Forgotten Classics

[Guest Anglesault]

I miss Austin/Angle.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

I have THE ultimate Forgotten classic...

 

Trish vs. Steph in 2001...guys, this was the greatest women's match since the Jumping Bomb Angels were in the WWF. SEriously, I was clapping for both after the match.

[Guest Midnight Express83]

Midnight Express vs "James Boys". MIdnight Express vs Steiners. Midnight Express vs Pillman/Z-Man. Pillman vs Z-Man. Pillman/Z-Man vs Freebirds.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

While on the subject of the ME, it seems to me that people don't really talk about ME/Fantastics...probably one of the best tag team matches EVER...fuck, the DVDVR guys said it was one of the greatest matches ever...

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I have THE ultimate Forgotten classic...

 

Trish vs. Steph in 2001...guys, this was the greatest women's match since the Jumping Bomb Angels were in the WWF. SEriously, I was clapping for both after the match.

I really hope you're talking North America there, and even if you are, you'd be making a huge oversight. The Medusa/Bull matches were better, and so was the SS '95 tag match with Aja, Watanabe, Kyoko, Asari, and Lioness. Trish/Steph good for Trish Stratus vs. Stephanie friggin MchMahon, but when you have that pretense, it doesn't neccerilly create high expectations.

[Guest The Flying Dutchman]

I know it's pimped fairly regularly, but Angle vs Benoit from WM X7 was one ofthe last WWE matches I remember that featured real, in-depth psychology and archetypal patterns.

 

- Canada vs USA (Hey, it wasn't brought up, but it was there)

- Amateur God vs Pro Wrestling God

- New Hot Shot vs Grizzled Vet

- Moonsault vs Swan Dive Heabutt

- Ankle Lock vs Crossface

- Belly to Belly vs Rolling Germans

 

The whole thing was done to perfection, as the the revolving theme was that Angle has to keep stepping it up because Benoit is schooling him in every area. Benoit beats Angle in an amateur mat session, Angle cheapshots Benoit with a punch. Benoit gets a tapout from the crossface (ref bumped), ankle lock gets Angle nowhere. Moonsault misses, diving headbutt hits. Angle slam gets a kickout, so Angle becomes a desperate man and "desperate men do desperate things", as Angle rolls up Benoit with a handful of tights for the 3.

 

At first the finish pissed me off, but I now realize that it fit in perfectly with the rest of the match.

 

I am in total agreement with you about this match. Everyone seems to forget about it and I consider it tied for match of the year 2001 with Austin vs. Rock. And one of the things that helped make that match (even though it didn't need it) was the commentary by Ross and Heyman. I swear, anyone who wants to get into wrestling should watch that match and you will "get it". I loved how Kurt Angle was outwrestled and to get the advantage again, turned the match into a brawl. Plus, Paul Heyman ranting and raving about leverage and when Angle gets the pin on Benoit what did he do?

 

HELD THE ROPES. It's all about leverage.

 

***** match.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

Angle held the tights, not the ropes...

 

:::: runs and hides ::::

 

[EL DANDY~! 0]

1) YES, I was talking about NA. Geez...I KNOW about all the kick ass AJW, GAEA, and other cool shiznit. I forgot about the little 94 SS gem between Medusa and Bull...I'm stupid. Sorry.

 

2) THAT MATCH RULES. Angle/Benoit was ****3/4, and I loved every second of it.

[Guest cabbageboy]

I dunno, I thought that first Angle/Benoit match was pretty cool but I think you guys are reading a bit too much into it.

 

Here is some unjustly neglected matches: any Shawn/Bulldog match. The SNME 1992 match is a match that left me in utter depression (being the huge Bulldog mark I am), but it was really good from my recollection. I also just saw the KOTR 96 match and it was bad ass as well. A bit too much of Bulldog using the chinlock but otherwise the kind of intense technical/power match you don't see anymore. The sequence of Michaels slipping out of the powerslam and trying his own is amazing for the time period....the whole thing of using other people's finishers didn't get en vogue for another 4 years.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Bret/Piper WM 8 is *the* forgotten Classic - well not so much forgotten as it is just not pimped more often; as most consider it a good match but don't rank it in the top 10 or even 20.

 

I think it is one of the best Wwf matches ever.

[Guest Lord of The Curry]

Rudo- So, are Helen Harts "sammiches" as good as Piper claimed in the pre-match promo?

[Guest Brian]

Rock/Austin was on the same card where they deconstructed the WWE style and Austin's character. I thought Rock and Austin did better because Benoit and Angle seemed short of time and really rushed that finish in. Even though there was definate background to the match it hardly played out other than the fact that Angle couldn't beat Benoit on the mat even though he was an amateur wrestling and thus had to bring the action up and even cheat.

[Guest cabbageboy]

Bret and Piper isn't really an underrated match I don't think. Most people think it is cool. It's probably the best Piper match I've seen actually but it ranks a bit down on the list of classic Bret. That's why most don't consider it one of the best matches ever. Hell it was only the 3rd best PPV match Bret had in 1992! His SS match with Bulldog is a ***** classic and the one with Shawn at S. Series is possibly my favorite of their encounters.

 

No one has mentioned Bret/Bulldog II from that IYH show where Bret did the gory bladejob. Helluva match and completely opposite of the SS 92 classic.

 

How about this one: Juventud vs. Blitzkrieg from Spring Stampede 99. It didn't really hold up that well compared to wild stuff like Styles/Lynn/Loki today, but that finish was just jaw dropping.

[Guest bob_barron]

I gave Bret v. DBS II about ****1/4-****1/2. It started out a bit too slow but was amazing.

 

I rank Bret v. Piper below Bret v. DBS and above HBK v. Bret

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Bret/Piper had it all.

 

-Old vs. Young

-Brawler vs. Technician

-Friend vs. Friend

-False Champ vs. True Champ

 

Add in Piper's relationship with WM. Main Evented WM I. Fought Mr. T WM II. Retired WM III. Came back WM V.

 

Piper never won a major title in the Wwf - this was his first and it was tainted. He would do anything to keep it (he smashed a coco-nut over Snukas head for crying out loud, the man would do anything) - or would he?

 

Bret's playing possum and how it effected the ending.

 

The way they switched styles at the start.

 

The dramatic moment where Roddy had to chose the belt or his long time friend - emotional shit when you consider everything.

 

The only thing which holds this match back is the fact that it went for like 13 minutes - throw another 7 and it wouldn't be overlooked.

 

And yes, even with one slice of baaaloooonie, the sammaches were good.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

What do you mean Survivior Series '92 is "possibly" the best Hart/Michaels match? What's its competition? The studid ladder match, the borring Iron man match, or the one where Bret gets screwed? Hart/Piper was better than any Hart/Michaels match, and possibly better than Hart/Bulldog.

 

Juvi/Blitzkrieg was better than any match involving Ki, Styles, or Lynn from the last few years, save Lo Ki/American Dragon from ECWA's Super 8 Tourni last year. Still, I think a lot of the X division stuff is really overrated and I don't really see the "good" in it that is supposedly the reason everyone raves about it, I assume. Or, maybe people just add a star for every high spot Styles or every stupid kick sequence Ki does.

[Guest bob_barron]

I love when Piper had the ring bell. That was excellent drama.

 

Brain screaming HIT HIM! HIT HIM!

 

And all the fans not wanting Piper to do it cause they knew what Piper was capable of.

 

He just held it there debating in his mind with what seemed like forever.

 

And then he realised- He didn't want the belt if he had to win it like that.

 

So he put the bell down. He may've lost the match but Piper the man knew what was really important in life.

 

It's better to have no belt and integrity then to be champion but who has to cheat to win.

 

Now that is kick ass booking.

[Guest bob_barron]

I gave the ladder match ***1/2 and Iron Man ***3/4 I think.

 

I like the Survivor Series 92 match best myself

[Guest BionicRedneck]

I never really understood why people found the Iron Man Match boring...

 

I agree with Ricky on the X-Division stuff, though.

 

Low Ki

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Because the arm psychology didn't go anywhere. There were about 5 points in the match where a pin or submission would've made perfect sense, Bret's selling (or lack of) got annoying, and the overtime finish was retarded. He can't get a win in an hour, but in those last couple minutes, sure, no problem.

 

I think the SS 92 matchup is much better, around ****1/2ish.

 

and what's wrong with Low ki's kick sequences?

[Guest Nater]

I always liked the switch corners match during the HHH/Rikishi hit austin (face) with Rock.. it was Rock and HHH in the match with the wrong guy in their corner. (fuzzy memory but im sure thats the people)

 

Probably rikishi at his best was working off of HHH.

[Guest Muzz]

One of my favourite matches is Rey Mysterio Jr. vs. Eddie Guerrero at Havoc '97. I didn't even mind hearing Dusty sounds like a retard I was so into it.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Because the arm psychology didn't go anywhere. There were about 5 points in the match where a pin or submission would've made perfect sense, Bret's selling (or lack of) got annoying, and the overtime finish was retarded. He can't get a win in an hour, but in those last couple minutes, sure, no problem.

 

and what's wrong with Low ki's kick sequences?

Exactly. There was never any reason to believe ether guy was going to win, since nothing either guy did worked. It was just a really long "feeling out process" with a few high spots added in for affect. Had they actually sold and gone somewhere to build drama, I'm sure it could have been at least decent.

 

As for Ki's kicks, they look nice most of the time, but often he just does them to be "stiff" without any rhyme or reason beyond that. That's the main reason I can't get into any of the X-Division stuff, because half the guys have been working on their move-set for five plus years, but can't even begin to understand how to use their moves effectively within the confines of a match. There are a few who have it down, but in general most indy guys seem to be heading towards the Chris Daniel's school of nonsensical high spots that don't mean anything.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Kawada kicks more and more stiff. He just aims them and times them without flaw, and sells masterfully.

 

EDIT: to avoid confusiond and flying rocks, I'm not comparing Low Ki to Kawada, just saying, when speaking strictly about -kicks-

[Guest Brian]

Daniels, when focused sometimes, seems to really pull things together. That's better than his counterparts.

[Guest The Flying Dutchman]

Angle held the tights, not the ropes...

 

:::: runs and hides ::::

 

Gah. Brain fart. I was mixing up the ending of Angle/Benoit with Jericho/Benoit, Summerslam 2K.

 

::::Finds and beats the piss out of::::

[Guest godthedog]

Because the arm psychology didn't go anywhere. There were about 5 points in the match where a pin or submission would've made perfect sense, Bret's selling (or lack of) got annoying, and the overtime finish was retarded. He can't get a win in an hour, but in those last couple minutes, sure, no problem.

 

I think the SS 92 matchup is much better, around ****1/2ish.

 

and what's wrong with Low ki's kick sequences?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUGH!

 

how many times have i read this argument lifted from sk's ignorant ass...

 

if you work a body part for the first half of a match & not for the second half, it doesn't take away from the match's greatness. the first 10 minutes of flair/hart at boston garden had flair working the arm, & they never went back to it. then hart worked flair's leg, but after the 30 minute mark they never went back to it. does this somehow make it not a great match? NO. the first 10 minutes of bret/bulldog were spent working davey down with a chinlock & they never went back to it. does this detract from the match's greatness? NO. when a wrestler works a body part for the first half of a match, he doesn't have to be doing it for the win. he can be doing it just to wear his opponent down for the high impact stuff, or he can be doing it just to maintain the advantage in the match. there are COUNTLESS 90s bret hart matches where he works the arm to maintain the advantage, & never goes back to it once the match gets going: bret/owen at wrestlemania, bret/austin at survivor series, etc.

 

and for all the shit bret gets for not selling the arm all the way through the match, he sold it exactly as well as shawn michaels sold all those headlocks: he was still in pain for a while afterward, but after the body part stopped being worked the pain went away. it's not like bret suddenly said "okay, i think i'll stop selling this now" the second after shawn stopped working the arm, he toned it down gradually. watch the match & you'll notice it. austin did the same thing at wrestlemania 13: be in intense pain while the body part is worked, & after you gain the advantage still act hurt for a little while till it's logical for the feeling to come back into it.

 

i won't argue about the lack of falls or the pace hurting the match, but there was nothing wrong with the selling.

[Guest Incandenza]

::makes mental note to never agree with SK, because it will only lead to being accused of lifting it from him::

 

I'm with Agent of Oblivion on this. It wasn't just the lack of selling (though that was a part of it), but the restholds felt like time wasters. And I haven't seen Flair/Hart from Boston, so I cannot comment.

 

EDIT: But I do like the Iron Match in question, I just don't think it was GREAT.

[Guest Brian]

I won't even argue about the psychology leading nowhere, but they spent forty fucking minutes establishing nothing on the mat and building to nothing. The meat of the match is a mere fifteen minutes or so where all the fatigue, everything suddenly left so they could work a hot segment. The mat work itself is nothing special or innovative. You get two guys focused on wearing each other down and yet they have a really quick paced, fast ending to the match. They did a nice job working in the "Michaels can take Bret to the mat" but it did very little for the match, and it was a mistake not to have some sort of fall comning out of that. When you work the arm for thirty plus minutes you're also bound to find some sort of fall out of there, and that's anti-climatic of the match for them not to factor that into anything important at all. And the neck was basically being worked all up until the last ten minutes, so why did Bret abandon it if he thought he could win without a fall (because he did think he won at the end until the match got restarted). Neither made any point to establish that they were going for their big move. There's so many little things wrong with this match that makes it not as good as a it should be.

 

The difference is, godthedog, is that this is a different type of match than the other matches. In this match, a guy can fall from the smallest thing as we've seen in Rock/Triple H and there was no real reason for Bret to abandon the neck (and he didn't until the last six minutes). It just comes off as forty-five minutes of restholds building to a fifteen minute match.

[Guest Brian]

Correction: It doesn't even build to the fifteen minute match.