Why 6/3/94 is the greatest match ever...

[EL DANDY~! 0]

I know people pimp anything Ric Flair and Ricky Steamboat to death, and I also know they pimp anything these two have done to death. People can go on and on about how great Austin/Hart or Hart/Hart or any other match can possibly live up to the great expectations of this match.

 

For 35 minutes and 50 seconds, Mitsuharu Misawa and Toshiaki Kawada engaged in not only a war of attrition, or a war of psychology, but a war of HATE. Hate for the fact that Misawa has held that title for so long...and that Kawada had never beaten Misawa at all. You just listen to crowd for each person when they came out. Misawa and Kawada got equal chants. You will NEVER see that in North America. What I mean by that is this. When Misawa came out, EVERYBODY cheered for him. Ditto for Kawada. The heat for this is unreal. Kawada is a bad-ass, Misawa is a bad-ass, and everybody knows it. Kawada doesn't even make a facial expression until the match actually starts. He's so stoic and so great that you can't help but think that going in, he'd have the big chance of beating Misawa. EVERY MOVE, the crowd oohs and ahhs. When that bell rings, they burn holes through each other and the crowd is so totally torn that it makes Hogan/Warrior look like NOTHING AT ALL. You can't even decipher a clearer chant. Back and forth. EVERY SHOT being stiff. You can tell it's on the fly when you realize the fact that Misawa just falls backwards after a kick to his ear that makes his eardrum bleed, or when Misawa gets an elbow and knocks Kawada on his ass. Or when Misawa breaks his neck on the Dangerous Backdropper, and then breaks Kawada's neck twice with an OBSCENE German and the Tiger Driver '91 to seal his fate. It is the greatest story ever told in the ring. It's one of the stiffest, psychological battles ever, and the fact that the crowd heat is unbeliveable and that the war is brought HARD to the ring makes it that much better. Misawa and Kawada should have been receiving Christmas Cards every year since 1994 for this match alone. If you've never seen this match, and you think that it can NEVER live up to the expectations of the match you hold as the greatest ever (as I had with Flair/Steamboat), you need to watch it, just to watch the two greatest in All Japan at the time pull out ALL THE STOPS, and keep going regardless. Just an awesome awesome match. Let nobody else tell you other wise.

[Guest wolverine]

Go watch Toyota/Yamada vs. Kansai/Ozaki 11/26/92.

[Guest mesepher]

no mention of the Public Enemy vs the Ganstas?

talk about a scientific wrestling fan's dreammatch

[Guest Dmann2000]

I'm thinking the way you guys build up that match there's no way when I finally see it that it'll live up to expectations

[Guest La Parka Es Mi Papa]

I finally saw the match, and honestly, I really don't see what's so great about it. Sure, it had good heat, and the suplexes and the Tiger Driver looked brutal, as did Misawa's forearms to the face, but any match that goes a half an hour or longer needs to hold my attention for the whole time for it to be good. This match didn't.

[Guest HartFan86]

I saw the match 2 days ago and it's stiff as hell, but it's not the greatest match ever. I said "HOLY SHIT" about 5 times in it (especially at the finish), but there's a lot of stuff that didn't make sense. The pyschology was good, but it had nothing to do with the finish. Maybe in Japan it was the greatest match, but not ever in the history of pro wrestling.

 

And shouldn't this be in the Puro folder?

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Have any of you who have watched 6/3/94 seen any of their prior matches (10/92, 3/93, 7/93) or some tag matches (7/2/93, 12/3/93)? Do you even know the backstory?

 

And the finish not making sense with the psych? Maybe the rube comment of the year.

 

Tim

[Guest wolverine]

When it comes to All Japan, I've seen it all, and Misawa-Kawada 6/3/94 is the best one-on-one match I've ever seen, from any promotion, ever.

 

However, I believe two matches are better than it:

 

1. Toyota/Yamada vs. Kansai/Ozaki (AJW 11/26/92)

2. Misawa/Akiyama vs. Kawada/Taue (All Japan 12/6/96)

 

Just my take....

[Guest RickyChosyu]

And shouldn't this be in the Puro folder?

General Wrestling applies to all forms. Nothing is off limits here, I'm pretty sure.

 

And yes, it's best to know the backstory. Obviously, if you don't know anything about what lead to the match, it's just going to seem like lots of stiffness to you, and you'll miss the boat on why the match is important, and what drives both guys. Doing that is comparible to a Japanese wrestling fan watching puroresu their entire life, and then watching Rock/Austin without ever seeing a single WWF show. I'm not comparing Rock/Austin to Misawa/Kawada, but if you don't get the backstory, and more importantly, the naunces of the style and everything that drives the wrestlers to behave the way they do, why are you even watching the match?

[Guest HartFan86]

Have any of you who have watched 6/3/94 seen any of their prior matches (10/92, 3/93, 7/93) or some tag matches (7/2/93, 12/3/93)?  Do you even know the backstory?

 

No.

 

I'm not comparing Rock/Austin to Misawa/Kawada, but if you don't get the backstory, and more importantly, the naunces of the style and everything that drives the wrestlers to behave the way they do, why are you even watching the match?

 

Because all I hear is "THIS MATCH IS GREAT, GO WATCH IT" and I never hear "Find these matches to see how it built up, then watch the blowoff to see how the feud started and ended." and considering I don't know shit about Puro, I guess the reason I watched it without knowing the buildup was because of you guys (Not directly you, but you get my point).

 

And what does rube mean? It's not in my dictonary.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

It's been my experience that everytime somone asks about 6/3/94, those who have seen it stress the importance of knowing the style, backstory, themes of previous matches that it builds upon, ect.

[Guest wolverine]

BretHart4Ever: Since you admitted your ignorance to puro, you really have no business saying what you did in your first post without seeing more first. It's called "common sense" and "diplomacy."

[Guest J*ingus]

BretHart4Ever: Since you admitted your ignorance to puro, you really have no business saying what you did in your first post without seeing more first. It's called "common sense" and "diplomacy."

Who are you to tell him what he does and does not have the right to say? It sounds like you're trying to dictate his opinion for him.

[Guest HartFan86]

BretHart4Ever:  Since you admitted your ignorance to puro, you really have no business saying what you did in your first post without seeing more first.  It's called "common sense" and "diplomacy."

Ignorance? Just because I didn't know these guys had a feud that led up to this match means I have no business to have an opinion? I seriously didn't know they had a feud and I'm sure I would think more of it if I had seen the buildup...but once again, I'm just starting to get into Puro and I didn't know they had a feud. I figured they just had one big match.

 

And if you want to talk about ignorance, what if I said "Puro Sucks", what would you care? I obviously don't feel that way, but it could be my opinion and I'm entitled to it if it's ignorant or not.

 

And Ricky, I'm sure people have said to get the matches building up the feud first, but I have never read it. All I heard was people say "Get 6/3/94."

 

Edit: Thank you Jingus, you pretty much summed up what I just said.

[Guest godthedog]

It's been my experience that everytime somone asks 6/3/94, those who have seen it stress the importance of knowing the style, backstory, themes of previous matches that it builds upon, ect.

i'll agree. i've seen it & thought nothing special of it, and i haven't seen anything that lead up to it (i've read the story & stuff, but reading about the story and seeing it unfold are entirely different). i've come to the conclusion that it's like 'ulysses': TONS of levels going on and a high water mark for its medium, but without some reference point you're just lost.

 

i think it would be appropriate now to pimp 'ulysses' as the greatest work of literature in the history of human thought. go read it. now. all of you.

[Guest godthedog]

BretHart4Ever:  Since you admitted your ignorance to puro, you really have no business saying what you did in your first post without seeing more first.  It's called "common sense" and "diplomacy."

Who are you to tell him what he does and does not have the right to say? It sounds like you're trying to dictate his opinion for him.

EDIT: too ashamed of my fuck-up to let you read it.

[Guest J*ingus]

i think it would be appropriate now to pimp 'ulysses' as the greatest work of literature in the history of human thought. go read it. now. all of you.

I tried. And failed. Are we all really sure that Joyce wrote in English, and not some other arcane tongue invented by himself?

[Guest godthedog]

actually, finnegans wake was the one written in the made-up language. i loved that one too, but 'ulysses' is lots better.

 

try plowing through it again, with a reader's guide; i used 'james joyce A to Z'. i got about halfway through each chapter then read the chapter summary in the guide before finishing it, to see exactly what was going on & what to look for. it takes a lot of getting used to--you basically have to learn how to read joyce as you go--but the rewards are amazing. by the time you get to the 'circe' chapter it just flows and you don't need the guide at all.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

godthedog: I'm not sure what you're talking about, since Jingus wasn't even reffering to me when he said that. I'll just assume that it was an under-handed comment on your part and leave it at that, I guess.

 

BretHart4ever: You're allowed to have your own opinion (ill-fated or not) but if you want anyone to care about what you say, you shouldn't talk about things that you don't know. Yes, the internet is a breeding ground for people who just voice their opinions, regardless of how valid they are, but if you actually want to take part in an intelligent debate, know the material. It's not that much to ask of someone. Wolverine never said you couldn't have an opinion, he just said your opinion was ignorant due to your lack of knowledge, and should be retracted. He's right, but at the end of the day, you can do whatever you want.

 

It would have been wise for you to do at least a little research on the subject of All Japan Pro Wrestling before you jumped right into 6/3/94. Misawa/Kawada was the definitive feud of AJPW in the ninties, and it's not at all hard to get info on it. I guess those who recomended it to you didn't mention that. You may have just been a victim of circumstance, but if you had simply asked in the Puroresu folder, I'm sure that everyone there would have said "you need to see this stuff first" and directed you to all the material you needed to see before checking out 6/3/94. Like I said, that was my expierience.

[Guest godthedog]

wow, don't i feel like an asshole. sorry, didn't see that was wolverine's comment.

[Guest J*ingus]

Just curious: did any of you actually see the buildup to 6/3/94 before the match? It seems like everyone's story is one of "I saw it, wasn't terribly impressed, but then a year later after I knew the backstory I saw it again and was blown away".

[EL DANDY~! 0]

Yeah. See, a lot of the matches people think are FUCKING GREAT are that great because they know the backstory. If you know the backstory to this match, and then you watch the match, you will go fucking crazy. I swear. That's what I'm trying to say.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

I didn't see the build up before I saw the match the first time. I thought it was cool but couldn't get *why* it was so cool. The match is as deep as anything I have seen in wrestling, minus 12/6/96 possibly.

 

People love to pimp the shit out of matches that use moves that have meaning to everything. This is one match that actually accomplishes that goal.

 

Th eignorance comes from something like this. People complain about having to see the build up to the match. They think the match should be great on its own. Well, technically it is. My question to you, would you go buy a sequel to a book or see a sequel to a movie before seeing the original? It wouldn't make much sense.

 

Tim

[Guest Lord of The Curry]

Well, what if somebody knows the backstory, has seen the match and still thinks that it isn't all it's cracked up to be?

 

' Cause I have.

 

I've been to Justin Baisdens site (rollinggermans.8m.com), read the backstory and seen the match. I know the history. The match still isn't the shit. Then again, neither is Flair vs Steamboat, as Steamboats arm work did nothing as Flair used a friggin cradle to win the match, not to mention that Steamboat only hit the double-chickenwing once and Flair got to the ropes in 3 seconds.

[Guest Retro Rob]

BretHart4ever: You're allowed to have your own opinion (ill-fated or not) but if you want anyone to care about what you say, you shouldn't talk about things that you don't know. Yes, the internet is a breeding ground for people who just voice their opinions, regardless of how valid they are, but if you actually want to take part in an intelligent debate, know the material. It's not that much to ask of someone. Wolverine never said you couldn't have an opinion, he just said your opinion was ignorant due to your lack of knowledge, and should be retracted. He's right, but at the end of the day, you can do whatever you want.

1) You can't call an opinion ignorant because it is just that, an opinion. Sure you could disagree with it, but you can't really rate an opinion.

 

2) Who are you to say that his opinion SHOULD be retracted? The fact of the matter is, most people who watch the match in question, DO NOT know of the backstory, so it is good to hear what a non-Puro fan thinks of it. Reason being, I'm not a big Pruo fan, so I would like to know what someone like me thinks of the match because that is probably how I will look at it.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

OK. Is there a match that everybody can agree on that is ***** and worthy of being one of the greatest matches of all time? If there is...tell me ALL about it...

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"I've been to Justin Baisdens site (rollinggermans.8m.com), read the backstory and seen the match. I know the history."

 

You still do not have the full picture. How much AJPW have you seen? Do you understand the style? It is kind of like saying Lucha is all about highspots when Santo, Juve, Fuerza, etc have their own brand of deep psych.

 

You need to understand and view Choshu's Army invading AJPW, the Tsuruta/Tenyru feud, the Tsuruta v Misawa and Co feud, and then their feud.

 

Reading is a great step (though Baisiden isn't the best source for anything wrestling, esp puroresu). But then you need to view and study stuff. Probably too much work though.

 

Tim

[Guest Lord of The Curry]

Eh, I don't mind reading...link me up to something that will help me learn a little more then Justins site.

 

And yes, I know the AJPW psych, I know about the army and whatnot....but I'd still like to learn more.

[Guest HartFan86]

BretHart4ever: You're allowed to have your own opinion (ill-fated or not) but if you want anyone to care about what you say, you shouldn't talk about things that you don't know. Yes, the internet is a breeding ground for people who just voice their opinions, regardless of how valid they are, but if you actually want to take part in an intelligent debate, know the material. It's not that much to ask of someone. Wolverine never said you couldn't have an opinion, he just said your opinion was ignorant due to your lack of knowledge, and should be retracted. He's right, but at the end of the day, you can do whatever you want.

1) You can't call an opinion ignorant because it is just that, an opinion. Sure you could disagree with it, but you can't really rate an opinion.

 

2) Who are you to say that his opinion SHOULD be retracted? The fact of the matter is, most people who watch the match in question, DO NOT know of the backstory, so it is good to hear what a non-Puro fan thinks of it. Reason being, I'm not a big Pruo fan, so I would like to know what someone like me thinks of the match because that is probably how I will look at it.

At least someone is in the same boat as me...

 

And Tim, I'm not complaining at all about reading the backstory of the match, I'm actually quite intrested. You mentioned before a few matches, but what should I find to watch the buildup of the feud?

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

Well it's reasons like this that I think people should start with Misawa/Kawada's 95 match, since it's their most exciting and you don't need to know shit about the backstory to know it's great.

 

 

6/3/94 is considered the greatest Men's Singles match of all time, not because of the stiffness, and the holy shit moves or even it's flawless execution. It's because every single move or strike serves a purpose and is a throw back to a previous match, which builds perhaps to one of the most dramatic and emotional endings in history. Even the Sleeper countered to a Backdrop has a much deeper symbolic meaning, as I stated on another thread.