austin bigger than rock?only a crakhed would agree

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Basically what I'm saying is this match is the equivelent of Hogan vs. Warrior.

 

Back then...Warrior was a wildly popular wrestler...who may end up being an Icon one day...but failed when trying to carry the ball.

 

Since Austin was around...Rock hasn't carried the ball yet.

 

The one chance he could have had was taken by HHH in 2000.

 

Look at the major storylines of 2000 and tell me if there is a common thread:

 

McMahon-Helmsly era

HHH retires Foley

A heel leaves Mania with the belt

HHH vs. Rock

HHH/Angle/Steph

Who was behind Austin's run down?  HHH.

 

 

My opinion of the Rocks place in the WWF hasn't changed just because the WWF tells me he's one of the 2 biggest Icons.  Rock may well go down in history as one of the 2 biggest icons...but flash back 12 years...you could say the same thing about Warrior.

[Guest the_hurricane]

for the most part I agree with some of these replies because rock is bigger than austin all around.,....If anything the main thing that rock has not done to be bigger is beat ausstin...He has never beat austin but that time will come....By the way in 2000 the rock was the one that carried the wwf...So he did carry it.......In october 2000 after the incident where rock screwed austin against HHH by hitting him with the sledgehammer accidentally, on raw the next night austin called the rock out....if you remember at that time the fans were cheering rock way over austin and especially when austin said we can do this right now, all the fans chanted rocky's name and was erupting when rock was walking down the ramp til HHH interrrupted....

 

At that time austin was getting stale and the rock was really the hottest face around which was why russo wanted austin to turn heel in which austin did not want to do it.....

 

I knew austin had a bad neck and needed surgery but I strongly believe he decided to have it at that time in november 99 simply because the polls themselves all voted for rocky way over austin to win the Triple Threat match at survivor series......Not only that at that time rock was the top merchandise seller and more popular with the fans as that confrontation proved it....

 

So to save his face character....I believe austin chose at that time to have his surgery since he clearly was not the top star anymore at that time.........I clearly believe that.,,,

 

But for the most part, I am glad a lot of people agree with me and I just had to get that out of my chest.....Thanks.....

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I'm going to reply to you with an excerpt from my previous post.

 

Look at the major storylines of 2000 and tell me if there is a common thread:

 

McMahon-Helmsly era

HHH retires Foley

A heel leaves Mania with the belt

HHH vs. Rock

HHH/Angle/Steph

Who was behind Austin's run down?  HHH.

[Guest the_hurricane]

not only that but the wwf's highest ratings were in the 2000 era when austin was out....I believe the highest overrun rating was the match between rock/jericho vs benoit/HHH which I believe scored a 9.9 rating....The highest rating austin ever got it was a 9.1 when he fought the undertaker....As a matter of fact if you look at the obvious, the 2000 era was the hottest point for the wwf......By far...and the Rock and Foley were the main reasons especially foley's role as comissioner....I strongly believe that those times were the mmost entertaining times in the wwf which is why the ratings were so high........

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Apparently I need to do it again

 

 

 

Look at the major storylines of 2000 and tell me if there is a common thread:

 

McMahon-Helmsly era

HHH retires Foley

A heel leaves Mania with the belt

HHH vs. Rock

HHH/Angle/Steph

Who was behind Austin's run down?  HHH.

[Guest the_hurricane]

HHH has nothing to do with this, he is by far overrated and was pushed down our throats to get over which is why he was involved in the storylines.........Rock is 10 times the name and not only that but a couiple weeks ago when rock teamed up with HHH to go against angle and jericho where rock saved HHH in the beginning, HHH had a confrontation with rock and rock made fun of him to a huge pop.....Which was said that in the back HHH was not happy with that and did not want to do a promo with the rock again.........Rock can easliy get people to boo HHH if he wanted to and he proved it at athat segment......HHH to me is by far the most overrated wrestler and his face character absolutely sux....Like everyone wants him to turn heel.....But this is not a HHH post.....

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Rock didn't carry shit in 2000.

 

That's what HHH has to do with it.

 

HHH was the centerpeice of the WWF in 2000.

 

Look at the Rock's career (which can be found at the bottom of the last page)

 

He has never been the #1 guy.

[Guest The Fett]

The fact that Rock was not in every single major storyline in the company doesn't mean he didn't carry the WWF. Rock was still easily the most over guy in the company. He was still a major reason people watched the WWF. I even remember stories of people demanding refunds to house shows whenever Rock was was not in the shows.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Good God.

 

Did everyone just block out 2000, and then recreate it by what they wanted?

 

HHH and Steph DOMINATED TV time and storylines.

 

The Rock was the #1 face.

 

BUT DID NOT CARRY THE COMPANY.

[Guest The Fett]

The problem is you're making it seem as if Triple H was the sole reason for the WWF's succes during that period. That isn't so. Triple H may have helped carry the company but Rock was just as important. If your the top face in the company your carrying the company. Take away Rock from that period and I'm pretty sure ratings would have suffered BIG TIME. Both were important to the WWF in 2000 and both helped carry the WWF.

[Guest gusmahler]

Of course Rock is bigger than Austin.  He is about 6'5" and Austin is only like 6'2".  :-)

 

The reasoning is simple.  Rock is main eventing WM because he is a bigger mainstream name than Austin.  Period.  Whether or not he is bigger to wrestling fans is irrelevant; McMahon is trying to sell WM to casual viewers and Rock/Hogan is the way to do it.  

 

It's been said before, but Rock is a much better presence in the mainstream press.  (Even Angle says so in his book, McMahon is glad to have people with mainstream credibility like Rock and Angle.)  Austin definitely carried the promotion and brought it to new heights.

 

Those who say Rock has never carried the promotion are right.  He never had to.  The reason HHH was the star of 2000 was that they had to build him up.  If they kept focusing on HHH, they could make him a star.  They didn't need to focus on Rock because Rock already was a star.  

 

People will buy tickets to see Rock just to see the Rock; he doesn't need to be champ or even the main focus to sell tickets.  OTOH, people wouldn't buy tickets to see HHH unless he was champ or involved in a major angle.

 

I guess we will see who truly is bigger when the split takes place with Austin rumored to head Raw and Rock heading Smackdown.

 

As an aside, I have no idea why HHH is a face.  He will never overtake Rock or Austin in popularity, so he will always be #3 face.  As a heel, he could be the top heel.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

As I stated in my review of the Rocks career (found at the end of the last page) They did co-carry.

 

So the Rock was never the #1 guy...just tied.

 

And you said it yourself:

 

". Take away Rock from that period and I'm pretty sure ratings would have suffered BIG TIME"

 

We don't know what the Rock can do...because he's never been the #1 guy.

 

(see review of Rock's career at end of last page)

[Guest the_hurricane]

bps21 I know you suffer from fetal alcoholic syndrome and you cannot stay away from the retardedness you suffered but the truth is, you are just a HHH mark and are mad that he isn't bigger than the rock but that is ok, I feel your pain..

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Good god could you be more wrong?

 

No.

 

As anyone will tell you...ALL I DO IS BITCH ABOUT HHH.

 

Most of the time I get yelled at for pointing out HOW MUCH I HATE HHH.

 

I can however, unlike you; recognize the truth of the matter.

[Guest Tony149]

The WWF is pushing The Rock as a Icon for marketing reasons. Who gives a shit if he carried the company or not. The casual fans at home don't. It's just a MARKETING TOOL to PROMOTE the match.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I know that.  You know that.

 

The problem occurs when people come on here saying that it's true.

 

No matter how much proof you give them to the contrary...it's true because the WWF said so.

[Guest Tony149]

I think people have their own opinions. At least I hope they do. I don't think they buy everything the WWF says. If that was the case, then some must think The Rock really got ran over by the truck on Raw.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Most of the people on that side are using their own opinion...but that Hurricane guy backs it up with markish statements.

[Guest mastermind]

This debate is still hot I see. BPS, you have a point about Rock NOT GIVEN the ball(which I think they can only truly do when they put him over Austin), but he did carry the wwf in 2000. Let me explain. WrestleMania is the big dog right?  It's the show which is suppose to draw the most for the year right? Well, Austin and Rock broke ppv records in 1999. Rock(who in a USA Today poll had the lead in who people THOUGHT would win the title match) along with his supporting cast broke records in 2000. You see if people are paying to see ROCK WIN, Rock is carrying the wwf. The wwf was just using that heat to put on Triple H(btw, I'm a big HHH mark). Saying Triple H was the star because the wwf booked him that way is misleading.

 

Now take into account that the aftermath of WrestleMania 2000 the ratings were at its highest EVER because the rematch was announced. People wanted Rock to get his revenge. It shot up to crazy overall numbers of 7.0. Take into account what a past poster said which was true. Rock was becoming more popular than Austin in late 1999. In fact Rock and Austin were sharing cheers at WM 15 regardless of the fact that Rock was painfully booked as the supposed hated heel aligned with Mcmahon. That is saying something as even Austin was booed heavily with Mcmahon after say a month. It was working with enough effort. Anyways, polls even had Rock beating Austin in popularity.

 

Some can say Triple H beating Foley twice in the early part of 2000 caused ratings to be high. However, it can also be extremely possible that the Rock winning the Rumble and then having to fight for his Mania spot were also a reason why fans were tuning in. This is how Austin was booked the previous 2 years. However, Rock lost his spot and the match was turned into a four way basically because the wwf didn't have faith in the traditional one on one match-up of Triple H/Rock. Triple H carried the wwf then right? How so? They would have just gone with this match.

 

Okay, we head to Backlash 2000. Rock wins the title with help from Austin and the ratings are strong. They stay strong as fans were happy Rock was champion. Now for some unknown reason the title went back to Triple H the next month in May. Around June/July the ratings start to slip I wonder why? Rock regains the title, but the heat he had in April/May has died down. Triple H/Angle/Stephanie take control as the top storyline and soon after SummerSlam the wwf goes into ratings downfall. Now tell me who was carrying the wwf for the most part? If the wwf had protected their super face Rock as they did Austin the previous 2 years I think the situation would have been a lot different.

 

Imagine Rock given the face push as champion from Backlash and then have Austin returning and turning heel blaming Rock for the hit and run. It would go back to late 1999 and the fans starting to jump on Rock's boat. Confusing the storyline star with the actual company star are two different things. The Rock has never been given the push of Austin or Triple H. Actually, I thought Hogan blew Rock's video in terms of wrestling/superstardom success. The wwf has obviously dropped the ball on Rock and it has showed in that video. Sure he has won the title 6 times, but none of his reigns were given any prestige as Triple H's or Austin's. Maybe the wwf will start to push him like the top guy starting with Mania.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

"So here's my take:

 

Rock is a wildly popular wrestler.  That's it.

 

Will he end up being an Icon?  Probably.

 

Is he bigger than Austin right now?  No. "

 

Exactly, and that is why Hogan should win this match.  If Rock beats Hogan, the interest is much less for his eventually match with Rock.

 

PS:  I would still rather see Flair/Austin.  Speaking from a Canadian point of view, Hogan was never that big up here.  Ric Flair & Bret Hart are thought more highly of than Hogan.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I see your point Mastermind and I agree.

 

But it doesn't change the fact that the Rock isn't as big as Austin.

 

I've never questioned his popularity but In my mind...this comes down to who has done more for the business.

 

I just don't see how the Rock has done more than Austin.

 

Keeping a company afloat when you are half of the #1 guy (and the competition is DOA)...and bringing the company back to #1 in the face of competition that features (Hogan, Sting, Flair, Savage, Luger, NWO, Hart, DDP...) is flat out more impressive.

 

Like I said...given time, perhaps Rock will surpass Austin...just hasn't happened yet.

[Guest Austin3164life]

"I wonder where ya get that crap that austin has sold more merchandise and t-shirts than rock, it is funny as hell cause that is way far from the truth.....Believe it or not first off, there hasn't even been a new rock shirt for awhile and if austin is selling more now, that is because the rock has been out forawhile and with HHH being a disappointing face, austin is the only one left to root for......"

 

If you want evidence.....on wwfshopzone.com for the past four months, Austin's WHAT? shirt has been the #1 WWF Merchandise.  Considering it's the biggest WWF merchandise, and that the Austin 3:16 original t-shirt outsold anything Hogaan, HBK, or The Rock ever did.  Austin has sold the most merchandise out of any wrestler in North America.  

 

Oh, and about bigger pops, take a look at when Austin beat up Hall on SD! a week and a half ago.  When he brought out the spray can, the entire arena POPPED and was screaming "3:16!!".  If that's not enough, take any of Austin's major wins in 1998 and a couple in 1999.  One I recommend is Austin regaining the title from Kane right after KOTR on Raw.  Every damn person in the arena shook.  It shows.  I don't ever remember ROck getting those kind of pops.  The only wrestler who's pops rival Austin's are Hogan's.  Rock is wrestling Hogan because Austin refused to work with him (WCW heat circa 1994).  I'm sure at Summerslam the huge payoff match will be Austin vs. Hogan.  If you want more evidence that Austin is a bigger icon, all last year when Austin was the #1 HEEL mind you, JR, Heyman, and Michael Cole all named him, on television, as "The Greatest WWF Champion of all time".  If you still need more evidence as to who is a bigger wrestling icon, throughout 98-99, Austin was referred to as the most popular wrestler ever by EVERYONE.  The Rock is the definite Entertainment Commodity from his role in The Scorpion King and Mummy Returns, so he is the biggest media crossover.  The Biggest Icon in wrestling ever is probably Austin or Hogan...end of story.....

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

"The only wrestler who's pops rival Austin's are Hogan's. "

 

Or Bret Hart if it is in Canada.

[Guest mastermind]

BPS, your point makes a lot of sense. Austin was the main star who helped the wwf surpass the drawing power juggernaut of wcw(although I still blame the management). However, as things have shown the wwf was a much better written show in 1998 than it is now. I still feel the t-shirt sales are misleading. Austin and the NWO shirts were simple designed with the rebel black and white based off the black and silver of the LA Raiders. This isn't a coincident. His shirts with a rattlesnake and whatnot were crafty. I don't think people buy wrestling t-shirts because they want to support their favourite wrestlers. That's why I think his shirts outsold shirts by Hogan(although people tend to think nWo shirts have nothing to do with Hogan) and even Rock.

 

Yeah, there is no question to me that Austin did MORE for WRESTLING than Rock SO FAR. Although, if we go on that Hogan has them both beat hands down as he was apart of two booms and for two different companies making them #1. The topic is about who the populace see as bigger though. However, as some have stated Rock has had a SHORT career. Not even Hogan did this much at this stage of his career. You got to take that into account. Austin has been here since the early 90's and took him like 8 years to reach the height he was in 1998. Politics and bullshit aside it still took him 8 years to really reach Hoganesque levels. Rock is already at Hoganesque levels. About Austin's chants in 1998 does anyone remember ROCKY ROCKY chants during his ladder match against Triple H? He was at his top form as a heel then too. I think Rock also had the fans eating out of his hands before Austin with catchphrases. I will never forget the RAW where Rock was walking down the aisle and timing his promo with the fans chanting along. That was the first time I ever saw that in wrestling and I have seen a lot of wrestling.

[Guest the_hurricane]

once again I agree for the most part ecept for AustinHHH4life.....Good God someone needs to give you a spanking lesson to actually believe that austin had the biggest pops ever.....Simply because of the fact that not one pop can compare to the pop rock got at his return in July when he said he would join the wwf........Austin cannot compare...Do you remember the Jay Leno Show last year austin appeared on before wm???  I believe he himself said "ROck is bigger than I'll ever be."  Yes, he said that and I have that damn show recorded still........Right now again, rock has not had a new shirt in awhile....So austin right now is selling more shirts because of that...and as the other person said.....More fans are way into just saying what than austin himself as when the rock cuts a promo, not one what chant has ever came across, I wonder why???

 

 

Plain and simple, ausitn may have accomplished more but the rock is way more popular fan wise, media wise, entertainment wise, and merchandise wise and only a fool would believe differ when the proof is right there....

 

And a week and a half ago, when austin did that to hall, I believe rock was not there but when his name was mentioned the fans erupted and if you read the biggest pops list rock only being mentioned was at #2 over HHH....Maybe not austin but again, rock was not even there to compete...

 

 

So plain and simple rock is the more popular guy and the future...Austin plain sucks and that's the bottom line cause the great one said so...

 

and hopefully it ain't HHH that gives you the spanking lesson and I heard some things about him pretty much like your stupid ass if you get what I am saying....

[Guest the_hurricane]

by the way mastermind, you could not have said that any better than me....and you are right, the rock has never had a pretigeous title hold as everytime he won, he quickly lost the title.......But again rock has done so much in his 6 year career where as austin who has had a 15 year career only had the best 2 years in 98 and 99......    Rock is still the hottest topic and even rolling stone magazine has said that rock hass surpassed hogan....He may not technically but after scorpion King comes out and kicks ass like the mummy 2 did, then there will have only be one thing left for the rock to do and that is to beat austin which I know they are going to set that up in the coming year either at summerslam, survivor series or next year's wm......

[Guest the BURNHAM]

HMMMMMMMMMMMMM...Where to start?

 

Firstly, I heard somewhere, granted I don't remember where, that Austin did have a beef of sorts to working a program with Hogan since his entrance and subsequent push to the top in WCW was one reason why Stunning Steve was de pushed and jobbed to Hacksaw.  And while one may argue that if Austin "cared for the business" he would work with whoever will make the most money for the company...I think after breaking your neck for a company you should be able to veto some ideas.

 

Secondly, Austin, today, may not be getting the face pops that Rock does on entrance.  But the pops he gets for his actions are much greater than anything Rock does.  His beatdown of Hall was pretty damn loud and his matches draw more than Rock's typically in Ratings.

 

Thirdly, During the Austin McMahon era/war, no pop will ever reach those levels.  He was the classic take no bullshit antihero.  Rock is usually cutesy, Austin in brutally blunt.  Rock makes jokes, Austin made threats.  Theres a difference in the type of pops they got.  If you had a hard days work where your boss or teacher or parent or supervisor bitched you out, you are much more likely to cheer for Austin.  Bottom line.  

 

Fourth, I agree that Rock has never carried the company.  Whoever said that when HHH was retiring Foley that maybe Rock was the reasons for the ratings was in my view wrong.  You want anti-drawing power?  Try a Big Show fued.  HHH began the swing in 2000, let the Rock jump on, and they had a wild ride together, without HHH there would have been no ratings but along those same lines, without Rock thre would have been no ratings either.

 

And Since I mentioned Foley, let me say this.  The this is your life segment I think was not drawing big because of Rock.  I am the biggest Foely mark out there too and I don't think it was because of Foley eitehr.   It was because people wanted to see something big, which wasn't delivered really.  I mean I remember talking to friends who watched it since, they wreen't wrestling fans they just tuned in and it caught there eye...they thought a big blow off was coming, something historical.  But it didnt' happen.  And the next Rock - FOley skit didnt' do as well because of it.  

 

The reason Rock-Hogan is going on and not Austin-Hogan is I tihnk mainly because of ages.  Rock is young, I thikn 28, Austin I believe is aroudn 35.  Austin has been wrestling for a good many of years.  So has Hogan.  This match could divide the old-young genre pertty good and as a result draw bigger numbers than Austin-Hogan although that match would be more titanic to wrestling fans.

[Guest the BURNHAM]

once again I agree for the most part ecept for AustinHHH4life.....Good God someone needs to give you a spanking lesson to actually believe that austin had the biggest pops ever.....Simply because of the fact that not one pop can compare to the pop rock got at his return in July when he said he would join the wwf........Austin cannot compare...Do you remember the Jay Leno Show last year austin appeared on before wm???  I believe he himself said "ROck is bigger than I'll ever be."  Yes, he said that and I have that damn show recorded still........Right now again, rock has not had a new shirt in awhile....So austin right now is selling more shirts because of that...and as the other person said.....More fans are way into just saying what than austin himself as when the rock cuts a promo, not one what chant has ever came across, I wonder why???

 

Okay, lets roleplay.  You are on a multi million dollar basketball team...say the Los Angeles Lakers.  Your name is Shaquille.  You were quite merchandisable a few years ago, in fact you are the best performer day in and day out in your business.  But alas, although you still go out and bust your ass, there's a new kid in town who is much more face value and appeal to commercialization.  He's just out of high school and has raw talent.  His name is Kobe. You then go onto the Tonight Show with Jay Leno, 5 years later.  And damn it you can still perform.  Still lead the league in scoring.  Still a damn fine basketball player in every sense of the word.  Still in commercials too and making personal appearances.  But young Kobe is now the new thing in the league and his popularity is reaching and surpassing yours.  What do you do when Jay asks, what do you think of your teammate Kobe?  

 

a) Tell Jay that he's alright but should be playing second fiddle to you.

b) Tell Jay that he's all hype still and should have paid his dues in college.

c) Say that Kobe is a damn fine player and that "Kobe is bigger than I'll ever be."  

 

I think C is the best answer for the team isn't it?  

 

And you can't judge anything on return pops because if all of a sudden Rhyno returned you'd hear a substantila pop and then it would die down to crickets again...nothing against Rhyno though, he was the first one to come to mind.

[Guest the_hurricane]

that is total and utter b.s. the gayham......Not one of that is true....First and foremost the austina nd mcmahon era I believe a lot of the arenas they were in were smaller than the ones now simply because the wwf was just getting their fans back........and as a matter of fact, I believe 2000 and 2001 were vince's biggest money makers even despite the xfl failure simply because the arenas are so much bigger now than they were in 98....That is a fact....and that is just the beginning.

 

Look at every rock match, all the rock has to do is do the just bring it sign and throw a punch and the fans erupt, and you say fans cheer for austin's actions more......There is not one pop that austin will ever get that will be louder than the rock doing the people's elbow,,,,Nothing will ever beat the pops he gets from when he sets it up to when he delivers the drop....Nothing will ever compare to that........By the way, snorting as much cocaine as you do and jerking off to linda mcmahon's portrait as much as you do, does not mean you are right about what you just said because yous stated the most bs ever heard in such a forum...

 

My regards

THE_HURRICANE

[Guest Bruin]

Wow bps, I feel sorry for you. Every single argument you had was just brushed off by these kid.. Anyway..

 

Right now again, rock has not had a new shirt in awhile....So austin right now is selling more shirts because of that.

 

I beleive Rock had a new shirt since after 9/11.. Austin has had the "What?" shirt out a few weeks after he started using it in the Alliance over the summer. So saying Rock hasn't had a new shirt out is just plain being stupid.

 

God, I feel as if my IQ has lowered signifigantly after reading through bps' great arguments being retorted in such an inane way..

 

BTW - Great job of calling bps a HHH mark.. Thanks for showing us that you didn't bother to actually read the forum before you signed up, and that we can now expect very little from your posts..