What would you rate Benoit/RVD from Raw?

[Guest HartFan86]

OK, after watching it again, I take back my statement that RVD didn't grab his arm...cause obviously on the second viewing, he did. This is what pisses me off:

 

1. RVD sells arm, but then he counters with that spin kick over the back thing and RVD lands RIGHT UP ON HIS SHOULDERS and bents, but doesn't sell his shoulder.

 

2. RVD bounces off the ropes and gives him a spin kick and LANDS RIGHT ON THE SHOULDER...and doesn't sell.

 

3. RVD does the rolling thunder, which puts pressure on the shoulder blades, and he doesn't sell the shoulder.

 

4. RVD has enough energy in his LEFT SHOULDER/ARM that he can pull himself up for the 5 star.

 

Since he does this...it totally defeats the purpose of having the arm worked on in the first place. Guys, don't be hypocrites. You give Hogan shit for not selling...you should give RVD the same.

 

 

 

 

Then again...it was free TV and I'm thankful for what I got. I just hope in a rematch, if Benoit works on RVD's *body part*, RVD will sell it.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I don't give Hogan shit for not selling.

 

I've never even seen anyone work a body part on Hogan.

 

Except for Flair and the leg...and he sold that.

 

Here's why the RVD thing is wrong:

 

"1. RVD sells arm, but then he counters with that spin kick over the back thing and RVD lands RIGHT UP ON HIS SHOULDERS and bents, but doesn't sell his shoulder."

 

Right...after which he is unable to get to his feet before Benoit...who then takes control of the offense again.

 

 

"2. RVD bounces off the ropes and gives him a spin kick and LANDS RIGHT ON THE SHOULDER...and doesn't sell.

3. RVD does the rolling thunder, which puts pressure on the shoulder blades, and he doesn't sell the shoulder.

4. RVD has enough energy in his LEFT SHOULDER/ARM that he can pull himself up for the 5 star."

 

This was all a part of his 1 minute comeback...during which he was almost crossfaced once...and then missed the ***** and basically just got beat after it.

 

Everyone has comebacks. If RVD stopped in between each to fall all over his arm it would have stood directly in the way of his base need to capitalize on his opponent being in trouble for the first time. And it would have been hella boring to boot.

 

Furthermore...it would have made Benoit look like a bitch to not be able to move from the Rolling Thunder while RVD wasted time dealing with his arm.

 

The point of the match was to make Benoit look strong...but still not have enough to beat RVD. His crossface didn't work...and in the end he cheated.

 

It told it's story...a story that will look mighty fine in the sequal.

 

However...stopping to sell his arm during his comeback would have hurt the story IMO.

[Guest bob_barron]

Bah GAWD RVD is hulking up.

 

Man I'd laugh my ass off if he did the whole hulking up sequence

[Guest HartFan86]

I'm not pointing the finger towards you as far as Hogan goes, but it's just that some people will bash Hogan and let this slide.

 

"Everyone has comebacks. If RVD stopped in between each to fall all over his arm it would have stood directly in the way of his base need to capitalize on his opponent being in trouble for the first time. And it would have been hella boring to boot."

 

All he had to do is grab his arm and keep going or say "Damn, my arm." He just ignored Benoit worked on it. Guys all the time stop during their comeback to sell the injuried body part, but keep going. He doesn't need to stop for 5 minutes and yell, but just during his back "comeback", just grab it or something. Make it look like it still somewhat hurts.

 

"Furthermore...it would have made Benoit look like a bitch to not be able to move from the Rolling Thunder while RVD wasted time dealing with his arm. "

 

Ever heard of sacrificing your own body to put more punishment on your oppenent? Exactly. He still hit the rolling thunder full force, but he should of sold the arm in the mean time.

 

"The point of the match was to make Benoit look strong...but still not have enough to beat RVD. His crossface didn't work...and in the end he cheated.

 

It told it's story...a story that will look mighty fine in the sequal."

 

Very true statement...it's just that selling the arm would of made sense. Why? Rematch, Benoit works on the arm cause it's already weakened. That's if you wanted pyschology...but I see where you coming from.

 

All in all, RVD could have gone out of his way to grab his arm and acknowledge the ass kicking Benoit came him...but he didn't and there's really no point in aruging over it cause we can't change the past. You and I both know that if they have a rematch, it will be much, much better...simply because they will have buildup, more time to do their thing, etc.

 

Like I said...I did get it on Cable TV...so I shouldn't complain that much.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I can almost gurantee you that if they have a rematch RVD works Benoit's arm instead.

 

That's the way they did the RVD/Eddy feud...with Eddy attacking RVD's back at Backlash...and RVD turning the tables and doing it to Eddy at JD.

 

The JD match is my personal MOTY.

 

A rematch of this would be so good...because a longer match is good...and RVD would probably control more of the match as the challenger (like his JD match with Eddy).

 

That way...Benoit can sell for you...and I predict he would also win the match.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

RVD isn't a very good seller, and pointing at someone else no-selling isn't a valid defense. I have been saying that the Rock no-sells everything by doing the kip-up since he first started doing it. I have also been mentioning that RVD does a poor job of selling as well. I point it out when everyone does it, because it takes away from the match quality. I can't enjoy a match when one man makes a point of working on a specific body part, and the work is rendered pointless later on. If someone has an arm that has been worked on, they should favor that arm during the course of the match. Just because someone is a fan of a particular wrestler, doesn't mean that someone making a valid criticism should be ignored.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

A: I don't see how he was ignored when we discussed it for an entire page.

 

B: RVD sold the arm when Benoit worked it...that's plenty enough for me...and more than I usually see from most.

[Guest mach7]

I'd go about ***.75. A few spots looked a little off, but it still entertained the hell out of me. I'm sure if they were given more time they'd be able to pull off something damn close to, if not a full five stars. Can you imagine the story they could tell with 25-35 minutes? I would die a happy man.

[Guest thebigjig]

At SummerSlam, assuming they wrestle again at SummerSlam, give them 10-15 more minutes and you've got a candidate for match of the year

[Guest HartFan86]

you've got a candidate for match of the year

...No.

 

 

 

You would have THE match of the year

 

Post 1800...wow, I'm truly a spammer.

[Guest Big McLargeHuge]

***1/4. That's my rating. Yes it is.

[Guest thebigjig]

you've got a candidate for match of the year

...No.

 

 

 

You would have THE match of the year

 

Post 1800...wow, I'm truly a spammer.

Hey now, let's not jump to conclusions... we probably have Hogan vs. Brock coming up within the next few weeks

[Guest Flyboy]

"Escape godamn you!" -- BMLH

 

That says it all.

[Guest Zero_Cool]

***3/4

 

1/3 extra for the cool ending...

[Guest RickyChosyu]

He grabbed his arm when Benoit was working the arm.

 

Later in the match...Benoit wasn't working the arm so Benoit had to sell what Benoit was doing.

 

RVD didn't exactly get alot of O in...so I don't see the issue here.

 

Under these cicumstances...no match can ever be that good...because no one sells an arm when the other guy kicks you in the head.

Eh, you're missing the point. The story of the match was centered around Benoit's attempts to get a sumbmision with the crossface, and thus RVD's arm was a supporting part of that story. RVD did nothing to remind us that his arm was hurting whenever Benoit wasn't working it over, which is bad selling.

 

There are plenty of ways to put it over when it's not being worked over, too: favoring it durring breaks in action, shielding it from strikes by turning it away from Benoit, or even going the Sasuke route by selling it after doing lost of flip-flop that utalizes it would have been nice. RVD isn't exactly regarded as the king of selling, but defending him in this case by using the Rock as an example doesn't really work.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

The Rock no sold far more than RVD did by not holding his arm when he stayed down in between every break in action due to the beating he laid down.

 

IF RVD had kept getting up and flopping around I could agree with you...but he stayed down.

 

Rock just flipped right up and looked as fresh as the moment he walked in.

 

RVD looked like the beaten man that he was.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

The Rock no sold far more than RVD did by not holding his arm when he stayed down in between every break in action due to the beating he laid down.

 

IF RVD had kept getting up and flopping around I could agree with you...but he stayed down.

 

Rock just flipped right up and looked as fresh as the moment he walked in.

 

RVD looked like the beaten man that he was.

The Rock has comitted far worse offenses than no-selling arm work, and will no doubt do worse in the future. Thing is, I'm not talking about the Rock, I'm talking about RVD.

 

Mediocre selling in itself is not derived from bad examples, it's derived from mediocre effort. RVD didn't sell as well as he should have. Just because the Rock has done it more often than him doesn't make it acceptable by virtue that it's an improvement over the norm. Mediocre is mediocre, and so was Rob's selling.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

That's fine.

 

I don't disagree.

 

My main point is when RVD doesn't grab his arm from minute 6 to minute 8 of a match...a bunch of people jump on it.

 

But no one ever says anything about the Rock...or hell...even HBK in his day...no selling everything to do that damn kip up thing.

 

That seems a tad unfair.

[Guest NoCalMike]

Ok, well we have to remember this was a RAW match which only gives a limited number of minutes to tell the story and get over with. Had this been a ppv match I am sure RVD would have spent more time selling the arm. And, boy I can't wait for their match at Summerslam IF it happens~!

[Guest RickyChosyu]

That's fine.

 

I don't disagree.

 

My main point is when RVD doesn't grab his arm from minute 6 to minute 8 of a match...a bunch of people jump on it.

 

But no one ever says anything about the Rock...or hell...even HBK in his day...no selling everything to do that damn kip up thing.

 

That seems a tad unfair.

Attribute that to what you will. I'm not sure the people around here even realize what their deffinition of "good work" as opposed to "good match" is anymore, so whatever.

 

Michaels is the king of "now I'm dead, now I'm not" as an upgraded form of the usual "delayed selling" goofyness, but you're correct in that most people turn a blind eye to it. Rock seems to get more flack, but not as much as someone like Rob.

 

As for the match being too short to tell a story, that's one of the main problems with wrestling today, but it doesn't take too long to shake your arm to show that it's hurting, or favor it after rolling onto it. Rob's second IC title match with Eddy has lots of spotty selling too, and that was given quite a considerable amount of time.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I never said he was good at it...

 

But he has improved.

 

And IMO the story was still told.

 

And that's what I view as important.

 

I walk away from the match thinking "Man...Benoit beat the crap out of RVD...but he couldn't make RVD quit...and had to cheat."

 

Now I want a rematch...ok...so I would have wanted one anyway...

 

But still...

[Guest Raven_Effect01]

I give it ***1/2, it would have been better if RVD favored the arm more, but I liked the match anyway. I hope their PPV match is even better and if Benoit works on the arm again, RVD should favor it in the PPV match this time.

[Guest Vitamin X]

It gets only *** from me. It was good, but not classic. And, as crazy as this may sound to a lot of Smarks, I think Benoit is EXTREMELY overrated. As if the guy can carry anyone to **1/2 or above.

 

Personally, and I know I might be making a bit of a statement here, so just to let you guys know I'm not trolling or anything, I haven't seen Benoit wrestle that many good matches in the WWF. I jsut know when Benoit's on the screen, it's BENOIT~! OHMIGOD BENOIT~! and I'm...honestly not very excited about him. RVD, on the other hand... damn, just, damn man. And he's got the charisma to go with it.

 

I think the no-selling RVD did is part of the clash of styles that these two have, RVD's chain-highspots against Benoit's chain-wrestling, I suppose that RVD's no-selling is the way Rob said "OK no do this match MY WAY now". Or maybe I'm just confused.

 

Whatever.

[Guest Ripper]

While everyone is all over RVD about the arm, when was the last time someone sold the ribs during a RVD match when all of his offense(the rolling thunder, the heel kick on the apron, the flippy shoulder block, the Five Star, and all of his little moonsaults and sentons and most of his kicks) focus on the ribs.

 

No one sells that at all and they are all setting up RVD's finisher. RVD stopped selling the shoulder when he started getting kicked in the head...that's very believeable.

[Guest Hitman Jebus]

***1/4 sounds good to me

Just saw it again on tape...move by move...and using the patented Hitman Jebus rating system I now deem it ****...yep, liked it that much

[Guest I Fear Hogans Air Guitair]

Damn I missed Raw when cause I was working i will see it on Wedsnday but my friend told me he thought it was **** stars and if they have a 15 minuet Rematch at Summerslam it will be MOTY. He also Said that this was the 3rd best match of the year after RVD Eddy Ladder and RVD Eddy JD.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

bps21, RVD's improvement from "complete tripe" to "enjoyable worker" is obvious, but he obviously still has room to improve, especially if he wants to be the kind of guy that never talks but stays over because he can have good matches.

 

And Benoit's work in the WWF is slightly over-rated...but it doesn't hold a candle to how much RVD gets help from the hype machine. Rob has had some matches with Jeff Hardy, Chris Jericho, and Eddy Guererro, that I found to be overblown, direction-less piles of nothing, and Keith has given them all **** or higher. Benoit had the match of the North American Match of the Year last year, and several great matches the year before that, carrying plenty of the usual jokers to very good matches, probably the best of their careers. The year before that, he once again had the NAMOTY with Malenko, Raven, and Saturn in WCW. To say he's a contender for best wrestler to work state-side for the last few years is an understatement.

 

Ripper, RVD hardly ever workers the ribs as a point of the match. He's done it on occasion, but when you want to make a point of working a body part, you have to give the fans more of a hint than using all of your usual spots that never had the rib-hurting effect before. Benoit, on the other hand, made it clear that he was working the arm to set up a submision, which is much different than RVD hitting all of his usual stuff to set up a move he usually sells more than his opponent.

[Guest wolverine]

Keith gave it ****, but I wouldn't go that far. ***1/2. How bout you?

 

**1/2

[Guest Ripper]

But as I pointed out, each and every one of his offensive moves are focused on the ribs. The only thing separating it from being great psychology and just spots is that 1: His oppenents don't sell it and 2: The announcers don't mention it.

 

The last time I remember it being mentioned was in a match against the rock when Rhyno had Gored the Rock earlier. RVD went out and did his same offense, the same way, but Rock was selling it like he was breaking his ribs and Heyman and JR were talking about how he was setting him up for the frog splash and focusing on the ribs.

 

That is why announcers are so important to the sport and sadly the WWF annoucers rarely point out things that are important...

 

i miss Joey Styles and Cyrus

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

RVD breaking the crossface twice was what soured this match for me. At least the first time it made sense, as he used his free leg to drag them across to the ropes, but the second time was just ridiculous: he frees his arm from the leglock and then uses them to rip the hold off? Benoit should be winning cleanly with the CF every week to build him up as a top tier contender. I didn't like the stall session at the start much either.