Just for the sake of arguement...

[Guest Tim Cooke]

The second ladder match was Shawn Michaels PINNACLE as a wrestler. He carried an averag ewrestler through a tough gimmick match while adding globs of psychology playing off of their first match. It is tremendous. Too many people get hung up on one little element of a match (the blown finish) without looking at the full picture.

 

I don't like much of Michaels work. But on that night in Pittsburg, he was the fucking man.

 

As for Flair/Vader, watch it without being a Flair mark. I love Flair. He has helped me LOVE the sport of wrestling. But this match blows.

 

And about winning an argument without bringing in Puro? What does that have to do with anything?

 

Your point with Scorpio only wrestling on singles match has no logical reasoning behind *WHY* the Windham/Scorpio is not better than Flair/Vader.

 

Tim

[cawthon777 0]

The second ladder match was Shawn Michaels PINNACLE as a wrestler. He carried an averag ewrestler through a tough gimmick match while adding globs of psychology playing off of their first match. It is tremendous. Too many people get hung up on one little element of a match (the blown finish) without looking at the full picture.

 

I don't like much of Michaels work. But on that night in Pittsburg, he was the fucking man.

 

As for Flair/Vader, watch it without being a Flair mark. I love Flair. He has helped me LOVE the sport of wrestling. But this match blows.

 

And about winning an argument without bringing in Puro? What does that have to do with anything?

 

Your point with Scorpio only wrestling on singles match has no logical reasoning behind *WHY* the Windham/Scorpio is not better than Flair/Vader.

 

Tim

Hey, just my opinion.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

That's about right.

 

Tim

 

"When you are cornered and don't know what to do, the last thing is to just back down and run away" - some famous person who does quotes

[cawthon777 0]

That's about right.

 

Tim

 

"When you are cornered and don't know what to do, the last thing is to just back down and run away" - some famous person who does quotes

I don't see how I've been corrected.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

"Just cuz" isn't a sufficient arguement. You've been corrected because you're unable to refute any of his contentions. Standard debate logic there. Come up with someone that actually holds weight in a discusion on match quality, and maybe there would be a point to all this.

[Guest lowavenue]

I also prefer the summerslam 95 ladder match to the Wrestlemania 10 one

[Guest HartFan86]

I may have asked this before, but what do you guys rate HBK/Ramon @ Mania 10?

[Guest bob_barron]

*****

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Considering I like the second match significantly more, I definitely wouldn't rate it *****. Also considering that it wasn't even the greatest match on that show, or anywhere close to the greatest that year, I'd say it's a very low-end MOTYC at most. Of course, seeing as that was '94, even a low-end MOTYC is really great. I would say around ****1/4, but that's one of those "from what I remember" ratings. Haven't seen it in about a year.

[Guest Kibagami]

I'd go ****1/2, with the extra 1/2* tacked on sheerly for the originality of the match. It was cutting edge for its time, and it deserves some respect for that.

 

Bret/Owen owns it hands down, though.

 

S.

[cawthon777 0]

"Just cuz" isn't a sufficient arguement. You've been corrected because you're unable to refute any of his contentions. Standard debate logic there. Come up with someone that actually holds weight in a discusion on match quality, and maybe there would be a point to all this.

My arguments have fallen on deaf and biased ears and to debate further would pretty much be useless and wouldn't result in anyone changing their minds.

 

So...just to clear things up:

Flair/Vader - very emotional regardless of what you think of Flair's abilities at the time

HBK/Razor II - drawn out spotfest and personal showcase for HBK

[Guest RickyChosyu]

First,

 

Define biased. No one here has refused an opinion of yours. You, on the other hand, have based your arguements around Scorpio's status in WCW, the Sting/Vader matches being "too similiar" (even though many pointed out the difference in quality between '93 and '94), and Michaels/Ramon being booked "to up the buy-rate" (even though Flair/Vader was very much the same case). So, if you want to use words that you show no signs of understanding, be my guest, but don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

 

Next,

 

How was it emotional? How did the story of "big, mean guy beats up old man" translate into a good match? Furthermore, how does that story alone transcend the abilities of one of the men in the ring? If you watch Vader/Inoki 1/4/96, you'll see Vader take a man who was never near as good in the ring as Flair, beat the stuffing out of him, and carry him to a good match while he's at it. Watch that, then watch Flair/Vader. They're wolrd's appart, and that's becaues Flair had not the knowledge, nor the physical means to work with a wrestler like Vader, or any of them "new generation" workers of the '90's that he faced off with.

 

Define spot fest. To say that word is overused would be an understatement, and I'm not about to buy it as an explanation for a match that not only built off the events of a previous match, but featured one of the best performances Shawn Michaels has pulled off, ever.

 

At least have the decensy to eleborate on your arguements, no matter how flimsy they may be.

[cawthon777 0]

I have elaborated, if you don't agree then you don't agree. Move on.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Care to point out where you elaborated, bud? Simply by browsing through the thread, I can't find a single place where you moved on from your "Scorpio hadn't wrestled many singles matches" and "Sting/Vader matches had the same finishes" arguements that just don't hold any ground in a discusion about match quality. If you think they do, explain why, because I sure as hell don't know what you're trying to prove there.

 

People have brought up many reasons why the matches were still good, and you haven't even tried to argue them. Kind of hard to have a debate with someone who won't debate, wouldn't you say? No point to continuing this any further, from the looks of it.

[Guest benoitrulz4life]

1992: Bret Hart vs. Davey Boy Smith

1993: Ric Flair vs. Vader

1994: Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon

1995: Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon

1996: Shawn Michaels vs. Mankind

1997: Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin

1998: Undertaker vs. Mankind (wait, let me explain!)

1999: Bret Hart vs. Chris Benoit

2000: Triple-H vs. Cactus Jack

2001: Steve Austin vs. Triple-H

2002: No clue

 

I awarded it on how I enjoyed it on first viewing, because that way hindsight doesn't interfere with my selections. Just because the 1998 choice was a little markish doesn't take away how I enjoyed on first viewing. Second or third though, sure the mediocrity becomes clearer on 6/28/98, but I'm not giving Dude Love/Steve Austin the nod because four years ago before I became as smark as I am now, Mankind/Undertaker was the rage in middle school, so there!

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Don't waste your time. He is either:

 

a- a Flair mark who can't look past "Flair" to see how he was fading after 1990.

 

b- just someone who wants to have an oppositte opinion without *thinking* about what others are saying.

 

I HATE Shawn Michaels. But the Ladder Match II was his greatest piece of psychological work.

 

Tim, who won't even point out the HIAC I bias.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I can totally understand the fandom for Flair, but people should ackowledge it as just that, fandom. His matches were most-often mediocre durring the '90s, and I think few people have come to terms with that. People were still giving his work high ratings in 1998, for crying out loud.

[Guest Sassquatch]

Flair's match with Bret at "Souled Out" is the only Flair match that I can think of that people were praising the shit out of when it was obvious that the match was *not* as good as many people initially thought. Other than that match, Flair pretty much missed all of '98 due to his legal problems with WCW. Flair's match with Bischoff at Starrcade '98 was just completely putrid and was trashed by just about everyone who saw the match.

 

I think a better year to pick would have been 2002 because people are *still* thinking that Flair can't have a bad match when it is blatantly obvious that he needs to retire like yesterday.

 

I will always maintain that when Ric was injured in his match with Sasaki in August of 1996 was when he should have called it quits. When Ric came back after he had his shoulder surgery, he was just downright embarrassing to watch and lazy as well and didn't even try to wrestle. He had moments of showing some effort but he pretty much forgot how to dish out offense after he came back from his surgery and just let his opponents kick his ass while he flopped around.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

That's the match I was refering to, Sasquatch. I haven't seen that match praise for his "run" in 2002, aside from Scott Keith one-upping himself in trying to convince the world that Flair/MchMahon is ***1/2.

 

There have been plenty of workers that have held on for way too long, but I can't think of another one that gets more praise for doing nothing.

[Guest Sassquatch]

"That's the match I was referring to, Sasquatch. I haven't seen that match praise for his "run" in 2002, aside from Scott Keith one-upping himself in trying to convince the world that Flair/MchMahon is ***1/2."

 

- Ricky Chosyu

 

 

ThatIdiotSKeith will always stir shit up with his ridiculous ratings and putrid rantings and his star praise of Flair has seeped through over the net in some places. I only chose 2002 because 1998 was a year when Flair only wrestled a handful of times before he was stuck in legal limbo.

 

In some aspects, it was a *good* thing that Flair was locked up in legal Hell so the fans would not have to watch his mailed-in zombie performances.

 

"There have been plenty of workers that have held on for way too long, but I can't think of another one that gets more praise for doing nothing."

 

- Ricky Chosyu

 

 

Currently, Flair is the current champ of the "Old Fuck Needs To Retire And Go Away" federation that houses such luminaries as Hulk Hogan, Terry Funk, Kevin Nash, the Undertaker, Scott Hall and Jerry Lawler.

[Guest hitman2002]

92 - Bret Hart v. Davey Boy Smith: SummerSlam '92

93 - Bret Hart v. Ric Flair: 60-minute Iron-man match

94 - Bret Hart v. Owen Hart: Steel Cage match from SummerSlam '94

95 - Shawn Michaels v. Razor Ramon: Ladder match from SummerSlam '95

96 - Bret Hart v. Steve Austin: Survivor Series 1996

97 - Bret Hart v. Steve Austin: Submission match from WrestleMania 13

98 - Steve Austin v. Dude Love: Over the Edge

99 - Bret Hart v. Chris Beniot: Owen Hart Tribute from Nitro

00 - HHH v. Chris Jericho: Last Man Standing match

01 - Chris Beniot v. Steve Austin: SmackDown

02 - Chris Beniot v. Kurt Angle: Unforgiven

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

92: Pillman/Liger, SuperBrawl II

93: Horsemen/Hollywood Blondes, Clash of the Champions

94: Bret/Owen, WM 10

95: HBK/Ramon, SummerSlam

96: Hart/Austin, Survivor Series

97: Guerrero/Mysterio, Halloween Havoc

98: Austin/Foley, Over the Edge

99: Horsemen/Flock, Spring Stampede

2000: Triple H/Jericho, Fully Loaded

2001: Austin/Benoit, Smackdown

2002: Guerrero/Edge, Unforgiven

[Guest godthedog]

this is the rasputin of old school threads.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

If you don't want it to stay at the top, replying to it isn't going to solve your problem.

[Guest godthedog]

never said i didn't want it to. just making an observation.

[Guest Midnight Express83]

As a major flair mark...I will say this. He has had maybe 4 or 5 good matches in the mid to late 90s. by good I say ***

With Steamboat vs Blondes-93

vs Sting-"Unifing" the World titles-94

vs Savage- thunderdome-96

vs Konnan- 96(I am am a major Flair fan and HATE K-Dog)

vs Sting on the last Nitro(mainly because it was the last WCW match and it was a fun but crappy match, so more historical/mark out than anything else)-01

 

Mostly his promos from this time is what makes him great. And he should have been a manager from 94 on.

[Guest bob_barron]

He also had a great match v. Eddy at Hog Wild 96, the Marquis of Queensbury series with Regal and great match v. Bret at Souled Out 98.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

How do you define "great"? If Bret and Flair couldn't get it together in '93, how exactly were they going to produce a great performance five years later? How great can a match like Regal/Flair be if it's nothing but filler matwork with no purpose behind it?

 

Flair's work in the ninties consisted of doing his standard spots to fool people into thinking he was still great, and flopping around to kill time for the rest of the match. He had no reason to keep wrestling after '93, as far as I'm concerned.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Are you talking about the Bret/Flair Ironman or the Saskatoon match? Or both?

[Guest bob_barron]

I define great as a match that I can get into and that at the end- I know I had just witnessed something special.

 

I've never seen any Flair v. Bret matches from 1993 but I think they're 1998 Souled Out match was the second best of the three matches I've seen of them.

 

The matwork with Regal did have purpose as they were trying to you know- win the rounds. So by controlling on the mat- you win the round and win the match.

 

The Hog Wild was what I would call a 'fun' match. He made Eddy look like a million bucks and it was fun seeing Eddy kick the shit out of him.

 

All three of those matches I would ****