RavishingRickRudo

Besides the mentions of death in both incidents, there are absolutely no connections between the two of them. They are both parallel incidents, and it seems somewhat ridiculous that people are desperately trying to cling onto something that isn't there. Death is a touchy subject, so is rape, yet the WWEs flagrant use of both is disregarded both by the media and by the majority of their fans. This is about accountability, this is about the WWE being responsible for what they write. Owen Hart died 5 years ago in that building and there appears to be NO RESPECT AT ALL for that, as they -in that building- continued to treat Death as a storyline, as a tool. Vince McMahon might not have picked up on the idea that Kane was threatening to kill his child's killer in the same arena Owen Hart plummeted to his death - but why would he? The situations are not similiar, and what it sounds like you're proposing is a complete ban on the word "death" whenever WWE steps into Kansas City, from 1999 to the end of time. Why would he? HE ACCEPTED RESPONSIBILITY FOR OWENS DEATH. How in gods name could he enter that arena and NOT think about Owen? How could anyone on that roster? It was the first thing that came to my mind when they said "Kempler Arena, Kansas City" and I didn't know him or have any attachment to his death or was involved in a lengthy lawsuit or had to give up 18 million in liability. The mistake people are making here is that they are starting to get grossly unrealistic on the basis of sensitivity. If WWE had Gene Snitsky descending from the rafters last night in a Blue Blazer costume, screaming that the deaths of Kane's baby and Owen Hart were both not his fault - THAT would be horrifically offensive. I said *in this thread* that I wasn't outraged over it. I brought up the bigger issue that you have thus far completely ignored and perhaps misinterpreted. Agreed. THAT would be something to complain about, no doubt. But to keep arguing over the idea that a distraught father vowed revenge on his son's murder - keep in mind now, threatening to "kill him" is only a figure of speech - is terribly offensive when someone died in that arena five years ago just seems way too extreme in the realm of political correctness and sensitivity. Yeah, Death and Murder really should be treated like anything else. Especially such a tiny, insignificant, death like Owens. It's really just spilled milk in the grand scheme of things.

NL5: To me, Vince admitting that he was to blame & them making a death reference last night are two different things that have absolutely nothing to do with each other. So you don't think there is a responsibility to Owen, his family, or just general morality, to take his death in consideration when writing storylines in that building. Well, they didn't even consider it the night that he died, so shit, I guess it *is* too much to ask for them to think about it 5 years later. There is a connection between the two, and it is very much relevant. If someones (high profile) death that you admitted responsibility for doesn't make you think of the consequences of your programming, than what will? Combat: Ok, so now no wrestler ever should make refrence to "killing" his opponent any time the WWE is in KC? That's just stupid. If I was a writer I still would have had Kane say something to that effect even though I'd know that Owen died there. Why should death be involved in the WWE, period? The WWE supposedly doesn't do murder angles, yet they clearly go against their own rules. But for some reason that's ok. For some reason they keep getting away with murder. Why? I have my thoughts on why, but I'd like to know why the people who continually shrug this stuff off, shrug it off. So far I've heard "Life goes on"... "There's no murder. There's no attempted murder. There's no shotgun blasts. There's no Uzis used. You don't see any guts hanging out. Nobody's brains are blown out. There's no rape, there's no robbery. You're going to see blood, but only when used properly. Because after a while, like anything else, that can get to be gratuitous. We're sensitive to what we do and when we do it. So how bad are we? Compared to everything else, we're Sunday school." - Vince Mcmahon

"I kind of wonder how Gene Snitsky feels about "baby killer" being chanted at him" "I don't really see a big deal in this, but that's just me I guess. "Worse has happened" "No one in the audience that I'm aware of made the connection." "Hell *I* didn't know they were in KC til I got halfway thru the OAO thread." "Well, if that was the case, then I think we're stretching a little bit for indignation. " + "I just watched the tape and quite frankly, I really don't understand why everybody is making a big deal about this. Kane was doing an interview from a remote location and basically made a euphism for the fact that he's going to kick Gene Snitsky's ass for causing his wife to have a miscarriage. This whole debate is stupid" "Bingo! Wrestling fans sure have become ultra-sensitive in the last couple of years. " "Hey, what city did Droz get dropped in, so we can all know to be hyper-sensitive about any "he's trying to end his career!" type hyperbole from the announcers. Even if they WERE trying to imply something about Owen, it's not the end of the world. And the fact that they most likely were NOT trying to imply something about him shouldn't be overlooked. " "I think people are just trying to find some way this angle is controversially affending just so it will end." "Wait.. I wanna pretend to be offended and add to the drama! I think it was very disrespectful the crowd chanted the word "killer" in the arena Owen Hart died in! " I love how people ignore my point in favour of spouting of the same rhetoric that has been said OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER again in this thread. The singlular incident isn't the problem, the fact that it (a)was a main topic of the night and there was no thought of "hey, Owen died here... maybe this could be tasteless", in other words, that there wasn't anyone there to say what really should have been said and (b)the bigger problem that there is no accountability on the part of the WWE and even within the WWE, IS where the problem lies.

"Oh that Val Venis, he's a big name. He's a big time superstar. He's a major leaguer for sure. A win over him is a statement. Yes it is. Sure, he only appears on RAW to lose and has a 50/50 record at best on Heat, but that doesn't stop him from being on top of the mountain."

BTW, Since when has Flair been coming out with a "Wooo!"-less entrance theme?

I'm looking forward to the (hopefully) Not Fade Away vs. The Gift discussion. I could argue both sides pretty well, and just might

Not in this particular area, and not really in this thread. I haven't heard a single issue brought up with 'accountability and the WWE' by anyone, and for all I know I'm the only one who actually cares about it and sees a greater issue involved (more people have posted "FAKE OUTRAGE!" and the related "satire" than thinking about how this represents a larger problem).

I watch about 40 minutes of wrestling per week. I catch _minutes_ of Smackdown, Velocity, and Heat. The total of those 3 shows MIGHT be 10 minutes. I watch about a half hour (in total) of RAW each week. In 2000 I watched about 11 HOURS of it. Even as late as last year I'd be up for 2 hours a week. Those of you wishing me gone, by next year I just may be. Naturally, those of you who wish me gone don't see an issue here. It's not the WWE's fault that I am becoming more and more disinterested in their product, it's clearly mine.

And I can't believe (wait, I can) that Christy only had one move to really do and still botched it and had to have Trish lead her through it.

To specifically answer your question - it was a tasteless remark that a lot of people here are dismissing. You aren't offended by it, fine. However you should still be able to see the problem that is associated with it.

No. (Even though they are more blatent in their message.) Your point?

What I didn't like: The finish to the Benjamin/HHH match. It's irony at its finest. They supposedly are "protecting" Benjamin by not having him lose, but Sheldon did not get *anything* from that win. ALL of the heat went to HHH, despite or inspite of winning Edit:: losing -if that doesn't show the effect of that match, I dunno what does . I am sensing some "Xpac" heat for HHH. It's nothing huge, but it should be something to take note of for the WWE. What's with all the big boots? Gene S., Tomko, Kane, etc. Test must be rolling over in his grave. Speaking of which, do we really need Test jr. in the WWE? I'm not feeling the "It's not my fault" (though the potential in hilarious parody is great), but it would be cool to see him being "reluctantly protected" by Bischoff (Snitsky threatening to sue the WWE if Kane does something bad, or the legal consequences of Kane going over the edge), and him taking advantage of that protection. Poor Val Venis. This guy is one of the best wrestlers on the roster, and has been positioned as a complete jobber. It's sad. He did a pretty ok job of making GS look good, as it wasn't a total disaster of a match that it could have been given GS's experience and skills. It's a shame that the ability to make others look good is being taken for granted and abused rather than rewarded.

What I liked: They Rhyno/Tajiri vs. Hurricane/Rosie tag match. I really liked the way they worked the crowd and build their spots. Rhyno, in particular, is turning it up. They took what was a completely apathetic crowd and sucked some interest out of them. Rosie played his role really well, I won't hide that he's one of my favourite guys on RAW, and I enjoyed his catch-kick/slap move to Tajiri. The two cruiserweights underperformed, IMO, but perhaps an extra 10 minutes and a PPV setting could motivate them. The Fantasy Board listings. Fan recognition, especially internet fan recognition and appreciation, is really key in Wrestling. Wrestling is a fan-driven business, from wrestlers recognizing chants to Flair singling out some "fat boy", interaction with the audience is so important. I hope they keep this up rather than trying it for a few weeks and just dropping it. They need to find a better way to talk about the FB though, because JR and King seemed so forced and it took a little away from the flow of the show. That flow and uncomfortable issue may push the WWE away from the idea and give up on it, but they shouldn't waiver - just improve and think of better ways of doing it. Trish is probably the most entertaining character on the mic, even if she is terribly derivative. She is really taking to this character, and hopefully she can translate that character and those traits into the ring, rather than continuing to wrestle the same style. Molly looked, for the first time ever (to me), really hot. Orton finally delivered on the mic. He felt a lot more comfortable and natural, but I still got the feeling that he rehearsed it. However, it felt that he rehearsed it really well and worked on his delivery, so I won't fault him for that. Good job. He should still stop trying to be the Rock. When he came down to the ring, though, I got the feeling that "here's a superstar".

Whoops, wrong thread Oh, um. I love the WWE morality. The message of "get naked and people will like you" is a great one for the young girls of the world. They sure didn't strip her of her dignity... because you'd have to have dignity in the first place.

DK, don't worry bout it. Every once-and-a-while there are people who feel the need to say "STOP BITCHING! BAD WORDS MAKE ME CRY!". There are certain stages a fan goes through. Back in 1999 I defended the WWE's stupid moves - I actually used "It's a symbol" as a rationale for the Taker angle. I am sure if you look back there are posters here who once said to me "You're being too negative, why don't you stop watching" and are now in the same boat as me. Some people have higher BS tolerance than others. Sometimes it takes a while for people to realize certain things. I understand that, so I tolerate the obvious hypocriticism in saying "If you don't like it, don't watch it." all-the-while they don't like what you write, but they continue to read. The best thing I can do is point that out and try to steer them towards the issue-at-hand.

That's why they need you to show them the error of their 'evil' ways, right? All that may be true, but in the end nobody gives a flying fuck what they do. And you don't think that's a problem? That the WWE can get away with anything and there wouldn't be any significant fuss being made? You don't see the implications of that? Well, Of course you don't. That means you'd have to hold the WWE accountable for something, and when you do that, well... that might means you'd have to say something against them. I don't see it as my personal mission to "show them the error of their ways", but no one else is really doing it, now are they? I'm thinking, if you had your way, there wouldn't be anything bad said about the WWE. Neither do any of your posts, unless you count whining as a legit topic. BTW I was gonna talk about Bret Hart exploiting it (thanks for making me open that can of worms) for three years but I'm already at my Bret Hart battle royal quota You are still not making sense. The implication of "This doesn't make sense" is for you to clearify and perhaps expand on the idea presented, I'm sorry if that didn't get across in my original statement.

"Rudo being negative" cannot even be related to this discussion. Vince admitting he was responsble in court, and the subsequent moral obligation, can be related.

Rudo, we're talking about a fucking sports-entertainment company. Not really something of worldly importance here. They're a publically listed/traded company. That alone should hold them to some accountability. Not only that, but they have involved themselves in politics, the war in Iraq, and have put their wrestlers in schools. They pander to a younger audience, they have several hours of television time, and their brand is known and projected throughout the world. They should be held accountable for their programming. They aren't. That means they can do this again and again and again and again and again, and they'd still have someone like you saying it's just one incident, or that they're "just" this and that, and dismissing, spinning, and being blind to almost every bad thing the WWE does. And BTW, life goes on, that's why I have no problem with WWE doing that angle. Hell if I'm getting slammed in another thread because WWE 'isn't moving on' from Montreal, then let's be a little bit more consistent. Nobody had a problem with, aw fuck it I really don't feel like getting into THAT again. This doesn't make sense.

Your "help"/flaming isn't needed or required. I never gave the impression that it was. Next time, stay on topic or at the very least in the realm of conversation.

You'd vote for Firefly, or else.... ... I'd get the army of middle-aged white women that is Fireflys main fan base and DESTROY YOU.

The WWE doesn't really do anything right. I mean, I'm looking at a 95% failure rate (which is generous), so the majority of my posts are indicative of that. Really, you guys aren't saying anything new and are really going off topic here. Rather than responding to my very legitimate points of the WWE not being held accountable you'd rather attack me. All that says to me is that you've got nothing to respond to that. You aren't very good at supporting the WWE, but then again, they aren't doing a very good job supporting you. You should think about that before you talk about me being negative.

Great One, if you don't like my rants, take your own advice. Vince admitted responsibily for Owens death in court. There's no debate in this regard. This is something bad, new or not, and it won't translate into anything substantial and thus is a complete waste of time and resources.

I agree. But an all Firefly finals isn't fair to the rest

Vince was responsible for the death of Owen Hart in that building - he admitted it in court. They never even CONSIDERED where they were at, and THAT'S the problem. They should be walking on egg shells in that arena, hell, it's the least they could do. This is one link in a long chain of foibles and inconsiderate acts the WWE has done and they are NEVER HELD ACCOUNTABLE for it. Not by the government, not by the media, and looking in this thread, not by their fans either. I am not personally outraged at the one incident, but it has become a disgusting habit of ignorance the WWE has shown in the past few years, and people try to defend each one of them without looking at the whole picture and the why. The WWE doesn't have a conscience, there is obviously no one there to point things like this out to them, and they don't feel the least bit responsible for their actions. But no, it can't possibly be that. It has to be people LOOKING to be offended. It's not the WWE's fault. It's never their fault.

I think the fact that they weren't even considering it is almost as bad as intentionally doing it. "Never Forget" my ass.