The Draft

August 19, 2002

I brought up this topic in the same way I would bring up ideas like having a president for more than 4 years or electing one based on merit. They're not GOOD or LAWFUL or MY ideas, they're just interesting, because they're different.

Hey folks! I'm just throwing out a kind of different idea here, but wouldn't it be cool if we started importing slaves from Africa again? Think of how the free labor would benefit industry, and heck it worked for the romans and uh hey guys what's with all the black cocks forcing themselves into my HOMPH GLORP MMMF GODDAMNIT I WAS JUST THINKING OUT LOUD HURGHLMPH GLUB DIDN'T REALLY MEAN MMGHBLPTH OW OW OW SON OF A GLOMPH ULP SO UNFAIR HRMPH GLUBBL AND DELICIOUS HORF UF MMMMPTH SPUTTER

I do think that respect is a human right, why don't you?

Because respect is earned, it's not a right. Although I suppose if you don't merit much respect, telling yourself that you have some kind of natural entitlement to it nonetheless would be very comforting?

The reason I "folded" was because I didn't REALLY care about the fucking roman draft thing anyways.

I do care what people do, be it in person or in a message board.

...

Do you actually enjoy making people feel bad?

Yes.

February 22, 2003

I bumped this thread because as we head on into the future, does anyone think the draft may ever become real again? I mean if by the time we finish with Iraq, what if N.Korea starts shit? What if it happens as we're busy in Iraq?

I also really bumped this thread because it's certainly quite a read for some of the people who are newer to this board/folder. For anyone who missed the summer of 01, this is how the CE thread mostly went. It's also a clear case why pretty much anything goes here, since no one got banned as a result of this thread. It also contains the do's and don'ts of internet arguing.

I'll start with a Don't:

Don't get into a pointless argument with FK Teale. It's not worth it.

I know I enjoyed reliving the past, even though the event was bitter. It's a good read.

February 22, 2003

Romsfeld was on tv saying we can fight Iraq and North Korea at the same time and easily beat both.

February 22, 2003

Man, CE really sucked in '01 (I was here then). What ever happened to Marney and fk teale?

February 22, 2003

Marney moved on with life . . . I think Teale was still posting here when I first came around but I don't know if he left or what. I haven't seen him in a while.

February 22, 2003

Man, CE really sucked in '01 (I was here then). What ever happened to Marney and fk teale?

Hell if it did. Marney, Some Guy, Dr.Tom, and my favorite CE poster The MikeSC who was probably the best debater here.

February 22, 2003

This folder is like a parallel world to that time. I personally liked the earlier world, but not because there were more "conservative" debators.

Oh, and there won't be a draft. Next subject...

February 22, 2003

Hell if it did. Marney, Some Guy, Dr.Tom, and my favorite CE poster The MikeSC who was probably the best debater here.

I meant all the insults everyone would fling around. I liked Mike as well, just so you know. What happened to him? Anyone know?

February 22, 2003

More quality flaming. Fucker should post more, as it'd be a welcome change.

A draft? No fucking way. If the ghosts of Sparta and Athens rise to earth, possessing the world's leaders, thus restarting conscription, I've got dibs on the tank.

February 22, 2003

What was up with Marney's sig, anyways? She never struck me as a real religious person.

February 22, 2003

From what she told me on here, she isn't.

The sig is basically saying "You'll get yours, motherfucker."

She explained it on here once before to someone who mentioned it, although I have no idea what thread it was.

cawthon777 · February 22, 2003

Romsfeld was on tv saying we can fight Iraq and North Korea at the same time and easily beat both.

There won't be a draft. On the other hand, I don't know about the legitimacy of that claim.

The real question is - is North Korea worth going to war with? I'm all about taking Saddam out of power by any means necessary. But North Korea just seems to be the ignored little child who is doing everything in their power to get attention from the U.S.

"Oh oh, look at us United States! We have big bomb! We blow you up if you don't give us food and money. Give us food and money ... pwease "

February 22, 2003

They had a retired general talking about a two front war. He said it's very possible considering the size of the military. I know Romsfeld mentioned it but he didn't really go into detail about it.

North Korea really seems to just be out for attention. I think they are less dangerous than Iraq simply for the fact that they are up front about what they have. If they had real intentions for attacking someone wouldn't they be more likely to be sneaking around like Iraq?

February 22, 2003

Jesus fucking Christ, wake up. North Korea is easily more dangerous than Iraq. How hard is it to grasp this? No, they don't have missiles capable of hitting the US. But get this, they don't need to. They can destroy Seoul with the conventional artillery they have based along the Korean border alone. North Korea can hit all of the South as well as Japan with both nuclear and chemical weapons. They have a big army, hardly an efficient one, but big enough to ensure that there would be US casualties should they try and take them on. Just think for a second what happens to the world economy if Seoul and Tokyo get taken out and then try and claim that Iraq is more dangerous then North Korea. Why do you think Bush has strongly stressed that he wants to sort North Korea out with diplomacy? Its because he knows that it can't be engaged militarily without the massive risk of Asia becoming totally destabilised.

February 22, 2003

You seemed to completely miss the point of what I said.

Don't you think if they had serious plans to cause damage that they would announce to the world that they have nukes? Wouldn't they be sneaking around in the shadows like Iraq?

But with that said I'm for taking care of them anyway that gets the job done.

cawthon777 · February 22, 2003

Jesus fucking Christ, wake up. North Korea is easily more dangerous than Iraq. How hard is it to grasp this? No, they don't have missiles capable of hitting the US. But get this, they don't need to. They can destroy Seoul with the conventional artillery they have based along the Korean border alone. North Korea can hit all of the South as well as Japan with both nuclear and chemical weapons. They have a big army, hardly an efficient one, but big enough to ensure that there would be US casualties should they try and take them on. Just think for a second what happens to the world economy if Seoul and Tokyo get taken out and then try and claim that Iraq is more dangerous then North Korea. Why do you think Bush has strongly stressed that he wants to sort North Korea out with diplomacy? Its because he knows that it can't be engaged militarily without the massive risk of Asia becoming totally destabilised.

There's a big difference between capability and being stupid enough to do all that. North Korea wants help from the U.S. They won't get any if they go around launching missiles and blowing up allies - they know that and we know that. This is them wanting attention, nothing more.

February 22, 2003

I don't see a reason to reinstate it, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if it were, maybe as a rider to some new bill that's supposed to make us safer like the Homeland Fascism Act.

I'm glad this thread was going on while my computer was kaput. Eric knows what I mean.

February 22, 2003

There will be no draft unless it is absolutely necessarry. I.E. WWIII breaks out.

Kotz, if you look at the history of American Wars in the 20th century and you equate the draft to facsim then the Democrats must be facist, WWI much mostly drafted, WWII was 66%-75% drafted, Korea was heavily drafted, Vietnam about 25%-33% drafted. All those wars were started while a Democrat was running things. Persian Gulf, 0 drafted. (I did a paper on WWII and Vietman last semester and those are the draft numbers depending on where you look, I don't know WWI and Korea's numbers.)

The draft, as much as I hate the idea of slavery or indentured servitude is sometimes a necesarry evil. Although I like to take that stance, "that any war which you can't get enough volunteers to win, you deserve to lose," I can't make that as a blanket statement. I think WWI and WWII had to be won and there was realy no alternative, besides letting real Fascism conquer the world.

cawthon777 · February 22, 2003

Although there are points to be made on each side of the story, if I were leading troops into battle - I would much prefer to command people that actually wanted to be there. Soldiers that don't want to be there become a liability for everyone else.

February 22, 2003

There will be no draft unless it is absolutely necessarry. I.E. WWIII breaks out.

Kotz, if you look at the history of American Wars in the 20th century and you equate the draft to facsim then the Democrats must be facist, WWI much mostly drafted, WWII was 66%-75% drafted, Korea was heavily drafted, Vietnam about 25%-33% drafted. All those wars were started while a Democrat was running things. Persian Gulf, 0 drafted. (I did a paper on WWII and Vietman last semester and those are the draft numbers depending on where you look, I don't know WWI and Korea's numbers.)

The draft, as much as I hate the idea of slavery or indentured servitude is sometimes a necesarry evil. Although I like to take that stance, "that any war which you can't get enough volunteers to win, you deserve to lose," I can't make that as a blanket statement. I think WWI and WWII had to be won and there was realy no alternative, besides letting real Fascism conquer the world.

No, I wasn't saying the draft was fascism, I was saying that they could reactivate it as part of another Patriot Act or something. I call the Homeland Security Act the Homeland Fascist Act because it intrudes on us all in ways never heard of before, all in the name of security.

February 22, 2003

OK, fair enough.

The draft is totalitarian in nature though. It infringesd upon freedom. That's where I thought you were going with it. I was just trying to point out that the Draft isn't some right-wing idea.

cawthon777 · February 22, 2003

No, I wasn't saying the draft was fascism, I was saying that they could reactivate it as part of another Patriot Act or something. I call the Homeland Security Act the Homeland Fascist Act because it intrudes on us all in ways never heard of before, all in the name of security.

As I asked in another thread, after 9/11 - where do personal liberties end and personal security begin?

Until I see that the Patriot Act directly intrudes on my personal liberties, I don't have a problem with it. But the day that Ashcroft breaks down the door of my apartment and has me strip searched I'll have a stronger opinion on the matter.

February 22, 2003

Romsfeld was on tv saying we can fight Iraq and North Korea at the same time and easily beat both.

That's not just a Rumsfeld opinion, it's been a long-standing military tradition: to fight, and win, two separate wars in two different hemispheres.

February 22, 2003

Hell if it did. Marney, Some Guy, Dr.Tom, and my favorite CE poster The MikeSC who was probably the best debater here.

I meant all the insults everyone would fling around. I liked Mike as well, just so you know. What happened to him? Anyone know?

I can see you're point. But man could Marney hurl out the insults.

Mike said that he had a job and a girlfriend and didn't have time to post here. Too bad, we agreed on pretty much everything when it came to politics.

February 23, 2003

I doubt it will happen, but...

Imagine the amazing backlash if a draft was instituted.

Phew, that'd be a political nightmare.

cawthon777 · February 23, 2003

I doubt it will happen, but...

Imagine the amazing backlash if a draft was instituted.

Phew, that'd be a political nightmare.

Exactly. That's why it's brought up so often in the anti-war reasoning and why it will not happen.

February 23, 2003

Well, since I'm in kind of a little Renaissance, I'll be the good guy here:

<<<Once again, I'm not saying that Hussein isn't deserving of action. But Hussein never hurt our civilians nor did his army, it is our assumption under our most skilled informants (who are semi-skilled at best) that he lent support to the group that DID happen to do it. Now we can't seek out revenge on the man responsible so we go for the guy whom we suspect was helping him and, as a plus, we didn't like this guy in the first place.>>>

At this point, Bush is justifying this "War" (and, let's not call it a war --- this will last even less time than the Persian Gulf scrimmage) for a reason I utterly loathe:

To maintain the "legitimacy" of the U.N.

The U.N has passed --- what -- 17 resolutions against this guy?

Since we, honestly, have NO use for this joke of a body, this is a horrible justification.

But it seems laughable that a few countries in Europe (and, keep in mind, it is a FEW countries) say that we should seek int'l support for all of our actions --- yet we're simply doing this to try and hide that the U.N is slightly less relevant to the world than the old League of Nations.

<<<These are not the President's motives per se, they are the popular public opinion's motives and we happen to have a popular public opinion president (same as would have been with Gore-- I'm a radical, can you tell?). And I do not trust nor appreciate the popular opinion of the public. It's like this...

The individual=I can appreciate and respect

The people=Can go straight the fuck to hell>>>

I actually don't disagree too much here.

<<<War of neccessity plays a little more into the circumstances and motives to me. The minute Hussein shows outward hostility towards us, the moment an American is killed by his people or the moment he issues a direct threat to our governing officials, I say we go in and smack him around a bit, put him in a jaccuzi full of napalm(and fuck the bubblejets), strike a match, and have a big ole' "Iraqi dictators with ghey moustaches" bonfire. In fact, I'm for doing this at ANY time. But I don't think it has become particularly neccessary just recently and I don't think any harm nor foul will come of not doing it than will from doing it. This is merely my observation.>>>

Unlike N. Korea --- Hussein has shown a WILLINGNESS to use weapons of mass destruction(against the Kurds).

Let's say you have two dogs outside your house.

One is house-broken. One is not.

Which one do you let in your house?

<<<I do not care for our President's foreign policy nor did I his father's. In fact, foreign policy, for being one of the biggest money spending outlets for the last twenty yeatrs, has been handled rather haphazardly (starting with Reagan). And as so much money is being spent on foreign policy gone awry I can't agree that our biggest threat is Saddam Hussein. Or the Middle East. >>>

The Middle East is a HUGE problem because Muslim extremists are going to become an increasingly larger problem.

<<<Our greatest threats are right here at home. Always have been. Domestic issues that can be dealt with kill more people annually than anything the Middle East has done. Hunger, Medical Care, The pointlessly expensive war on fucking drugs.>>>

Hunger? You are aware that our "poor" also tend to be "fat", right?

Medical care? Well, you only have to have people agree to not sue the medical community for every tiny thing and it MIGHT get a little cheaper.

But, people won't change.

The war on drugs? WELL, seeing as how my recent personal life has turned out, I'm not nearly as opposed to the war as I used to be.

<<<I hate to sound inhumane but we over on this side of the ocean were fortunate enough and smart enough to pick up on heavy industry and as such our people MIGHT have more money, but we've earned it.

The Middle East, the Arab world, sure they are starving and oppressed and in most cases primitive; but far be it for us to assume that these countries cant civilize themselves without us guiding them along, after all, this country wasn't built by the morally adept and the socially elite. We came from rebellion. As do all countries. It's how socities evolve.>>>

You base this assumption upon what?

Would China or Japan have EVER approached modernity without western interference?

Western civilization is the APEX of human development --- and it's not like following our system would cause misery as compared to the current Middle East.

<<<Let The Middle East evolve is what we should have done, it's far too late now, we've done far too much to pull out of the region at this time. We are involved now to where our reputation could suffer. I often wonder what life would be like if we didn't but in with the Middle East back in '48-'49. I'm sure we'll never know.>>>

Nothing would've changed, honestly.

<<<We can't feed their hungry either, I hate to say this, but let nature run it's course, the hungry will starve and weak will die, the individual countries may kill each other off.>>>

But, let's face one FACT:

Every "famine" in recent history was caused by the gov't of the country, not "natural causes". Sometimes, the powerful have a moralistic NEED to do the right thing.

<<<One by one. Self-destructing. But such is life. And such is what is happening to all of us. To me and you. But at a slower pace. We are all self-destructing. And we can't save everyone. So let's save our own. Let's feed our hungry, treat our wounded, and care for our poor. Let's protect our citizens without assuming for them with drug legalities and such. We give more money to the hungry over there than we do here. More food there than here. While the little boy in Pakistan who hasn't eaten in four months might be very distantly related in the big picture, religious sense; the homeless guy who lives downtown is, logically, sharing some of your same blood, however small. >>>

The homeless guy here usually has severe mental problems that are the cause of his problems and there are numerous places for him to go for help.

Where can the poor kid in Pakistan go?

<<<We assume that people have no right to be hungry in this country of opportunity, have no right to be poor with all we provide them. With what our constitution provides them. What we assume they are provided. But in a third world country we are arrogant enough to think that their people can't endure without the help of OUR people.>>>

Their governments prevent it from happening.

<<<We feed and shelter them while scorning people in similar conditions in our country. Passing them off as unmotivated or some other shit.>>>

Many of them have SEVERE problems --- but there is a percentage of lazy bums out there.

I'd go further, but I honestly don't really get the point.

Nothin' personal.

February 23, 2003

Hell if it did. Marney, Some Guy, Dr.Tom, and my favorite CE poster The MikeSC who was probably the best debater here.

I meant all the insults everyone would fling around. I liked Mike as well, just so you know. What happened to him? Anyone know?

I can see you're point. But man could Marney hurl out the insults.

Mike said that he had a job and a girlfriend and didn't have time to post here. Too bad, we agreed on pretty much everything when it came to politics.>>>

Still have the job. Still hate the job.

Got rid of the girlfriend when I was awakened at her house two weeks ago by her twitching due to a cocaine overdose and her ex-boyfriend threatening to shoot me because he thought I called the cops on him for selling her the crap.

Figured that's a good time to simply extricate yourself from a rapidly deteriorating situation.

-=Mike

February 23, 2003

Sorry about your girlfriend, Mike. But welcome back.

February 23, 2003

Sorry about your girlfriend, Mike. But welcome back.

You and me both. Really loved her --- but she was going to either die on me or get me killed.

Glad to be back. I don't agree with you on much of anything --- but personal flaming just doesn't work.

-=Mike --- polite.

The Draft

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