"Nature Boy" Ric Flair

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

Oops I wasn't paying attention to who said it......sorry

[Guest CanadianChick]

vs. Owen Hart, SummerSlam '97-no finish= not a great match

w/ Shawn Michaels vs. Owen & Bulldog, RAW '97= don't remember form the top of my head

w/ HHH vs. Chris Benoit and Chris Jericho, RAW '01=good tag match, not a great mach

vs. Kurt Angle, SummerSlam '00

vs. Chris Benoit, RAW '

vs. Kurt Angle, RAW '01-both Benoit and Angle are by far the best workers in WWE right now and can carry any one to a good match.

vs. The Rock, WrestleMania X-7- all Rock matches were ovewrrated because of brawlingincrowd, fake finishes, and hot crowd (like Rock vs.Hogan)

vs. Shawn Michaels, KOR '97-Average match,overrated. Never cliqued.

vs. Dude Love, Over The Edge '98-great match,I'llagree.

vs. The Rock, Backlash '99-see above

vs. KOR '01, vs. Chris Benoit and Chris Jericho-Carried by the Chris's

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

This is bullshit.

 

I have gone out of my way for nearly a year on various incarnations of this messageboard...

 

trying to make DAMN SURE that I singlehandedly pushed RVD to the spot of most overrated wrestler of all time.

 

So...Even if you wanted to start an argument for Flair...

 

the line starts behind...

 

Rob...Van...Dam

 

Dammit

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

I don't get it. Do you like RVD or not?

[Guest snowfan]

I don't get it. Do you like RVD or not?

about as much as I dig Shane douglas.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

No I meant that for Bps

 

I just don't get why people don't like RVD. He's fun to watch, which there isn't an abundance of lately. I can understand saying he's overrated, but to outright hate the guy is kinda odd.

[Guest snowfan]

No I meant that for Bps

me too if I remember his posts correctly....

[Guest godthedog]

ok, here's a review of wrestlewar from my triple h dvd rant. while i don't think its *****, i think its one of the 5 greatest greatest matches i've ever seen. hope this helps. if you still need clarification, ask me specific stuff & i'll be glad to tell you why i think it's fucking amazing.

 

Ric Flair v. Ricky Steamboat, Wrestlewar '89

 

Now we're talking. There's no way to properly set this up, so I'll just get straight to the match. First lockup goes nowhere. Second lockup sees Steamboat get an armdrag in. Flair complains about a hair pull to buy some time, and they lock up again. This leads to Flair getting a shoulder block in, but Steamboat gets back the advantage with a hiptoss. Flair goes right back at him, and gets armdragged again. Steamboat starts working on the arm, Flair seems to know what this means (i.e., setting up for the double-arm chickenwing which Flair submitted to at their last televised match) and quickly gets to the corner for a break. Flair tries to punk Steamboat out, but Steamboat slaps the crap out of him. They take their time locking up again, and Flair gets a cheapshot in the corner. Then we get our first chop of many tonight, and oh my God is it loud. Flair chops again and punches Steamboat in the face, but Steamboat comes back with some nice, loud chops of his own. Flair keeps chopping and Steamboat keeps chopping back (it's just beautiful to see Steamboat oversell Flair's chops then come right back with his own chops) and eventually gets the better of Flair, literally chopping him from one end of the ring to the other. Flair goes outside and takes a breather. We lock up again and Flair gets a headlock, which Steamboat counters into an overhead wristlock, then into the armbar again. We kill some more time like this, with Flair doing everything to get away from Steamboat and get back on the offensive and Steamboat outsmarting him and going right back to the arm. Flair eventually gets another break in the corner and nails Steamboat in the face with three elbows in a row. He tries to chop Steamboat down, but Steamboat has the chest of steel and fights back, chopping Flair right across the ring again. We get a Flair flop, the crowd goes nuts, and Steamboat slaps on the armbar again, into a hammerlock. Flair finally finds a good counter and just picks Steamboat up, setting him kindly on the top rope. He fakes a clean break then runs to Steamboat, but Steamboat has it scouted, jumping over Flair and chopping him, then hiptossing him, THEN dropkicking him right to the outside. All in one fast, fluid sequence. We're about ten minutes in, and Flair has yet to get any significant offense in. He takes some time to recover then comes back in (taking the time to sell the arm), and calls for a test of strength. Ricky goes for it like a dumbass, and Flair cheapshots him, but he still can't gain control of the match as Steamboat armdrags him yet again and slaps on the armbar again. Flair gets up and pushes him off the ropes, but Steamboat comes right back with a shoulder block. He goes to the ropes again, which seemingly gives Flair the opportunity to finally take control of the match with a hip toss. Ricky does a total oversell, and the crowd doesn't like it (the fact that Flair's in control, I mean; I don't think they have a problem with Steamboat's selling). Flair starts acting cocky and goes for an elbow, but Steamboat still has enough in him to dodge it. Flair goes after him again, but Steamboat gives him ANOTHER armdrag, into the armbar again. I think that's the only time I've seen a heel make a false comeback. Flair gets the heel comeback for real by forcing a break in the corner and delivering some nasty shoulder thrusts. He proceeds to generally beat Steamboat across the ring with chops and punches. These guys have every aspect of their craft down perfectly, right down to the nuances of pacing: Steamboat, the babyface, gets the crowd to root for him by pulling off his moves in rapid succession, naturally exciting them; Flair lays in his shots methodically and deliberately takes the air out of the crowd. You can't watch this match and NOT root for Steamboat. Anyway: Steamboat starts fighting back with chops, but Flair avoids another toe-to-toe fight (which he knows he can't win by now) and rakes the eyes. He gets a shoulder block in then casually throws Steamboat out to the floor, but Steamboat lands on his feet and runs right back in, getting all his momentum back with the classic ten punches in the corner. Flair flip in the corner, and Steamboat gets another shoulder block in. He tries it again, but Flair sees it coming and throws Steamboat to the outside. See, he did it quickly enough so that Steamboat couldn't anticipate it, so this time he didn't land on his feet. Flair follows him out and beats on him some more, chopping him right over the railing into the crowd. He gets a chair and argues with the ref (which goes nowhere). Steamboat uses the time to try mounting another comeback, but Flair cuts it off before it happens with another chop and an elbow to the throat. Flair waits out the count inside, then decides to beat Steamboat up on the outside some more, but Steamboat has recovered enough to fight back and suckers Flair into another chopfest. Flair, of course, loses it, then starts running from the champion back into the ring. Steamboat gets on the ropes and does his famous judo chop, and we get another Flair flop. Steamboat picks Flair up and slams his face into the mat again and throws him to the corner for another Flair flip. This time Flair gets enough momentum to get over the turnbuckle on to the apron, and he goes running for the other turnbuckle, but Steamboat chops him right down. He gets a snapmare in and puts Flair in the armbar again (it actually kind of looked like Steamboat blanked out and didn't know what to do). And I guess at this point he doesn't know what to do, cause then he just does another shoulder block. He goes to the ropes and tries for what looks like a high cross body, but Flair ducks it and Steamboat goes right over the top to the floor again. That took the air out of the crowd REAL quick.. Flair pulls Steamboat back in and does a kneedrop into his face. Steamboat proceeds to get the shit chopped out of him, but still refuses to stay down. That's something you just don't see enough of, especially in the WWF: guys who are always trying to come back when they're on the defensive. In most matches I see, the guy doesn't look like he's trying to mount any offense until he actually gets that offense in and takes control of the match. Each of these guys is CONSTANTLY trying to actually come back and win, and it makes the match infinitely more tense.

 

Flair finally gets Steamboat down with a punch long enough to keep him down with a choke. And as any Flair fan knows, he won't just give you choking: he'll also give you arguing with the fans! Steamboat comes back with...

 

wait for it...

 

more skin-stinging chops! Flair chops back, and this time wins because Steamboat is weakened enough that there's no force left behind his blows. Flair weakens him even more with a belly-to-back suplex, which I believe is our first true near-fall in this match. He works the pin and drops another knee, taking his time. Steamboat is so hurt right now he can't even stand, much less fight back. A double arm suplex gets another two count. Flair drops a hard elbow for another two count and argues with the ref. He lays in more chops and sends Steamboat to the ropes. Steamboat tries to mount some kind of offense with...some kind of aerial maneuver, I don't know what. But that's not the point, the point is that Flair catches him in midair and drops him throat-first down on the ropes. Crowd has a heart attack. Flair works the pin and chokes some more. Steamboat is his bitch right now...or only so it seems, as he's got just enough fight left in him to lay in a good chop. Flair doesn't like this at all and drags Steamboat to the outside, suplexing him on to the floor. Steamboat barely makes the count back in and Flair goes for another suplex, but Steamboat goes behind and gets a cradle in. The crowd completely buys that as the finish, but it only gets a two count. Flair is shocked that Steamboat has anything left in him, and Steamboat sees this split second of shock as his opportunity: quick as lightning he lays in more chops and sends Flair to the ropes, but it's all for naught as they both go tumbling to the floor. Flair recovers first and throws Steamboat in...then he goes to the top rope. Shit. I was really hoping they could go through this match without that spot, because it was going so great without it. Anyway, you know the drill, and here comes Ricky's big comeback. He lays in yet more chops, throws him to the corner, and back body drops him. Flair is panicking now, he knows he has to cut Steamboat off, so he does what he always does: begs off and lays in a cheap shot. But it can't keep Steamboat down, as he flips out of a belly-to-back suplex and rolls Flair up for a 2 count. Interesting footnote: I had to pause the match to write the play-by-play down (as I often do), and something I normally wouldn't have noticed is Flair's "Oh, shit!" expression when he's kicking out, it's priceless. Flair quickly rakes the eyes and tries a suplex, but Steamboat...somehow (I don't know how because there was no struggle) reverses, and hoists Flair on the top rope. These guys then pull off the single most beautiful superplex I have ever seen in my life. Steamboat goes for the double arm chicken wing and the crowd goes nuts, but Flair barely gets the ropes before Steamboat can get it in. Steamboat goes up top and gets another Judo chop. Flair is just gone, he has no idea what's going on. Steamboat goes up top again for the flying body press but Flair inadvertently staggers to the ropes, causing Steamboat to lose his balance and come crashing to the floor. And he blows his knee out on the landing. One guess where this is going. He tries to tough it out and climb back in, but Flair kicks the knee and suplexes him. Steamboat's absolutely helpless, just clutching at his leg and screaming in pain. This thing is over, Flair moves the leg and Steamboat screams. And we've got a figure four, but Steamboat won't submit. He tries to block out the pain and get to the ropes, but they're literally about an inch out of his reach. Flair keeps wrenching it in, but Steamboat eventually makes the ropes. Flair's unfazed: he murders the knee and just taunts him, holding his leg up. Steamboat tries to fight back with chops, but they're having absolutely no effect. So he changes his strategy and nails Flair in the head with an enzuigiri. He now has control and tries a body slam, but Flair holds on to the leg and cradles him for the pin. Crowd is in shock, and so is Flair.

 

An almost-perfect match, this shit was so smooth it's not even funny. Flair and Steamboat knew exactly when to trade off on offense, and exactly how to build up the ante throughout the match. Hardly any flashy moves and not a lot of big spots, but it all flowed together so flawlessly. Only 2 things I saw wrong with it: Steamboat hurting his knee was a bit of a contrivance (as is any Flair match where his opponent hurts his knee), and the ending psychologically could've made more sense: Shouldn't Steamboat have learned from the 2/3 falls match NOT to pick Flair up when his knee is blown? Aside from that, a classic, classic, CLASSIC match. In the future of wrestling, I doubt that more than five matches will EVER top this one. ****3/4

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

Then why does Bps have RVD in his banner?

[Guest snowfan]

Then why does Bps have RVD in his banner?

I think because he understands that just because a guy is a spot artist doesn't mean you hold him down if he can draw. That is HGH's worst *crime* in my book. I could be wrong as I am in a haze right now.

 

Hopefully BPS will elaborate.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Oh I love RVD.

 

He's my favorite wrestler, and the most entertaining thing going today, IMO.

 

However, if we are going to talk about workrate then I think RVD is tremendously overrated.

 

As much as my blindly loyal RVD fandom goes...I have never once said that RVD was a very good wrestler or that I'd ever even seen him in a match I'd call ****.

 

However, he has more intangibles than anyone else.

 

And I think some people underrate him at the same time many overrate him.

 

That is why I like RVD...there's just no one else quite like him

[Guest bob_barron]

I like RVD a lot.

 

His matches always manage to entertain me and his feud with Eddy was the shit.

 

I think the two ladder matches they had and the Judgement Day match could easily be my top three for the yr

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

Oh okay. Thanks for clearing that up.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

I'm sorry I got us off topic.

 

Dog's explanation of Flair/Steamboat is pretty good.

[Guest bob_barron]

It's cool LPYC.

 

I've seen the last two matches in the trilogy of 89 and they just blew me away.

[Guest RazorxEDGE]

godthedog...how can a match that you rank in the "Top 5 of All Time" be less than *****??

 

That would mean that there have only been 4 ****** matches ever!

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

Do the top 5 matches of all time all have to be 5*? Some matches have more of an impact on wrestling than another. Not every 5* match made that much of a difference in wrestling.

[Guest RazorxEDGE]

You're right. For example, La Parka's epic encounter with EL DANDY~!

[Guest godthedog]

godthedog...how can a match that you rank in the "Top 5 of All Time" be less than *****??

 

That would mean that there have only been 4 ****** matches ever!

and i've only seen 3 matches i'd give five stars to. if there's anything in the match that hinders my enjoyment of it, it don't get the full rating.

[Guest BigPoppaKev]

I don't think that Flair is overrated really. I mean he revolutionized the sport. If it wasn't for him people like HBK, Jericho, Benoit and others may not have been accepted the way they are. You have to remember Flair is like 6'0 or somthing. If it wasn't for him we may be seeing Big Show v.s UT as our main program right now. And for that sole reason Flair is god and nevermind his awesome matches.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

vs. KOR '01, vs. Chris Benoit and Chris Jericho-Carried by the Chris's

 

Okay, childish crap aside, how can you say the Chrises carried that match? Hell, Jericho spent a shitload of time on the floor outside because he banged his head on the apron when Benoit suplexed him out early on in the match. If anything, Austin and Benoit carried Jericho in that match.

[Guest Anglesault]

Kotr 01 was from Jericho's SUMMER FROM HELL~! where he basically blew every spot he tried, and Benoit was injured. Give Austin credit.

[Guest CanadianChick]

Okay, I see where you guys are coming from. I wasn't really thinking when I wrote that. But I didn't really think that the match was that great. BUt I'll give credit where credit is due for that good match to Austin, but I think think that Benoit was the star of the match...

 

 

And I stand on the rest of my post.

[Guest Mad the Swine]

If anybody still wants to actually argue about Flair's greatness...

 

Flair's most fantastic period was about 1977-85. After 1985, he got some pretty crappy opponents. His main feuds were Rhodes, Garvin, and Luger until Steamer came back in 1989.

 

Another issue that's overlooked is Flair's schedule. He was working about an average of 350 shows per year in the 1980s. You're not going to be your freshest with that many shows in every territory from the Pacific Northwest to Florida, not to mention doing Portland, Oregon, one night and Miami, Florida, the next.

 

Then, you add in the injuries. Match records indicate that Flair didn't miss a show because of injuries from 1979 until late 1990. Somewhere in the middle of that run, Flair cracked a disc in his neck. Despite having problems lifting his arm, he continued to wrestle the same stiff who injured him (who has never been named) around the loop. Then you throw in that his body is already flawed from the broken back.

 

Everybody is also assuming dates on when Flair had the book.

 

He was main booker from June 1989 until March 1990 and again from January 1994 until July 1995 (although Hogan got control of the upper portion of the card in July 1994, leaving Flair only to book to lower half).

 

Gee, during Flair's first reign, Muta came in, Sting was elevated to world title status and supposed to have the belt if not for injury, the Steiners were paired, and Brian Pillman made his first big splash. During the second, Flair managed to get ALEX WRIGHT over big time and apparently saw some future in the tag team of Harlem Heat. Whether or not Mick Foley believes it, he was in the upper portion of the card before he was injured.

[Guest RazorxEDGE]

Best argument I've heard yet.

[Guest godthedog]

that's not too difficult, considering there have only been about 4 arguments for flair's greatness in the entire thread.

[Guest creativename]

that's not too difficult, considering there have only been about 4 arguments for flair's greatness in the entire thread.

Flair is most definitely guilty for politicking, but the guy had a decent eye for talent.

 

He's the one that thought that Austin was "the next big thing" and wanted to push the Hollywood Blondes by jobbing to them, but WCW management nixed the idea.

 

So we know that Flair was not 100% self-centered, even if he did act selfishly at times. And often, the politicking he did was not as damaging as the politicking of others. Obviously he was NOWHERE NEAR the level of Dusty/Nash/HHH in terms of the level of chaos left in the wake of his politicking. He's not even in Hogan's league.

 

And as for his workrate, it was quite impressive. "Greatest ever" is obviously very subjective, but concensus is a powerful force, and he does have that going for him when people discuss NA wrestlers. Flair is certainly up there in terms of the quantity/quality mix. If you're going to say that Flair isn't #1, that's OK, but you have to add in the disclaimer that it's a close call.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Flair had plenty of capable opponents after '85. Windham, Funk, and Luger, who I still maintain was a good worker in his own right durring '87-89.

 

There have been better wrestlers than Flair. There haven't been many, though. Some of his work is indeed overrated, but that doesn't nullify the greatness of his best matches, which are as close to perfect as nearly anything else in North America gets.

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

A question: Does someone being a great worker make the politicing any less worse?

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Despite this thread being doomed from the start, I was under the impression that "overrated in the ring" and "a politician backstage" were two different things, and don't really have much to do with each other in a debate such as this.