The one & only War On Terror thread

[Zorin Industries 0]

Now you've got it!

 

Someone give the man a cookie.

You don't seem to get it.

 

There is so much hatred in the ME towards you that trying this will open a firestorm that you won't be able to control.

 

There not like dogs who can be trained to jump on command, their people who throughout the entire history of their region have been attacked and threatend by the west.

 

They will just see this as another crusade, and that is dangerous.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

"Helped?" The shame was forced on them. Most Germans didn't immediately accept that Hitler had perpetrated the horrors he had. Only when they were dragged in front of the evidence and had it rammed down their throats by appalled Allied COs did they open their eyes to the truth. And even then we sometimes had to use crowbars. It's just that once we started the process, it was self-perpetuating. But guilt hardly imparts virtue.

 

Hell, some Germans still don't believe there was a Holocaust.

[Guest J*ingus]

Isn't that what we're trying to do here? Use violence as a foothole, and then make them see that their actions were shameful?

[Guest Cancer Marney]

There is so much hatred in the ME towards you that trying this will open a firestorm that you won't be able to control.

We can control anything and anyone as long as we're willing to make the investment.

 

There not like dogs who can be trained to jump on command

No? That's exactly what they did on 9/11. Jump, Fido! There's something you'll like on the other side of the hoop. 76 virgins and eternal paradise is their version of the doggie treat.

 

They will just see this as another crusade

Good, because that's exactly what it is. Only this time we're interested in securing their freedom rather than Jerusalem.

 

and that is dangerous.

Everything worthwhile is dangerous.

[Zorin Industries 0]

Yes, but the NATION of Germany was the one who declared war.

 

What started as a war against terror, is probably starting to look like a war against Islam in the eyes of many, and that will increase the hatred 1000 fold. They will not feel shame but a rightous anger against the West they feel is attacking them.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

It is a war against Islam, and it declared war on us first. Germany felt "rightous [sic] anger" as well until we beat the shit out of them and forced them to look at Auschwitz. The Moslems will feel shame as well when we beat the shit out of them and force them to look at their atrocities.

[Zorin Industries 0]

They will just see this as another crusade

Good, because that's exactly what it is. Only this time we're interested in securing their freedom rather than Jerusalem.

 

Thats the problem, I don't think they will accept the freedom you bring.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

I don't think they will accept the freedom you bring.

It's amusing that I have more faith in the Moslems than you do.

[Zorin Industries 0]

It is a war against Islam, and it declared war on us first. Germany felt "rightous [sic] anger" as well until we beat the shit out of them and forced them to look at Auschwitz. The Moslems will feel shame as well when we beat the shit out of them and force them to look at their atrocities.

Yes, but Germany was under the control of an Ideology that had lost alot of support as the war ground on.

 

Contrast this to Islam, which is the Worlds fastest growing and probably most devout Relgion

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Germany was under the control of an Ideology that had lost alot of support as the war ground on.

This war's just starting. Islam will lose support as well. Arabs have a millenia-long history of siding with the victors. Even Osama bin Laden said it: "When people see a strong horse and a weak horse, they will by nature prefer the strong horse."

We're going to show them we're the strong horse.

 

Contrast this to Islam, which is the Worlds fastest growing and probably most devout Relgion

Not for long. I think they suffered a few tens of thousands of losses in October of last year.

[Zorin Industries 0]

I don't think they will accept the freedom you bring.

It's amusing that I have more faith in the Moslems than you do.

I think that you drasticaly underestimate, what the Islamic faith means to them.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

I think that you drasticaly underestimate, what the Islamic faith means to them.

And I think you drastically underestimate what the ideas of liberty, justice, empowerment, and truth mean to all humanity.

[Zorin Industries 0]

I think that you drasticaly underestimate, what the Islamic faith means to them.

And I think you drastically underestimate what the ideas of liberty, justice, empowerment, and truth mean to all humanity.

And I think there are certain cultures where these ideals take a back seat to faith.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Agreed. Which is precisely why those cultures must be changed. Brainwashing and enslavement are not a "different perspective." They are evil. And, like all evil cultures, they weaken those who partake of them and lead inevitably to their downfall.

 

It's just a matter of time.

[Zorin Industries 0]

I can see we won't agree on the methods, but let me just make clear one more time, that i think the US is in for a lot of trouble in this area for many years and that you had better be prepared to go all the way with this.

 

Good discussion though, thanks.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Welcome. Thank you.

 

I appreciate the difficulties fully, and I hope we go all the way with this too.

[Zorin Industries 0]

Funny, on the topic we disagree on most, we keep it the most civil

 

Such is life.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

...which should tell cretins like goodhelmet and The Man in Blak something about how important all those insults are to anyone.

 

Of course, that assumes they have some bare minimum of brain matter within their Mongoloid skulls and the ability to use it, which is a conclusion unsubstantiated by any available evidence at this time.

[Zorin Industries 0]

They can make good points, although it can get lost with the name calling, which, yes I did do (and I wasn't pleased with myself after I posted it).

 

Guess I shouldn't post in anger

[Guest Cancer Marney]

No no, trust me, they're complete fuckheads!

 

<stifles gigglefit>

[Zorin Industries 0]

I thought you would have called me a fuckhead now.

 

P.S Love the sig

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Well of course you're a fuckhead, that goes without saying.

 

PS. Thought you would.

[Zorin Industries 0]

Thats alright, just like to know where i stand.

[Guest Ken]

The fact is the north of Iraq is controlled by the Kurds, and under the no-fly zone. The reality is Saddam has little or no power there.

You'd be more credible if you got your information from somewhere other than a cutesy little Newsweek infographic, jackass. The real reality is that several army divisions are just across the river from the Kurds. Furthermore, even in the regions where Saddam doesn't have power, the Kurds usually don't either. Several groups linked to Al-Qaeda, such as Ansar al-Islam, control large areas near the mountainous Iran border. According to the Kurds, they are being supplied by Baghdad, and there are some preliminary indications to support this allegation. And finally, there are several strongholds occupied by Al-Qaeda itself in northwestern Iraq.

 

I suppose you've been there recently so you'd know.

Oh, very intelligent and mature.

And relevant. Don't forget relevant.

After all, you're making claims we know to be false. I'd like you to name your sources. Details, please, as well as dates, explanations, and documented evidence. 98% of Iraq's (presumably) 1990 WMD capabilities have been destroyed? What does that percentage even mean? Are you talking about production facilities, actual weapons, research labs, or something else? All taken together? If so, what weight did you give each factor? Your statistic is absolutely meaningless.

At the CIA, the technical term for statements like yours is "bullshit."

And since even the limited and ineffectual weapons inspectors haven't been in Iraq for half a decade, what makes you think Saddam Hussein hasn't rebuilt and restocked whatever was destroyed? As the Honorable Mr Rumsfeld stated: "We know they've kept their nuclear scientists together... one has to assume they've not been playing tiddlywinks."

Everything we know indicates that Saddam Hussein most certainly has not been playing tiddlywinks, except to the UN: a senior official of the Uninformed Ninnies, when confronted with aerial photographs of a convoy of trucks fleeing a factory as inspectors approached, seriously offered this explanation: "It's possible that they were going to a truckers' party."

Now why didn't I think of that? Oh that's right, because it's UNFUCKINGBELIEVABLY STUPID.

 

America doesn't seem to mind accepting oil from other dictatorships, where human rights are oppressed and money goes straight to despotic leaders (coughsaudiarabiacough)

I've been saying that we should throw Saudi Arabia to the dogs for a long time. Anyway, that's completely irrelevant to the argument: you had claimed that sanctions were useless and counterproductive, and I agreed with you. They're given only lip service; thousands of tons of illegal goods pour into Iraq every day. Border controls are nonexistent; only materials that are controlled in the first place are prevented (sporadically) from reaching Iraq. Because of the laxity of his neighbours, Saddam Hussein can get pretty much anything else he wants. It's only the ordinary people who suffer.

Which, again, is why we need to end the farce of sanctions, forget about inspections, and go to war. The sooner the better.

 

you're Saddam's bank manager so you'd know.

No. I work for the government, and I can read, so I'd know.

From a State Department memo: "In July 1999, Forbes Magazine estimated Saddam Hussein's personal wealth at $6 billion, acquired primarily from oil and smuggling." That assessment was a bare minimum to begin with, and since then it has been revised upwards significantly. Saddam Hussein has spent over $2 billion on palaces alone in the last ten years.

The memo continues: "In April 1999, Iraqi officials inaugurated Saddamiat al Tharthar. Located 85 miles west of Baghdad, this sprawling lakeside vacation resort contains stadiums, an amusement park, hospitals, parks, and 625 homes to be used by government officials. This project cost hundreds of millions of dollars." Aerial photographs of this facility exist.

 

There is no real evidence for going to war with Iraq, Bush is just clutching a straws.

I'm inclined to believe that the President of the United States knows a bit more than you do. When was your last strategic intelligence briefing from the JCOS or the DCI?

1. You stated that the Kurds don't control northern Iraq. You are incorrect, but the fact remains you did not give evidence Saddam is in control there.

 

2. As for details, dates, explanations and documented evidence, where is that to back up your claims on Iraq? All you say is based on heresay and circumstantial evidence.

 

3. It's interesting that you mention the CIA and JCOS, seeing as most of America's high ranking military officers realise that invading Iraq is a really stupid idea.

 

General Wesley Clark: "The United States cannot win single-handed, no matter how capable its military... Attacking Iraq will detract from our primary mission against al-Qaida, supercharging anti-American sentiment in the Arab street, boosting al-Qaida's recruiting, and causing difficulty for moderate Arab regimes."

 

Brent Scowcroft: "Israel would have to expect to be the first casualty, as in 1991when Saddam sought to bring Israel into the Gulf conflict. This time, using weapons of mass destruction, he might succeed, provoking Israel to respond, perhaps with nuclear weapons, unleashing an armageddon in the Middle East."

[Guest Cancer Marney]

You stated that the Kurds don't control northern Iraq. You are incorrect, but the fact remains you did not give evidence Saddam is in control there.

The Kurds control nothing. Their paramilitary forces are untrained and ill-equipped. If the American and the British fighter jets didn't guarantee their safety, they would be overrun within a day. Saddam Hussein still has an army of something like 100,000; he also has armour, aeroplanes, and an overwhelming logistical advantage. He can and does extend his reach when he feels like it and the Kurds are not safe. Furthermore, the radical Islamic groups have slaughtered several villages in the northwest, along with the pathetic paramilitary forces of the PUK at will. Just last year Khela Hama was decimated by Ansar al-Islam.

 

As for details, dates, explanations and documented evidence, where is that to back up your claims on Iraq? All you say is based on heresay and circumstantial evidence.

This isn't a court of law, so drop the legal terminology, especially if you can't even spell it, you illiterate buffoon. Hearsay and circumstantial evidence are more than enough to develop a casus belli; in fact, hearsay and circumstantial evidence are pretty much the best you ever get in a hostile country. And let's get this straight, you're calling State Department photographs of a hundred million dollar facility "circumstantial?" What's your definition of concrete, traces of caviar in Saddam Hussein's sperm? Fine. Check between your teeth...

Early 1942, people like you were still arguing that Hitler might not really be persecuting the Jews. After all, we didn't actually have photos of the interior of any gas chambers. Wait, they might have been doctored anyway. Nevermind.

 

It's interesting that you mention the CIA and JCOS, seeing as most of America's high ranking military officers realise that invading Iraq is a really stupid idea.

Invading Iraq is the best available option and is in fact an absolutely brilliant idea, as over 60% of Americans know. This will push the Middle East towards becoming a civilised region by demonstrating American power and American will close to their home. As I said to Zorin, Arabs have a very long history of siding with victors. Crush Saddam Hussein like a bug, and within a couple of years they'll all be eating McDonald's.

 

As for the people you quoted, General Clark was the NATO Supreme Commander and General Scowcroft was the National Security Advisor for the former President Bush and President Ford. Both are former officials, neither is privy to current classified information, and moreover thinking has changed. No general ever wants to send his troops into combat. No one wants to see people die. However the fact is that the alternatives are far, far worse. Leave Saddam in power? We did that in 1991 at the pleading of the Saudis, and look what happened.

And they're both wrong in any case. This is precisely why we pay very little attention to former officials whoring their past credentials for a media spotlight, other than to slap them down when they get too annoying.

I heard about Clark's vaunted "Arab street" a billion times before Operation Infinite Justice. Yawn. Nothing happened then and nothing will happen now. The term "Arab street" is as tired and dull and irrelevant as the term "quagmire." Shut up.

Scowcroft's prediction is asinine considering the fact that Iraq does not at present have nuclear capability, and even so Israel will stay out of any war because they're too smart to get involved. You think they can't take a little provocation? Why aren't the Palestinians extinct yet?

Besides, what's the big deal even if they do get involved? You think Israel and the United States can't beat the crap out of the entire Middle East if they have to, with minimal casualties at worst? Israel beat the crap out of the entire Middle East in six days all by herself and only 759 of her soldiers died, while Arab casualties were approximately 15,000. Shut up.

 

It's time to change the world. Bitch and moan all you want, but it's going to happen, as the President will inform the UN in ninety minutes.

 

Oh, and by the way, you can stop quoting the entire fucking post you're responding to. You're wasting space.

Although I suppose that's in character, as you're wasting oxygen as well.

[Zorin Industries 0]

I quess someone should have warned you what to expect Ken.

 

Oh well, now you know.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Ahhh, you can't beat experience, Zorin.

Spare the rod and spoil the child. Maybe one day Kenny will have something substantive to say.

[Zorin Industries 0]

Yep.

 

I remember are first encounter fondly.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Remind me, what was the thread?

[Zorin Industries 0]

Um, I can't remember the original thread, I think it got closed cause of all the fighting.

 

Then we moved to NHB and made up.

 

We started fighting again by the next week of course