EL DANDY~! Posted August 28, 2002 Report Posted August 28, 2002 I think everybody here is missing one giant point... Brock is not going to be a transitional champion. The whole point about Brock being champ is to show that he is the champion of the future. If he goes out there and loses to UT at the next PPV, then the WWE is really not doing anything with him. Imagine if Brock were to lose the title to someone like RVD. That would give both people a healthy image, but I really hope they do something like this. They should turn Brock face by absolutely mauling Heyman. If he gets a little bit over, have him and Angle go off about how their amateur wrestling careers are better than the others. Angle is such a heel that Brock could be built up as a better face. WM 19, here we come. It ain't rocket science, folks.
Guest Anglesault Posted August 28, 2002 Report Posted August 28, 2002 Not that they should give Brock a long title reign and just stubbornly WAIT for him to get over, BUT he should have a good, well-booked one so that when/if he improves in the future he'll have huge cred in the fans eyes Okay, what the fuck did Brock do that he deserves a better ttile reign than Angle and and Jericho? I guess I really do know that next week isn't a good idea, by I really do hope that Brock bombs SO badly that Vince has to crawl to Angle and beg his forgiveness for how badly he's been treated so he can rip the title off Brock.
Guest Ozymandias Posted August 29, 2002 Report Posted August 29, 2002 Okay, what the fuck did Brock do that he deserves a better ttile reign than Angle and and Jericho? Absolutely nothing. But just because Vince booked both of them like pussies is no reason that the same mistakes can and should be made with Brock. Both of them were crazy-over and their title reigns - arguably - actually hurt them. Hopefully instead of destroying an over-wrestler by giving him a horrible main-event push (Kurt, Y2J), the WWE can do the opposite and make a lasting super-star out of someone who isn't much over now. After all, he already HAS the title, might as well make the best of it and try to get him over since you've gone THIS far, no?
Guest NoCalMike Posted August 29, 2002 Report Posted August 29, 2002 The problem with a Lesnar face push, is he hasn't shown he can get over with mic skills and in WWE you NEED to be entertaining on the mic it seems. He just barely is over a tad bit as a heel, and he doesn't do anything spectacular to show he can get over as a face.
Guest Anglesault Posted August 29, 2002 Report Posted August 29, 2002 Okay, what the fuck did Brock do that he deserves a better ttile reign than Angle and and Jericho? Absolutely nothing. But just because Vince booked both of them like pussies is no reason that the same mistakes can and should be made with Brock. Both of them were crazy-over and their title reigns - arguably - actually hurt them. Hopefully instead of destroying an over-wrestler by giving him a horrible main-event push (Kurt, Y2J), the WWE can do the opposite and make a lasting super-star out of someone who isn't much over now. After all, he already HAS the title, might as well make the best of it and try to get him over since you've gone THIS far, no? Nah, I would rather Brock, who has done nothing to earn the title, bomb badly.
Guest BaldFish Posted August 29, 2002 Report Posted August 29, 2002 Brock hasn't had a great match yet, and plus the guy doesn't get the kind of reaction you need to be World Champ. I think you're marking out a bit too much here. The belt is not really a recognition that you are the absolute best--that is total kayfabe. The belt is a way to get people over. People will tune in to see Rocky whether he's champ or not--and so, the heavy usage of The Rock will draw. HHH didn't draw worth beans as champ in the beginning--the belt was just another thing he used to get himself over. The belt is just a plot device. Remember that.
Guest creativename Posted August 29, 2002 Report Posted August 29, 2002 Quick example from last week: RVD's comments on how he shouldn't be "too stiff" for his match. Only smarks would get this as a reference to complaints about him being stiff. I actually think he meant he wanted to be "loose" for the Benoit match, meaning his muscles weren't to stiff. This response is a little late, but anyways... He said "I don't want to be stiff for my match...well, not too stiff." From the way that he said it and his facial expressions, this line clearly had a double entendre.
Guest Chuck Woolery Posted August 29, 2002 Report Posted August 29, 2002 To throw in my two cents... Until last night, I totally agreed with AS. But I was talking to my mark friend, and he said "Brock Lesnar's doing wicked good right now, man. I don't think anyone can beat him." What they need to do now is run with that. Let Brock beat UT at Unforgiven, Hogan in a rematch at No Mercy, and, for argument's sake, Benoit at Survivor Series. Then, at Armageddon, give Kurt Angle the strap. Then, you can have Van Dam win the Rumble and build to Wrestlemania XIX. - Mike Van Siclen.
Guest Zero_Cool Posted August 29, 2002 Report Posted August 29, 2002 MVS has a good idea there. Well, if in a couple months, if Lesnar isn't over much, WWE could just go the HHH route and make him bleed...and they would need to make him retire a legend legit. The only guy who could bleed vast amounts of blood with Brock and then be retired by him, is Undertaker (due to him being old and worn down, really)...and I have a feeling that that is not going to happen.
Guest bps "The Truth" 21 Posted August 29, 2002 Report Posted August 29, 2002 "Brock Lesnar's doing wicked good right now, man. I don't think anyone can beat him." This is what every single mark has to say about every single champion. Period. Always has been, always will be. Like the idiot in the chat who argued that HHH was the greatest wrestler EVER because he was the WWE champion...so he had to be the best
Guest Anglesault Posted August 29, 2002 Report Posted August 29, 2002 MVS has a good idea there. Well, if in a couple months, if Lesnar isn't over much, WWE could just go the HHH route and make him bleed...and they would need to make him retire a legend legit. The only guy who could bleed vast amounts of blood with Brock and then be retired by him, is Undertaker (due to him being old and worn down, really)...and I have a feeling that that is not going to happen. OOOH OOOH I have a better idea! In a few months (Read: By the PPV), if Lesnar isn't over enough, mercy kill the run, fire Lesnar, and never utter the words "Brock lesnar: WWE Champion" EVER again!
Guest Dmann2000 Posted August 29, 2002 Report Posted August 29, 2002 I think the challenge is to find a way to make things work with the guy you hate the most, because if you can make it work with him, you can do it with anybody.
Guest Dmann2000 Posted August 29, 2002 Report Posted August 29, 2002 OOOH OOOH I have a better idea! In a few months (Read: By the PPV), if Lesnar isn't over enough, mercy kill the run, fire Lesnar, and never utter the words "Brock lesnar: WWE Champion" EVER again! Geez what did Brock do to you, Run over your puppy. And donm't say "takes up TV time, isn't over and has poor matches" as an aswer cause that still ain't good enough for the anger that you and other guys on this board direct at certain wrestlers. I mean I bet none of you guys have ever met HHH. I don't get angry with people I work with, why should I waste my emotions on guys that I have NO connection with other than a couple of hours on my TV.
Guest creativename Posted August 29, 2002 Report Posted August 29, 2002 "Brock Lesnar's doing wicked good right now, man. I don't think anyone can beat him." This is what every single mark has to say about every single champion. Period. Always has been, always will be. Obvious counter-example, Jericho during his run as the 1st ever undisputed chamion--which actually has a legitimate argument for most impressive title win ever, especially since he went over Austin and Rock in the same night (that fact should be legendary, but I bet very few marks remember it). Most marks probably thought of Jericho as a complete fluke. Even Hogan's run as champion was very probably very unimpressive to the average mark, as he was booked as an old guy who needed interference in every match to win (heck, he couldn't even beat Jericho clean!). I also think that many marks will think that their favorite main eventer is the best, even if he isn't champion.
Guest Anglesault Posted August 29, 2002 Report Posted August 29, 2002 has a legitimate argument for most impressive title win ever, especially since he went over Austin and Rock in the same night (that fact should be legendary, but I bet very few marks remember it). Believe it or not, JR still pimps that... Geez what did Brock do to you, Run over your puppy. And donm't say "takes up TV time, isn't over and has poor matches" as an aswer He's on my TV, the fans don't care, and his matches suck. There, I didn't say it. How about the fact that he is world champion despite not doing ANYTHING to earn it and at least SIX people deserve it more than him?
Guest nikowwf Posted August 29, 2002 Report Posted August 29, 2002 If they were to put Kurt Angle over Brock tommorrow in the best 100% possible way it would mean nothing because it would just be seen as Brock being another nothing champ. If Undertaker beats Brock and Angle kills Undertaker, it would also mean nothing because both are just transitional champs. If Brock holds the title for a while and looks like a monster, and Angle then crushes him (after Angle is given the proper 6 month toward wrestlemania push he needs and deserves) he will look a world beater and be a very strong champ. I know they screwed up Angle's push before. It makes it even more important they push him good now. He is also my favorite wrestler, but I don't want him to get the title, not get the reaction, and have it pulled off him like they did last year. Niko
Guest creativename Posted August 29, 2002 Report Posted August 29, 2002 has a legitimate argument for most impressive title win ever, especially since he went over Austin and Rock in the same night (that fact should be legendary, but I bet very few marks remember it). Believe it or not, JR still pimps that... He pimped it at SummerSlam in Flair Jericho match I think, but that was the first mention of it in like 5 months. You would that that Jericho himself, with his "arrogant, King of the World" gimmick would shove down the fans' throats, every month or so at least.
Guest Anglesault Posted August 29, 2002 Report Posted August 29, 2002 If they were to put Kurt Angle over Brock tommorrow in the best 100% possible way it would mean nothing because it would just be seen as Brock being another nothing champ. If Undertaker beats Brock and Angle kills Undertaker, it would also mean nothing because both are just transitional champs. If Brock holds the title for a while and looks like a monster, and Angle then crushes him (after Angle is given the proper 6 month toward wrestlemania push he needs and deserves) he will look a world beater and be a very strong champ. I know they screwed up Angle's push before. It makes it even more important they push him good now. He is also my favorite wrestler, but I don't want him to get the title, not get the reaction, and have it pulled off him like they did last year. Niko I'm sorry, I'm just not willing to let an unover, shitty wrestler hold the world title for eight months (while Angle, RVD, Jericho, Booker Benoit and Eddy fart around) for the soul purpose of making said unover, shitty wrestler look dominant
Guest Chuck Woolery Posted August 29, 2002 Report Posted August 29, 2002 I'm sorry, I'm just not willing to let an unover, shitty wrestler hold the world title for eight months while Angle, RVD, Jericho, Booker Benoit and Eddy fart around for the soul purpose of making said unover, shitty wrestler look dominant Well, AS... why not have Brock hold it, like I said, until Survivor Series (after an Undertaker and Hogan match, which I realize will bore the shit out of you but it makes Brock look more credible... somehow.) Then, Angle and Brock have a well built-up match (please don't call that wishful thinking) over who the better amateur wrestler is, how Angle has never faced Brock (and make sure that Angle never faces Brock at all), etc. Then, Angle goes over Brock clean after debuting his new finisher, a Ferris Wheel suplex (the Angleplex or Olympicplex or something). Let Angle hold it until Wrestlemania, where he meets the winner of the Royal Rumble, RVD, in a face/tween match for the World title. Or don't turn Angle, sacrifice the SS buyrate in hopes of a huge WM one. Or something like that.
Guest Anglesault Posted August 29, 2002 Report Posted August 29, 2002 I'm sorry, I'm just not willing to let an unover, shitty wrestler hold the world title for eight months while Angle, RVD, Jericho, Booker Benoit and Eddy fart around for the soul purpose of making said unover, shitty wrestler look dominant Well, AS... why not have Brock hold it, like I said, until Survivor Series (after an Undertaker and Hogan match, which I realize will bore the shit out of you but it makes Brock look more credible... somehow.) Then, Angle and Brock have a well built-up match (please don't call that wishful thinking) over who the better amateur wrestler is, how Angle has never faced Brock (and make sure that Angle never faces Brock at all), etc. Then, Angle goes over Brock clean after debuting his new finisher, a Ferris Wheel suplex (the Angleplex or Olympicplex or something). Let Angle hold it until Wrestlemania, where he meets the winner of the Royal Rumble, RVD, in a face/tween match for the World title. Or don't turn Angle, sacrifice the SS buyrate in hopes of a huge WM one. Or something like that. Or, we could add Angle into a three way at Unforgiven, have him pin *Not Brock* (Is this a spoiler thread?) And then go on as a domiant champ. As for Brock, I don't know, Rikishi or something.
Guest CanadianChick Posted August 29, 2002 Report Posted August 29, 2002 (Is this a spoiler thread?) No, its not.
Guest The Flying Dutchman Posted August 29, 2002 Report Posted August 29, 2002 Ahem... How about trying to have an idea on how to GET BROCK OVER, rather than bitch about the fact that he isn't?
Guest FeArHaVoC Posted August 29, 2002 Report Posted August 29, 2002 They should have had an idea how to get Brock over before pushing him and before sticking the belt on him.
Guest Anglesault Posted August 29, 2002 Report Posted August 29, 2002 Ahem... How about trying to have an idea on how to GET BROCK OVER, rather than bitch about the fact that he isn't? Too late. He already has the belt. I'm all for getting him over before he has the ttile. But when he as the title and isn't unover, get it off him. (See Angle, Kurt: Fall 2001)
Guest The Flying Dutchman Posted August 29, 2002 Report Posted August 29, 2002 Precedent: HHH gets belt. Isn't over. Gets over with help from Cactus Jack feud.
Guest FeArHaVoC Posted August 29, 2002 Report Posted August 29, 2002 Triple H was over. He just wasn't 100% believable as being one of the top guys. Foley helped him. There is a difference.
Guest Brian Posted August 30, 2002 Report Posted August 30, 2002 There's no point in really arguing this anymore. They're going to keep the strap on Lesnar. The minute he got past that first week of TV following Vengeance everyone should have just accepted that he was going to win the title and there was no other way to go. They're going to keep the title on him and make him into their monster. They're not taking the title off him anytime soon. Jericho, who usually I would defend has gotten exceptionally lazy and complacent in the last few months similar to after the X-Pac feud. His whiny promos are generic. His matches have been walk-throughs. Maybe it's our fault; he really started slowing down within the last few months. HHH also married the bosses daughter. "How about trying to have an idea on how to GET BROCK OVER, rather than bitch about the fact that he isn't?" Productivity? On this forum? Hah!
Guest RicFlairGlory Posted August 30, 2002 Report Posted August 30, 2002 Precedent: HHH gets belt. Isn't over. Gets over with help from Cactus Jack feud. He was over, but he was not cemented as a viable main eventer. After facing Foley, he proved not only that he was over, but that he had the SKILLS as well to hold the belt. He got his position based on being over, and cemented it with great matches. How it should be.
Guest Angle-plex Posted August 30, 2002 Report Posted August 30, 2002 They should give Brock the "Vader" treatment. That would get him over. For example, I think that if he beat The Rock clean at SummerSlam (Heyman did interfere a little), and basically no-sold everything The Rock through at him, it would have helped his carreer much more. ::SMACKDOWN SPOILER:: For Unfogiven, since Brock is facing Taker, I'd have Brock kick Taker's ass the whole match. Then, maybe at the end, Benoit and Angle could run out to help Taker. Brock could kick all 3 of their asses, and that would probably get him over to. ::END SPOILER:: Remember, that's not what I WANT to happen, it's just what would help Lesnar get over.
Guest Anglesault Posted August 30, 2002 Report Posted August 30, 2002 It's not worth it. If you need to sacrifice Angle and benoit to get Brock over, it's not worth it.
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