Buffy The Vampire Slayer: Season 7

[Guest Kagato Otaku]

Hell, where was the beach? At least we've been SHOWN that!

 

I can remember the beach from "Go Fish" and the beginning of one ep where Buffy, Riley, and the others were having a picnic.

 

But to say we've never seen the harbor isn't true. Aside from being mentioned, we saw it in "Surprise", "Consequences" and I *think* "Buffy vs. Dracula", though I couldn't tell you for certain, since I don't think I've sat thru that ep more than once.

 

There may be others, but I can think of those three off the top of my head.

[Guest Kagato Otaku]

Hmm. For some odd reason my response didn't appear until a few minutes AFTER I posted it.

 

I don't visit here all that often, so maybe there's a problem with the board I haven't read about. Huh.

Edited May 22, 2003 by Kagato Otaku

[Guest Mole]

Alright, I came home early from Irleand, so I watched Buffy once I got home.

 

This was one of my favorite season finales, everything was just awesome.

 

Like someone said before, almost everyone's stories were complete. Buffy isn't alone anymore, Willow is SO powerful and she can do powerful magic without going evil, and Spike died to fullfill his destiny.

 

I loved how Buffy isn't alone anymore. This was one of the major storylines throughout the whole series, and Joss ended it with gold.

 

I just wish that Xander had more of a role, but if you think about it, he was never really a big part in a lot of the wars, other than season 6. They could of done more with his character, but I think the whole eye thing was his strength. He could see everything, and so now he can't.

 

Anya's death shocked the fuck out of me, but I thought it was done well. She hasn't been a main focus this season, so why should they focus her death so much? She died, in battle, protecting Andrew. I remember someone saying that one of them was going to die, and they were right.

 

Angel only being on the show for a few mintues was fine by me. He hasn't been apart of the Buffy world for a while, he has his own thing going on now. There was no need for him, other than his interaction with Buffy. He did his thing, left, and went back to LA.

 

That is all I think of, but I am going to watch it again tonight.

[Guest Cavi]

But to say we've never seen the harbor isn't true. Aside from being mentioned, we saw it in "Surprise", "Consequences" and I *think* "Buffy vs. Dracula", though I couldn't tell you for certain, since I don't think I've sat thru that ep more than once.

We did indeed see it in "Buffy vs. Dracula". All the Scoobies were at the beach. Buffy was tossing a football around with Riley. Xander was trying to make a fire so they could cook some food. Willow did a spell to start a fire, though it had the side effect of starting a huge downpour of rain. They then ran off.

Edited May 23, 2003 by Cavi

[Guest Youth N Asia]

There's also "Suprise" in season 2 when Angel's about to board a cargo ship...maybe the ocean's two towns over...

 

Glad you finally saw it Mole...thread was missing ya

[Guest Kagato Otaku]

maybe the ocean's two towns over...

 

Nah, it's definitely in or around Sunnydale way. Joss and Co. either - -

 

A: Forgot it.

B: Knowingly left it out and hoped fans would forget, as not to scrunch up the Sunnydale crater imagery.

 

If it's option B, I think they should have left it in. The ocean filling up the large hole where their town used to be would have made for an AWESOME visual.

Edited May 23, 2003 by Kagato Otaku

[Guest Cavi]

I just thought of another ep in which we see the ocean. At the end of "Grave", when Willow and Xander are up on the bluff, we see it off in the background.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Don't we see the docks in Surprise?

 

Isn't that where Angel and Buffy go before they GET IT ON.

[Guest Kagato Otaku]

It's also where Faith goes to skip town, before Buffy & Mr. Trick catch up to her.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

That's right.

[Guest Mole]

I remember no docks or anything like it.

[Guest Youth N Asia]

I remember no docks or anything like it.

When Angel is going to board a ship and take the Judge's arm elsewhere to get it out of town. You see docks and ships.

 

EDIT: This was post #2,500 in the thread.

Edited May 23, 2003 by Youth N Asia

[Guest Mole]

I watched "Chosen" again, and I noticed a few things that I don't think anyone mentioned.

 

Anya, with her BUNNIES!!

 

One person said that just because the SiTs were strong, it doesn't mean they could fight. Well they have been training a long time, to fight. Since they were strong, they had something to back up their skills with. So when they got their powers, they could kick some major ass.

 

Now that the final came around, I see the importance of them. They held the ubervamps off for long enough so Spike could work his, soul.

 

If you think about it, it is impossible to kill the First. It is a spirit, not a demon or a human being. You can't kill something that you can't touch, it is impossible.

 

The First was trying to kill Buffy itself, but make an army that would kill Buffy. And the First knew that regular vampires wouldn't do it, so it bread the ubervamps.

 

Another thing I thought about, I am glad that the First didn't fight. Buffy is the VAMPIRE slayer, that is her main job. Her job was to kill vampires, which the series has gone away from, sort of. When one of the big bads was a vampire? Season 2, with Angelus. Season 3 had the vampires with the Mayor, but they didn't play a BIG part. Yes, I know the ubervamps weren't big bads, but they sort of were. Buffy saw what the final confortation would come down to, the ubervamps. She knew that the final battle would be about vamps, so she prepared for that.

 

Basically, Buffy was too good of a slayer for regular vampires. She was a step up, and these ubervamps were perfect. They were stronger, tougher, and harder to kill. It was a new challenge for Buffy, and the First knew that to a certain extent.

 

My point is that Buffy fought vampires again, the whole point of the slayer in the first place.

[Guest Mole]

I remember no docks or anything like it.

When Angel is going to board a ship and take the Judge's arm elsewhere to get it out of town. You see docks and ships.

 

EDIT: This was post #2,500 in the thread.

Ohh okay.

 

DAMN. 2500. Now 2502.

[Guest Sakura]

If you think about it, it is impossible to kill the First. It is a spirit, not a demon or a human being. You can't kill something that you can't touch, it is impossible.

A lot of things on Buffy are impossible. The First itself talked about becoming a corporeal being so it's not like it's out of the question in regards to the mythos too.

 

Not fighting it is not the real problem. The real problem is that it was handled so poorly. Just like a ton of things this season, The First seems to have been written by like 5 writers who never met with each other to compare ideas and make sure everything made sense.

 

We never did learn it's plan or what it wanted. Sometimes it wanted to kill the Slayer Line. Then it wanted to merge with every human. Just one ep later it was talking about becoming flesh. It's reason for striking now was never elobrated on. The eye told Anya and Giles it was because they revived Buffy. Anya thought about it for all of 5 seconds then went back to being a sarcastic bit player to make room for characters like Kennedy before being brutally murdered.

 

They never explained what it wanted with Spike. Yeah, sure, you can blow it off with "well it just thought Spike would be a good ally"...give me a break. It was OBSESSED with Spike! There clearly was something huge goin on there that was dropped. It kept talking about how it wasn't "time yet" for Spike and other such stuff. It had a reason and either they(the writers) never figured out what to make it or they decided to go in another direction.

 

We never found out about it's tools and henchmen. Where did Caleb come from? What was the deal with the ring? Why can only Caleb merge with him? What took Caleb so long to arrive in Sunnydale? How is it raising Ubervamps? When The Master opened the hellmouth it was giant fake looking puppet monsters, since when was it a cavern full of uberamps? Giles barely even knew of the ubervamp and somehow with no explination at all The First is like creating them or summoning them? What was up with the demon that attacked Joyce in CWDP?

 

It's defeat was god awful. It just leaves. It doesn't even leave on camera. One second it's there, next it's not. Not even a parting taunt. It just leaves. The final big bad of the last season of the show just leaves. There is no closure at all. Since we have no idea what created the army for all we know it's just starting up a new one in Cleaveland. Since we have no idea what gave Caleb the power it's probably just finding another crazy preacher. This is weaksauce. If it wasn't going to fight or die they could have at least wrote it's plan so that there was finality. Like explain how and why Caleb is the only one in the world that can be it's host. Explain how only the Sunnydale hellmouth can breed Ubervamps. Explain how if this plan is defeated it will be forced back into resession forever. They needed to put over how this wasn't just it's latest plan, this was huge and that stopping it would force it back. Even without fighting they needed to get rid of it somehow. Make sure that it can never again harass them. None of this happened. It simply lost one battle. Sure, it lost it's right arm and it's army but so what? The thing is immortal. Just try again. Bomb the scooby school bus or something. What happened in Chosen was a minor inconvienence.

[Guest Cavi]

Word to that Sak. I hope Joss or Marti explain what was up with the writing at a later date. Marti did like an ep by ep breakdown for SFX mag for last season which was quite cool; hopefully she does it again.

Edited May 23, 2003 by Cavi

[Guest Ripper]

"We never did learn it's plan or what it wanted. Sometimes it wanted to kill the Slayer Line. Then it wanted to merge with every human. Just one ep later it was talking about becoming flesh. It's reason for striking now was never elobrated on. The eye told Anya and Giles it was because they revived Buffy. Anya thought about it for all of 5 seconds then went back to being a sarcastic bit player to make room for characters like Kennedy before being brutally murdered.

 

They never explained what it wanted with Spike. Yeah, sure, you can blow it off with "well it just thought Spike would be a good ally"...give me a break. It was OBSESSED with Spike! There clearly was something huge goin on there that was dropped. It kept talking about how it wasn't "time yet" for Spike and other such stuff. It had a reason and either they(the writers) never figured out what to make it or they decided to go in another direction. "

 

Well, it wanted to kill the slayer line because it knew what could happen..ie: Buffy gets the schythe and makes all of them slayers thus balancing the scales. It struck now because it could. While they never elaborated on it, it was enogh of a explanination for me. By bringing buffy back, it disrupted the entire universe giving it a chance to be more powerful.

 

And why was it after Spike?? Now thats plain easy. Spike was going to be the difference maker. Spike is the reason Buffy and crew won . He was the Souled Vampire that would make a difference at the end of the world. Everyone assumed it would be angel...the first knew it was Spike. With Spike on its side(or dead) it would win the war. Thats why it turned Wood on Spike to try and take him out...thats why he had Spike killing so that Buffy would take him out...but she never did. I think his role in the finally clearly demostrated the First obsession with him was for that reason.

[Guest Madmartigan21]

When Buffy goes to turn herself in for "killing" Warren's ex girlfriend Spike stops her and she beats the shit out of him saying "You don't have a soul.  There is nothing good or clean in you.  I could NEVER be your girl".  When Spike goes way over the line and tries to rape her he realizes that it's true.  And he's off to get his soul because it's what she deserves.

Maybe I'm retarded or something, but I'm pretty sure that's NOT what happened.

 

Spike didn't go off to get his soul. He went to get the chip removed, so as he could go on a rampage showing Buffy what evil he was truly capable of.

 

Spike, however, chose his words poorly when he made his request. He said something like, "I want to be made like I was." The demon, basically an evil genie in that he decided not honor the spirit of the request, decided to interpret that how it wanted and gave Spike back his soul. A side note, I thought for sure he was going to make Spike human at that point.

 

I think when Spike was insane in the basement, he convinced himself that he intentionally had his soul restored. But the fact that was not his original motivation taints his redemption. The soul was the catalyst for his redemption, but he never wanted his soul back in the first place.

[The Dames 0]

I've got to disagree with you there, MadMartigan. Spike never blatantly said that he wanted to get the chip removed in order to hurt her...just that he wanted to change. He was upset over everything that had happened, especially the rape attempt and he had enough contempt for his own actions that he went out with the intentions of trying to be a better man.

 

Dames

[Guest Cavi]

A few days after "Grave" was shown, David Fury, who penned the ep, confirmed that Spike was asking for his soul back, not asking for the chip to be removed.

 

I'm on the side of belief that he realized what he had done, though it was booked so you could make a case either way (the scene in the crypt with him and Clem comes to mind). Great stuff.

[Guest Mole]

We never did learn it's plan or what it wanted. Sometimes it wanted to kill the Slayer Line. Then it wanted to merge with every human. Just one ep later it was talking about becoming flesh. It's reason for striking now was never elobrated on. The eye told Anya and Giles it was because they revived Buffy. Anya thought about it for all of 5 seconds then went back to being a sarcastic bit player to make room for characters like Kennedy before being brutally murdered.

 

The whole plain of the First was to kill the slayer line. Remember in "Get it Done" when Buffy jumped through the portal, and saw the old African dudes who made the slayer. At the end of the ep, one oftthe dudes showed her what the final battle would come down to, the ubervamps, a whole army of them. That was the First's plan, the whole time.

 

This is just a pure guess on my part, but I believe the First was saying it could become flesh when it had enough power. Remember when it said that when its army had taken over the earth, and out numbered the humans. My guess is that it needed to have the ubervamps take over most of the earth before its power was great enough to become human flesh, by taking over every human person.

 

The eye told them that the First was around because they revived Buffy. Well, if you think about it, the First came back around to stop the Slayer. The Slayer wasn't dead, so it wanted to stop it from having its powers and such.

 

They never explained what it wanted with Spike. Yeah, sure, you can blow it off with "well it just thought Spike would be a good ally"...give me a break. It was OBSESSED with Spike! There clearly was something huge goin on there that was dropped. It kept talking about how it wasn't "time yet" for Spike and other such stuff. It had a reason and either they(the writers) never figured out what to make it or they decided to go in another direction.

 

It wanted Spike, just like Ripper said, because he was the key to stopping the whole thing. Plus, if Spike were on its side, it would add a 'champion' to its side, something it really needed. If Spike was on its side, then maybe they would of won. Plus, since the First was fucking with Spike, it distracted Buffy a little bit. Not at first, but after a while Buffy was more concerned with Spike than the First. Just like in "Graduation Day Pt 1 and 2" when Angel got shot with the arrow and was dieing. Buffy was not paying attention to the Mayor, but to Angel. Same idea here, but spread out during the season.

 

We never found out about it's tools and henchmen. Where did Caleb come from? What was the deal with the ring? Why can only Caleb merge with him? What took Caleb so long to arrive in Sunnydale? How is it raising Ubervamps? When The Master opened the hellmouth it was giant fake looking puppet monsters, since when was it a cavern full of uberamps? Giles barely even knew of the ubervamp and somehow with no explination at all The First is like creating them or summoning them? What was up with the demon that attacked Joyce in CWDP?

 

I agree with you on Caleb, that was pretty weak on the writing crew.

 

I believe the First was either creating the ubervamps or summoning them. The Hellmouth is just the place where it enters the earth, it is apart of Hell. The First was summoning the ubervamps for a war, and just wanted them for its army. It was the First evil, so maybe it had power in hell.

 

I think the demon that attakced Joyce was fake, just something to fuck Dawn with.

Edited May 23, 2003 by Mole

[Guest Mole]

I've got to disagree with you there, MadMartigan. Spike never blatantly said that he wanted to get the chip removed in order to hurt her...just that he wanted to change. He was upset over everything that had happened, especially the rape attempt and he had enough contempt for his own actions that he went out with the intentions of trying to be a better man.

 

Dames

I'm with Mad on this one. Spike never said if he wanted his soul or to get the chipped removed. He just said "Make me back to what I was before." He wanted to get his chipped removed, not to get his soul back. The evil guy heard "make me back to what I was before" and that is what he did, gave him his soul back. Spike just wanted the chip out, but got something better.

 

This is how I believed it to be.

[Guest Ripper]

Yeah, except Spike said plenty of times later he went to get his soul. Even the FE in Mayor Wilkins form said asked him did he think he would just get his soul back and every thing would be fine. Him not asking specifically was just for a shock to the viewer. He wanted a soul.

 

And once you think about it, outside of Angel, what big bad did we really get to see the background of. There was a 2 minute speech about how the master was old and got trapped during the Earthquake...nothing about why he was a master or such...Mayor Wilkens...they never even said what he was. All they said was that he was the original mayor of Sunnydale and he wanted to be a big demon...Adam..(shudder)...was just a thrown together guy by Maggie Walsh, Glory...we got a 3 minute story on her in the 3rd to last ep of season 5...The Troikia...I mean really, how did they meet...what had they been doing since we last saw them on the show...we got nothing...

 

Caleb falls into the exact same fold as them. He was a preacher that killed girls...the First saw potential in him and made him its servant. Thats all the explaination you really need about the guy.

[Guest Mole]

Very good point Ripper, we never did get a backround on all of the Big Bads. However, Caleb wasn't really a Big Bad, he just came in and died. They should of done more with him, but whatever.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

Obviously Spike wanted his sould back. He knew very well he didn't need his chip removed to hurt Buffy. He had been able to hurt her with the chip all season long.

[The Dames 0]

I did think that the Angel episode where they showed Darla's background was absolutely perfect in its execution. After seeing everything that happened, it really makes the fact that Angel killed Darla in Season 1 so much more poignant.

 

Dames

[Guest Mole]

Refresh my memory on that, is it when Angel first got his soul back and Darla treats him like shit?

[Guest Mole]

Just a note for some people, "Hush" is on FX today at 6. One of the best episodes in the Buffy series, and Joss' first Emmy nomination.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Yeah...they only made us think during the end of season 6 that Spike was going to get the chip out as a swerve for what actually happens.

 

The writing staff was already looking at Spike the way we would come to see him this year. He COULD NOT do bad to Buffy. The fact that he almost did sent him off not to finish her off...but to make sure the demon in him wouldn't let that happen again.

[Guest Mole]

That is a good point bps21, I think Joss was trying to swerve the audiene in thinking that he wanted his chip out.