The Top 10 Wrestlers of All Time!!!

[Guest J*ingus]

So I suppose I imagined all that stuff about how wrestlers don't care about telling stories with their matches?

Yeah, I said something to that effect, though not that all-encompassing. However,

JINGUS says that if you don't know the wrestlers, you don't know what their true intentions are.

certainly never crossed my lips. Christ, that's almost as bad as "you don't know anything about it unless you've been in the ring".

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"The problem is thus: I know wrestlers, lots of them. And for the most part, none of them put anywhere NEAR that much thought into their matches. 99% of the time, any given match was thrown together the night of the show, without a whole lot of thought about how it fit into the existential scheme of things. They tend to be more concerned with things like making it to the building, having something to eat, dealing with the political bullshit which inevitably infests every locker room, having a not-bad match, trying not to break any bones while doing it, getting paid afterward, finding a decent place to sleep, and maybe finding some booze, sex, or drugs on the way there. That's the truth about wrestling. They don't care as much about the in-ring portion of it as some people assume they should. And who is the critic to tell the artist that their way of life is wrong?"

- Jingus

 

"JINGUS says that if you don't know the wrestlers, you don't know what their true intentions are."

- Tim

 

"certainly never crossed my lips. Christ, that's almost as bad as "you don't know anything about it unless you've been in the ring."

- Jingus

 

The whole first quote has so many problems (not grammatically, I don't go to that level when needing to back up a point that I am making because I don't have anything to back up). The first is this:

 

"99% of the time, any given match was thrown together the night of the show, without a whole lot of thought about how it fit into the existential scheme of things."

 

That fits hand in hand with "if you don't know the wrestlers, you don't what their true motivations in the ring are."

 

"And who is the critic to tell the artist that their way of life is wrong?"

 

That sentence makes me think of boy Lance in May of 2001. But that never came from your mouth.

 

Tim, who will cop to liking Jericho's WCW work but would never go to bat for it as anything ****+ wise.

[Guest J*ingus]

The whole first quote has so many problems (not grammatically, I don't go to that level when needing to back up a point that I am making because I don't have anything to back up).

What problems? Tell me, since you seem to love pointing out faults.

 

"99% of the time, any given match was thrown together the night of the show, without a whole lot of thought about how it fit into the existential scheme of things."

 

That fits hand in hand with "if you don't know the wrestlers, you don't what their true motivations in the ring are."

 

Um, how does the first statement supposedly lead to the second one? They seem like two completely different concepts to me. (And I could go into a rant about how do any of us really know what our true motivations in life are, but I won't.)

 

"And who is the critic to tell the artist that their way of life is wrong?"

 

That sentence makes me think of boy Lance in May of 2001.  But that never came from your mouth.

 

No it didn't, because of a crucial difference which is one of the main reasons I get so frustrated at times. Some of you guys post your opinions as if it was God's own infallible truth, and if anyone argues with it, they're either ignorant or just plain foolish. I've been told that my opinions were flat-out wrong on several occassions, which kinda pisses me off. Say anything you want, just preface it with the words "I think" or at least make some kind of effort to understand that different fans think and react differently to the same matches.

 

Tim, who will cop to liking Jericho's WCW work but would never go to bat for it as anything ****+ wise.

 

Jingus, who might give one of his matches with Malenko that much, it's been a little while since he saw them.

[Guest Banky]

I may be in the minority, but I would rather enjoy the work at hand then criticially assess it and disect every move. If a match entertains me, that is all I need. I feel many have that same outlook, hence why Angle got so many votes. Also, the lack of japan love on this poll lends to the fact many don't have the resources, or the money to check this stuff out. I have seen the work of Misawa, Kobashi, and Kawada in the opne video I've over ordered on the internet, and I liked it - BUT, I wouldn't spend 20 and the risk of getting ripped off.

 

For my money, Angle and Guerrero's work suits me just fine.

[Guest dreamer420]

#1- Chris Benoit

Number of #1 Votes- 1

Total Number of Points- 107

 

"A "machine" that used smarts as well as superior ability to out-wrestler his opponents harshly and convincingly. Came into his own by out-performing his idol and doing so everywhere he went. By becoming so adaptive, he knew how to respond to almost any kind of wrestler and get the most out of them, laying the groundwork instantly and letting his opponent fill in the gaps that he needed. The best example of this was the J-Cup finals Vs. Sasuke, where Benoit got the most out of GS than anyone ever has or will. Awesome selling, great athletisism, and a subtle arrogance that went with his beatings that cannot be denied."

- RickyChosyu

Scott Keith has ruined wrestling for the internet.

 

Bret should have been first.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

This is a message board. If you aren't smart enough to complete the thought process of "he's saying that, so it must be what he thinks", then your problem lies with common sense. If I say "Benoit was a much better overall worker than Hart" it's obviously my opinion, because it's an opinion statement. Most people should have picked this up in middle school. Demanding a prefix before such statements is like demanding the addition of prefixes like "I know" before "the sky is blue." It's completely unnecesary.

 

Your opinion can be ill-conceived, but it's still your opinion. If you have nothing to back it up, people won't listen to it, but it's an opinion, all the same.

 

Back on topic, I fail to see the corelation between "they don't plan things out until the night of" and "it has no deeper meaning." Just because they haven't spent hours planning out the match doesn't mean they can't tell meaningfull, compelling, and symbolic stories. Wrestlers are basically actors, and the ones who play them the best and know how to interact with other characters most effectively tell good stories. Whether or not they followed a precise plan is irrelevant. It's performance art.

[Guest Jubuki]

I didn't vote on this. Therefore, it sucks. A lot. Here's how it is.

 

One-Match Performance(s) Top Ten:

 

1. Akira Hokuto

2. Toshiaki Kawada

3. Kenta Kobashi

4. Kiyoshi Tamura

5. Volk Han

6. Mitsuharu Misawa

7. Nobuhiko Takada

8. Stan Hansen

9. Mayumi Ozaki

10. Tsuyoshi Kohsaka

 

 

Peak of Their Career Top Ten:

 

1. Akira Hokuto

2. Kenta Kobashi

3. Toshiaki Kawada

4. Jumbo Tsuruta

5. Nobuhiko Takada

6. Volk Han

7. Mitsuharu Misawa

8. Eddy Guerrero

9. Ric Flair

10. Shinjiro Ohtani

 

 

All-Time Top Ten:

 

1. Jumbo Tsuruta

2. The Destroyer

3. Toshiaki Kawada

4. Akira Hokuto

5. Jaguar Yokota

6. Jushin Liger

7. Mitsuharu Misawa

8. Kenta Kobashi

9. Harley Race

10. El Hijo del Santo

 

 

THERE YOU HAVE IT.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I'm a little confused on "peak of their career" vs. "one-match performance." If Kawada's best performance out-does Kobashi's best performance, how could Kobashi's peak have been higher?

 

I realize that it's semantics, but I'd still like to know.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Just out of curiousity, what makes you feel that Harley Race was that good? I'm not very familiar with stuff from a different era, but I always heard many wild stories about him.

[Guest Jubuki]

Peak is over a long period of time - say, a year, 9 months, like that. Whenever they were doing their best work night in, night out. For example, Kobashi's '93 is better than Kawada's '93 match for match, but Kobashi's best single-match performance ever (vs. Stan that year) isn't as good as Kawada's best single-match performance ever (take your pick of the 6/3/94 Misawa, the 12/3 RWTL, or the Albright 10/25/95).

 

And Harley Race was a motherfucking King of Kings. Had an enormous variety on offense for the time period - maybe the widest of his time - worked good matches with a lot of opponents, could mix brawling and wrestling superbly, and was better than Flair head-to-head in nearly every aspect I can think of except for the Carrying Worthless Choads area. And he was about the only worker I've ever seen that *pushed* Jumbo, the best wrestler we're going to see, to have a better match. However, he never quite had a stretch of working with one opponent the way Flair had Steamboat to work with, at least from what I've seen. Had Jumbo wrestled Race as frequently in the late 70's or 80/81, I might have a different opinion of him.

[Guest WrestlingDeacon]

Since Jubuki had a problem with the list overall, I must say that I have a problem with his list being mainly Japanese wrestlers. I myself never got into the Japanese style or watched a lot of Japanese wrestling, but why discount a good portion of the non-Japanese? It would seem to me that Jubuki is attracted to the Japanese style above all others, which is fine, but then he can't claim that his list is some definitive list and the one compiled here sucked as he does above. His list is merely his opinion on the best Japanese workers and likewise, there is nothing wrong with those of us who enjoy or are more familiar with the American style.

 

However, I do like the idea of pinpointing someone's career peak and saying how that compares to others. I can also vouch that Harley Race was a very innovative man for his time and a very sound grappler overall.

[Guest wolverine]

Hey, that's your fault. If it's an all-time list, it's an all-time list. Deal with it. Or watch more wrestling - one or the other.

[Guest Jubuki]

No, mine's pretty damned definitive, as I gravitate towards the GOOD WRESTLING. Writing off what I have to say based on 'style' is so 1999. Go back and watch the matches, kiddies - the people I named were having better matches than most of the people who made the list. That's as easy, clear, and simple as it's gonna get for anyone.

 

That, and a sense of humor wouldn't hurt some of you folks.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Decon, he listed an American as the second greatest wrestler of all time, which I would say pretty much negates any bias towards the Japanese.

 

And there's far more problems with the list than it's obvious and inherent bias towards American workers. Like I said, even if we were compiling a list of only NA wrestlers, Angle would have no place in the top ten. No way. Take that and add the fact that few here have seen much besides late eighties and early ninties US material, and it becomes apparent that "best wrestlers ever" is a pretty ridiculous statement to stick onto a list like this.

 

I enjoy good North American wrestling quite a bit, but you're in no possition to call anyone biased since you carry the obvious one of watching mostly U.S. material.

[Guest WrestlingDeacon]

See, no one is getting what I'm saying, so I'll just shut up. Everyone is stuck in there own little "my opinion is the word of God" musings. Any list is just opinion, even if it's formed by a group, then it's group opinion. And if said group is only familiar with the color blue and you ask them to name their favorite colors then all you are going to get are shades of blue.

 

And to Ricky, there's a big difference between being biased and being unfamiliar. I said I never watched much Japanese wrestling, mostly because I don't have an outlet for it. Bias is being familiar with both types and outly favoring one over the other without objectly saying that both have certain merits. Also the Destroyer might be American, but his fame and style is Japenese. When I say Japenese wrestlers, I mean guys who primarily work in that part of the world regardless of nationality. I would consider Vader to be a Japanese wrestler.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

*Looks back at the list*...JAGUAR YOKOTA'S ONLY VOTE CAME FROM ME??? For shame...for shame...

[Guest J*ingus]

I've heard so much about Yokota, but have never seen any of her stuff (it's pretty obscure, hardly anyone but Lynch or the DVD boys have it), so what made her so great?

[Guest wolverine]

According to some, she is pound-for-pound the greatest wrestler of all-time.

 

I also haven't been introduced to her work as of yet, though when I am, the first thing I'm sure to get would be the legendary clip of the 8/22/85 match with Lioness Asuka - which I've heard bandied about in some circles as possibly the best match of the 1980's.

[Guest Jubuki]

Uhh...wrestling is wrestling - the basic components of it are the same whether it's U.S., Japanese, or Lucha. The effective labels that aren't applied enough are GOOD and BAD. And 'bias', as it were, is characterized by NOT being familiar with any and all forms and doling out comments based upon less than complete information. The least you could do is know what the word means before using it.

 

And speaking on the topic of less than complete information, the Destroyer had made a big name for himself in CA years before going to Japan. He was also a pretty big component in the AWA in the early 70's before beginning to work for Baba full-time. If you knew anything at all about his feud with Freddie Blassie, or had known about his time as Dr. X in AWA, you'd know his "style," as you so vaguely put it, was decidedly all his own. Japanese, American, old-school, doesn't matter what label's on it - what matters is that he was great at what he did.

 

Another case in point: Steve Williams. When someone says, "Steve Williams was a great worker," I would be inclined to agree with them. But do I agree because of his Mid-South/UWF body of work, or do I agree because of his 93-95 AJ body of work? Either one is acceptable; I've seen enough of both to be impressed by both ends. But why would I limit myself like that in the first place? Either Doc was a very good worker, or he wasn't. I'd rather see someone examine the periods where he was or wasn't good than see someone take the easy - and ultimately faulty - road and say, "Well, he was working in Japan, it can't be compared." Yes it can - just watch the matches.

 

And Yokota was a precursor to nearly everyone who was noteworthy during the 90's - Jag was working at a '92-'95 kind of level in the early & mid-80's. Granted, the state of the art took a pretty drastic jump forward after her retirement and just before her first comeback, but the pace she kept and the general structure of her matches were a blueprint for bigger and better things from others down the road. That probably had a lot to do with the fact that she trained them, but the fact remains that that kind of work was damned solid. She was also a very small woman who had no problems keeping up with bigger opponents like Masami or Asuka, which is an impressive task when you see just how small she is & was. Masami...now there's a great no one talks about enough...

[Guest RickyChosyu]

See, no one is getting what I'm saying, so I'll just shut up. Everyone is stuck in there own little "my opinion is the word of God" musings. Any list is just opinion, even if it's formed by a group, then it's group opinion.

 

Oh, I'm getting it, alright. I'm also getting the feeling that you haven't read the rest of the post, because you're repeating the entire "don't state opinions as facts" arguement that was already brought up in this very thread.

 

And to Ricky, there's a big difference between being biased and being unfamiliar.

 

That's a distinction without a difference. If I watch two matches and like one more, does that make me a biased person? No, and it's silly to accuse someone of being biased if they have seen a good amount of material from a great number of sources.

 

As an aside, how many women did Yakota train who went on to become prominent roles in AJW? I've heard she was incredibly influencial in this area, but I can't find a list of who she actually trained.

[Guest Jubuki]

It's pretty clear just from watching footage that she had a hand in training Asuka, Toyota, Hasegawa, Minami, Hokuto, Shimoda, Yoshida, Yamada, and Takako, and there are bound to be others. There's no definitive list anywhere, but she was the head trainer around the turn of the decade.

[Guest wolverine]

Did Bob Yazawa train Momoe Nakanishi?

[Guest Jubuki]

Maybe he gave her hair tips.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

10)Owen

9)Steamboat

8)Angle

7)Austin

6)Kawada

5)Lyger/Billington

4)Misawa

3)Bret

2)Flair

1)Benoit

 

Well I'am a little disappointed how the list turned out. Though very good workers, I don't think Steamboat and Owen belong on a top ten list. You could make a good argument that Angle is the best worker in the WWE right now, but he is hardly one of the ten greatest wrestlers in history. Dynamite Kid should be rated high if the list is based on influence, but there have been so many better juniors since him. Flair and Bret being rated higher than Kawada while Jumbo and many Joshi workers didn't make the list can best be contributed to a lack of enough viewing like other's have said. I didn't rank Yokota or several wrestlers for that very reason. I've seen worse lists.