"Nature Boy" Ric Flair

[Guest Dames Edna]

Since Flair is overated to some? Who could be considered the greatest of all-time? I see some people think Bret Hart - but what about Dynamite, Benoit, Steamboat, Guerrero - all of which have had awesome matches and no real stinkers

 

I don't think Flair is overated. His matches tell great stories, and could keep the crowd interested. He had a fine grasp of the wrestling aspect. His routine looked credible and believable. It wasn't power move after power move. It was a string technical maneuvers that were realistic.

 

I think Flair's style has become outdated today though. Now moves are all about glitz and glamour. Rob Van Dam is all about this. His problem? His highspots either hit and look awesome, or they miss and look like total complete shit. Another example is the TNA X-Division. It is exciting to watch, but the wrestling aspect isn't there. Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoy these matches, but they are just examples of Flair's style becoming outdated.

 

Wrestlers like RVD, Mysterio, Low Ki are heralded as Malenko and Flair having become stale. Its the way it is, its just up to us as the viewer to decide what we like.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

First off, Misterio is way above the Low Ki's and Rob Van Dam's of the world. Misterio had what is, in my mind, the best North American match of the '90's with Eddy Guererro at Holloween Havok '97. I liked that more than any Flair/Steamboat match, or any match Bret Hart has ever wrestled in. Yes, Eddy Guererro did a lot to help the match, but Rey pulled his weight just fine. Knowing when to sell, build drama, and when to make his comebacks, taking the openings that Eddy gave him, was an example of how awesome Misterio could be. He's WAY above all the current indy guys (save a few) who do lots of flashy stuff with no idea how to hold it all together (Chris Daniels, anyone?).

 

Guererro deserves to be on the list, and so does Benoit, but they're not in the top ten, I don't think. Nope, names like Tsuruta, Funk, Hokuto, Beyer, Yakota, and Kawada would be likely names to bring up as challengers to Flair, and the best of all time. However, I personally haven't seen enough of any of them to trully justify that, but from what I have seen, I think it's entirely possible that any of them could be better than him. Flair deserves to be remembered as one of the greats, it's just that a lot of people cupiously overrate his matches, and are a little too quick to slap on "greatest of all time" without considering things properly.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

RickyChosyu, since this is the WWE folder, we can probably assume that we are talking about North America only. I am interested in who would be your top ten North American wrestlers of all time.

[Guest snowfan]

RickyChosyu, since this is the WWE folder, we can probably assume that we are talking about North America only. I am interested in who would be your top ten North American wrestlers.

You noticed that too?

[Guest Redhawk]

All I have to say is that when I was around 8 or 9 years old, Flair was no where near the greatest wrestler/worker out there. To me in my mark days, Ric Flair was just BORING. It seemed like he'd get his ass beat from pillar to post all match, then hit the guy in the nuts or something and keep the belt.

 

I mean when you think about it, almost all of Flair's trademark spots are bumps (Flair Flop, Flair Flip, Get Tossed off the Top Rope, etc.) rather than moves (Figure 4, Chop).

 

It wasn't until I became a "smark" and the word "psychology" became part of my vocabulary that I started to see how good Flair was/is. But that makes me think; Am I -- and the rest of smarks -- just praising Flair because that's what the Smark Code says? If he was so great, why did I think he was so boring when I was little?

 

For my money, the top 5 wrestlers/workers I've ever seen are (somewhat in order)...

 

1. Shawn Michaels

2. Steve Austin

3. Kurt Angle

4. Eddie Guerrero

5. Bret Hart/The Rock

 

Why? Because aside from all of the technical/psychological stuff, they're EXCITING performers. And isn't that the whole point.

[Guest Brian]

Knowing people who grew up in the southeast and were wrestling fans, they knew Flair was good and they'd have rather have seen him than the WWF at the time.

 

I never found Hart to be overly exciting outside of a few key matches before I got on the internet. I've always preferred Owen even though Bret was a better worker.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

So we're talking about how FLAIR is the most overrated wrestler ever?

 

Wow...I think I've seen it all.

[Guest FlairsJigglyManTits]

He isnt overrated at all, but God damn his man teets are jiggly.

[Guest HartFan86]

I'm going to step into this argument to defend Austin and Canadian Chick's opinion on some of the matches mentioned:

 

vs. Owen Hart, SummerSlam '97-no finish= not a great match

I suggest you watch this again because despite the botched finish, it a very good match. Obviously, the finish took a lot away from it, but for what it was worth it was really good.

 

w/ Shawn Michaels vs. Owen & Bulldog, RAW '97= don't remember form the top of my head

Superb match. I suggest you try to download or get a copy of it. 2nd best tag team match on Raw History.

 

w/ HHH vs. Chris Benoit and Chris Jericho, RAW '01=good tag match, not a great mach

Oh wow, I don't see how you figure this one. Sure, the finish looked a tad weak...but HHH gutted it out and made it look okay. Everything else was just pure gold. The buildup for the climax of the match was great, the match was actually given time to tell a story, the near falls where great, the crowd heat was nuts, and the match ended with the faces pulling an upset win. If the HHH injury didn't happen, I would have no problem giving this match a full *****, but the injury does take away from it...but saying "not a great match" is quite absurd.

 

vs. Kurt Angle, SummerSlam '00

Awesome match, Summerslam 2001, btw. Great Pyschology, Great buildup, Great storyline, Great Chemistry, Crappy Finish.

vs. Chris Benoit, RAW

Amazing match here and having it in Calgary was all the better. Probably one of the best WWF Title Matches I've ever seen on Raw.

vs. Kurt Angle, RAW '01-both Benoit and Angle are by far the best workers in WWE right now and can carry any one to a good match.

Sure you can say that, but you don't need to carry someone like Steve Austin. Ask anyone who works for the WWE, I'm sure they will tell you that Steve Austin is one guy you can be lucky to wrestle because it's pretty obvious the match will go good. Even Earl Hebner said the feels safe the most in the ring with Steve cause he knows if he [Earl] fucks up, Austin will be there to help him (Pre-2002, of course). But still, Austin and Angle have great chemistry when they are given the time to build a story out of a match...and this was one of them and it takes 2 to do that, not one.

 

vs. The Rock, WrestleMania X-7- all Rock matches were ovewrrated because of brawling in crowd, fake finishes, and hot crowd (like Rock vs.Hogan)

I hate the Rock as much as you, but you have to give him credit. This was one of the best Wrestlemania Matches ever. Amazing Story in the match itself and great drama. Also, some really nice pyschology to add. The finish was quite junky, but it got Austin over as a heel. I'm not sure what you mean by "fake finishes", but a hot crowd makes every match better....not just Rock's.

 

vs. Shawn Michaels, KOR '97-Average match,overrated. Never cliqued.

Agreed...Their WM 14 match was better, even if Shawn was crippled. I think the horrible finish, Shawn being un-motivated, and having this match go without buildup hurt it. It was a decent match and definately the best from KOTR 97, but nothing more.

 

vs. Dude Love, Over The Edge '98-great match,I'llagree.

Foley's best match in the WWF, IMO. Better than Mind Games.

 

vs. The Rock, Backlash '99-see above

I actually enjoyed Mania 15 over Backlash 99...but both matches are still good.

 

vs. KOR '01, vs. Chris Benoit and Chris Jericho-Carried by the Chris's

 

I think the other guys covered that. If anyone carried it, it was Austin. Jericho botching spots and Benoit being hurt, well, there you go.

 

So, other than those matches mentioned, you could add tons more: vs. HBK (Mania 14), vs. Taker (Summerslam 1998), vs. Foley (Unforgiven 98), and it goes on and on and on. Austin definately is one of the 5 best workers of all-time and is probably the 2nd most popular star ever, second to Hogan. With that said, I think Austin could have a very good run at being "Greatest Wrestler Ever" cause he can back it up.

[Guest Brian]

That was when Angle was still picking things up. He came off the Benoit series exposed. He came out of the McMahon match exposed. Austin was doing the carrying.

 

That Rock match told a beautiful story, and even though the finish was horrible, it so fit the match. The brawling was weak though.

[Guest Redhawk]

By "horrible finish," do y'all mean you wanted to see a clean finish, or do you mean the finish was botched/counterproductive/pointless? In the Austin vs. Angle Summerslam match, I thought the finish fit in perfectly. Austin had beat the crap out of Angle, Angle wouldn't lay the fuck down, so Austin got himself DQ'd to keep his title. What's so bad about that? IF Austin had gone over clean than Angle would be weakened, and if Angle had gone over clean the feud is closer to being finished.

[Guest HartFan86]

By "horrible finish," do y'all mean you wanted to see a clean finish, or do you mean the finish was botched/counterproductive/pointless? In the Austin vs. Angle Summerslam match, I thought the finish fit in perfectly. Austin had beat the crap out of Angle, Angle wouldn't lay the fuck down, so Austin got himself DQ'd to keep his title. What's so bad about that? IF Austin had gone over clean than Angle would be weakened, and if Angle had gone over clean the feud is closer to being finished.

You kinda answered your own question. They booked themselves into a corner with that match. You couldn't kill Austin or Angle's heat, so they had to go with the DQ...but for a huge match at a Summerslam end in a DQ? That's just ripping off the fans. Angle probably could of gone over, but I dunno. It really should of been Austin going over by finally destroying Angle (maybe with 2-3 more stunners or maybe the Mania X-7 finish again), then beat him the next PPV, then Angle wins the blowoff. Oh well.

[Guest snowfan]

By "horrible finish," do y'all mean you wanted to see a clean finish, or do you mean the finish was botched/counterproductive/pointless? In the Austin vs. Angle Summerslam match, I thought the finish fit in perfectly. Austin had beat the crap out of Angle, Angle wouldn't lay the fuck down, so Austin got himself DQ'd to keep his title. What's so bad about that? IF Austin had gone over clean than Angle would be weakened, and if Angle had gone over clean the feud is closer to being finished.

You kinda answered your own question. They booked themselves into a corner with that match. You couldn't kill Austin or Angle's heat, so they had to go with the DQ...but for a huge match at a Summerslam end in a DQ? That's just ripping off the fans. Angle probably could of gone over, but I dunno. It really should of been Austin going over by finally destroying Angle (maybe with 2-3 more stunners or maybe the Mania X-7 finish again), then beat him the next PPV, then Angle wins the blowoff. Oh well.

Hindsight being 20/20 I'll bet they'd worried less about protecting Austin and more about helping Angle.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

This may shock certain people on this board, but clean finishes are a neccesity when building a good feud. The classic wrestling feud of "one guy chasing the other, getting closer and closer to winning, ect." formula doesn't work if you never put anyone over clean.

 

As for the "NA only" rule that I seem have missed, I think it's proposterous enough that people slap on "of all time" at the end of every statement they can think of, when at no one here has been watching wrestling for more than twenty-something years, at most, and then claim it's NA only, too. I was just throwing out names that could be better than Flair, and like I said, I haven't seen enough of any of them to say whether they're really better than him.

 

And Angle was indeed exposed by the series with Benoit. At X7, everyone was hyped for the matwork, but after that Kurt just kept overreaching to the point that it was ruining a feud that could have been good and fun had they just stuck to what Kurt was capable of. Austin was one of the top workers in North America from the mid ninties through 2001, and was definitely better than Angle, as his matches opposite Benoit were, overall, much better ,especially their second TV match, which was my favorite WWF match of 2001 and one of the best I've ever seen.

[Guest HartFan86]

By "horrible finish," do y'all mean you wanted to see a clean finish, or do you mean the finish was botched/counterproductive/pointless? In the Austin vs. Angle Summerslam match, I thought the finish fit in perfectly. Austin had beat the crap out of Angle, Angle wouldn't lay the fuck down, so Austin got himself DQ'd to keep his title. What's so bad about that? IF Austin had gone over clean than Angle would be weakened, and if Angle had gone over clean the feud is closer to being finished.

You kinda answered your own question. They booked themselves into a corner with that match. You couldn't kill Austin or Angle's heat, so they had to go with the DQ...but for a huge match at a Summerslam end in a DQ? That's just ripping off the fans. Angle probably could of gone over, but I dunno. It really should of been Austin going over by finally destroying Angle (maybe with 2-3 more stunners or maybe the Mania X-7 finish again), then beat him the next PPV, then Angle wins the blowoff. Oh well.

Hindsight being 20/20 I'll bet they'd worried less about protecting Austin and more about helping Angle.

Then Angle should of gone over.

[Guest snowfan]

By "horrible finish," do y'all mean you wanted to see a clean finish, or do you mean the finish was botched/counterproductive/pointless? In the Austin vs. Angle Summerslam match, I thought the finish fit in perfectly. Austin had beat the crap out of Angle, Angle wouldn't lay the fuck down, so Austin got himself DQ'd to keep his title. What's so bad about that? IF Austin had gone over clean than Angle would be weakened, and if Angle had gone over clean the feud is closer to being finished.

You kinda answered your own question. They booked themselves into a corner with that match. You couldn't kill Austin or Angle's heat, so they had to go with the DQ...but for a huge match at a Summerslam end in a DQ? That's just ripping off the fans. Angle probably could of gone over, but I dunno. It really should of been Austin going over by finally destroying Angle (maybe with 2-3 more stunners or maybe the Mania X-7 finish again), then beat him the next PPV, then Angle wins the blowoff. Oh well.

Hindsight being 20/20 I'll bet they'd worried less about protecting Austin and more about helping Angle.

Then Angle should of gone over.

I agree. I may get some heat for typing this, but I think Austin post 2000 is/was every bit the spot fortifying political jockey AArdvark is. Aardvark won because of Big Steph in the "real big match".(Hgh vs "what?") WWE cost itself by not using that period to build the next generation of main eventers.

 

HGH of course feels he will be THE main event until he is 50.

[Guest JHawk]

Well, this might be the most asinine thread ever. Flair overrated? Hoo boy.

 

Yes, Flair's a shell of his former self. He's ovr 50 for God's sake.

 

And yes, I find the WrestleWar 89 match with Steamboat overrated myself. It's great and at least ****, IMO, but their 2 out of 3 falls match was much more entertaining. Similar psychology but with the ending not coming out of nowhere.

 

But for Flair to be the most overrated ever? In terms of what? Workrate? No way. I have a match on tape from the old World Championship Wrestling program from WTBS studios where Flair wrestles George South (this would be late-1988). George South never won a match that I ever saw, but his match with Flair goes over 10 minutes and is at least ***. At that point, me as a 10 year-old mark saw George South as a threat, even if he never won a match. Flair was able to put him over. THAT is talent. Angle did a similar thing with John Cena (and as much John Cena hate as there is, casual fans buy into Cena as a threat. Or at least they did until D-Von beat him).

 

It's always been said that a good worjer can make anybody look good. So look at Flair's matches with George South. Ronnie Garvin. Jimmy Garvin. Lex Luger in his rookie year. Then tell me Flair is overrated.