world title scene either. They could do DX against Rock/Austin for the tag title if need be.

Man, it couldn't have been said any clearer!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

well they pretty much already have said who the father is, well thru the wink, wink type way. (HBK mentions HHH is at the same hospital for no apparant reason) unless the angle says HHH and Step have gotten back together behind Vinces back over the past year Well, Vince did re-introduce the two on the USA reunion show. For once they've thought something out long term.