Quick question for Puro fans...

[Guest PlatypusFool]

Good question, what's the magazine-ness about?

 

Oh, and while we are discussing moves, I would just like to register my joy that Momoe Nakanishi's 'momo-racci' move is unlockable in Smackdown 4. It is called the 'peachrana pin', which makes sense as I understand that 'momo' translates to 'peach'.

 

Slightly more on topic, there are also twelve different shining wizards in the game, called 'flash magic 1 - 12'. This includes the shining yakuza kick, mutoh's really lazy sloppy one and plenty of superfluous versions for no real reason.

[Guest Kibagami]

Flash Magic 12 is the ugliest thing I've ever seen. Tell me that's not how it really looks. Lie, if you must.

 

S.

[Guest Pegasus Kid]

The leg is more straightened out, but the knee is still what hits, and regardless of whether he "springboards" off his opponent's knee, he gets the same elevation, same velocity, and same affect, that being, a knee to the face.

 

Geeze, I'm having so much fun with this. Next, we can argue about Raven's finish! He usually drops the guy more on his face than the top of his head, and he falls more to his hips, as opposed to his back, so it's NOTHING like a DDT, ya know. Consider yourselves enlightened.

*sigh* Are we all watching the same Hemls matches? The man does NOT use his knee to hit his opponent. He uses a kick and/or connects with the shin to the temple. It is NOT The Shining Wizard. If it were then it would have the knee strike to the head. If this were all bunched into the same category as you seem to be wanting then we wouldn't need the distinction for The Shining Black either. The name of the move is particular to the motions to that move. You bring up the "Raven Effect" and actually make my point for me. Raven's DDT is different than other folks because of the way he executes it. You wouldn't just lump all of the trademark/finishing moves of the wrestlers into one bunch just because they're all DDT's, powerbombs, etc... The move has a distinction to it and straying from that distiction means that the move is different and thus isn't deserving of the particular name given in that circumstance.

 

And BTW, "consider yourselves enlightened" is supposed to be what? Funny? Witty? Make your point, but don't try to be a smart ass about it.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

Ladies and gentlemen, the ONE AND ONLY PEGASUS KID...JUSTIN BAISDEN!!!

 

Oh. And it's a stupid Keith joke with the Shining Wizard Magazine. You know, as in Wizard Magazine? Comic Book Magazine?

[Guest Kibagami]

If Baisden needs a blowjob, I'm sure he'll call you, Tim.

 

S.

[Guest Ace309]

Slightly off-topic...

 

iirc, a Michinoku Driver as such is an inverted facelock into a brainbuster.

 

A Mich-Driver II is a scoop slam into a square driver.

 

A Mich-Driver IIb is an inverted facelock into a square driver.

 

Of course, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Guest Kibagami]

They need to put these moves in video games, I tell you. I don't need 12 Shining Wizards, I need more head drops.

 

S.

[Guest Jubuki]

Too bad your namesake isn't indicative of your behavior.

[Guest Ace309]

But every head drop should be equipped with a randomly-generated delayed-sell-with-lariat sequence.

[Guest Kibagami]

Can we have Tazz tell us that Angle...is a great...person after the delayed sell?

 

S.

[Guest Special K]

Jaysis, someone doesn't like others posting in the puro forum.

[Guest Jubuki]

When their grand contributions involve blowjob jests, no, can't say as I do.

[Guest Dace59]

I believe the Michinoku Driver I is simply a Brainbuster

 

It is.

 

Michinoku Driver IIb

Inverted Facelock Lift (ala Inverted Suplex) into MD2

 

Helms has hit the guy in the BACK of the head, with his foot.

Making it an Enzuguiri.

 

For the other Shining moves, I was giving examples.

How can my knowledge me at your expense?

This is dissucsion and learning right?

If it is, we should all come away better off.

 

we should all start refering to knees as Wizards, then

 

According to Mutoh, yes. (He said in a intereview once that a knee to the face is called a Wizard) That I don't get from him, and I do agree that we shouldn't go that far.

 

It's all general consent of people using the moves, and using similar naming, that have lead to a slightly majority term. Technically it's just another gimmick name.

It's ease more than anything.

And there are other moves called Shining which are nothing to do with the SW.

 

I'd say some moves arent the same without the full set up, and all parts. EG Burning Hammer and Shining Wizard.

 

If Helms at least makes an effort to come off the guy's knee, and sticks a knee in the area on the front of the head, where the nose is roughly in the middle, ears are the far side, that we call a face, it's a Shining Wizard.

But like people are saying, he doesnt.

 

A DDT is just falling back with the opp in a front face lock. It's ome of the moves that is not dependant on the landing.

 

See all of the other peoples point too.

The move is mainly flash, so the flash counts.

 

 

Mich-Driver II is just a (Sheer Drop) Sitout Scoop slam Ace (Depends on attacker and opp what angle it's at)

[Guest RickyChosyu]

*sigh* Are we all watching the same Hemls matches?

 

I think it's safe to assume yes.

 

The man does NOT use his knee to hit his opponent.  He uses a kick and/or connects with the shin to the temple.  It is NOT The Shining Wizard.

 

Oh, so I guess that's why he leaves so little room between himself and his opponent? Why would he "jump" just to kick a kneeling opponent in the head? I think Helms has worked with Tajiri enough times to know that you can kick a kneeling opponent in the head while standing just as easilly.

 

If it were then it would have the knee strike to the head.

 

I'm glad that we've clarified that.

 

If this were all bunched into the same category as you seem to be wanting then we wouldn't need the distinction for The Shining Black either.

 

And Heaven forbid we don't have another distinction.

 

The name of the move is particular to the motions to that move.

 

Oh please. So I suppose this means that EVERY move requires a specific insight into what seperates itself from every other version? There's no possible way that two moves with a distinctly-similar set-up and the same out come can be ANYTHING alike, right? Thank God we have Pegasus Kid here, to inform us that, no, there is no such thing as a mere "Power Bomb" for there are so many versions that one cannot ever specify what a regular power bomb is!

 

You bring up the "Raven Effect" and actually make my point for me.  Raven's DDT is different than other folks because of the way he executes it.

 

Oh, so I guess it's NOTHING LIKE a regular DDT then? At this point, I'm trying to decide whether or not you actually enjoy debating this kind of thing or you just like annoying people. I'm guessing it's a combination of both, considering that anyone with a considerable mass in their head could have seen my sarcasm in that statement that you lifted.

 

You wouldn't just lump all of the trademark/finishing moves of the wrestlers into one bunch just because they're all DDT's, powerbombs, etc... The move has a distinction to it and straying from that distiction means that the move is different and thus isn't deserving of the particular name given in that circumstance.

 

Major distinctions I can understand, but Helms bending his knee properly or Raven failing to drop fully to his back are not major at all. They're extremely minor distinctions that, if comtemplated when discusing moves, would exist in every single wrestler's execution of a particular menuver. Furthermore, since when is it logical to decide what constraints to place on a move name and what a move requires to "deserve" it's name? It's all based on assumptions made by you, so if you want to press this kind of fruitless nonsense on someone, pick someone else, because I'm not interested.

 

And BTW, "consider yourselves enlightened" is supposed to be what?  Funny?  Witty?  Make your point, but don't try to be a smart ass about it.

 

Considering you missed the entire point of that paragraph to begin with, I would say the statement stands for itself. Maybe if you re-read the post, you'll be enlightened to what I was trying to say.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Helms has hit the guy in the BACK of the head, with his foot.

Making it an Enzuguiri.

 

He comes at them directly from the front, so unless he's extremely flexible, the BACK of the head isn't within his reach, no matter which part of his leg he's using. Plus, it's obvious, considering the amount of space left between him and the opponent, that he doesn't have any room to do standard kick, and even if he wanted to, there would be no reason to jump if that's all he wanted to accomplish.

 

For the other Shining moves, I was giving examples.

How can my knowledge me at your expense?

This is dissucsion and learning right?

If it is, we should all come away better off.

 

Yes, but when you're trying to teach me things I have no need or desire to learn, for no apparent reason, I tend to get suspicious. The only thing I'm learning here is the power of people to argue about stupid things for long periods of time, needlessly. I'm not better off, I'm arguing about diction in regards to wrestling moves. If you can come up with a way that this is beneficial to a) my personal happiness or b) my ability to appreciate wrestling, then I'd be more than glad to hear it, but so far I'm not having the time of my life "learning."

 

According to Mutoh, yes. (He said in a intereview once that a knee to the face is called a Wizard) That I don't get from him, and I do agree that we shouldn't go that far.

 

So why are you so insistant on calling anything involving the "springboard" of the knee as "shining"? You're making a distinction without a difference, I think.

 

It's all general consent of people using the moves, and using similar naming, that have lead to a slightly majority term. Technically it's just another gimmick name.

 

Thank God, now we can talk about something else. Oh, there's more.

 

And there are other moves called Shining which are nothing to do with the SW.

 

Just like you'd be hard pressed to find the similarites between a Northern Lights Suplex or a Northern Lights Bomb. Or how you would be hard pressed to find why the NLB has "bomb" in it at all, considering it's nothing like a power bomb. Ok, now we can SURELY drop this entire debate, right? Oh, there's more.

 

I'd say some moves arent the same without the full set up, and all parts. EG Burning Hammer and Shining Wizard.

 

The only thing that seperates those moves specifically from other's similar to them is the wrestlers who do them. Like you said, they're gimick names. If some guy in the states starting doing the Burning Hammer, but without using the turn buckle set-up, it would basically be the same thing, wouldn't you say?

 

The move is mainly flash, so the flash counts.

 

It's pretty sloppy, if you ask me. I'd say Helms' looks cleaner in most cases I've seen.

[Guest Jubuki]

Howsabout everyone here starts practicing the Shining Can of Shut the Fuck Up Already?

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Oh, come now, Chris, you must be enjoying this even more than I am.

[Guest Jubuki]

Feh.

[Guest Dace59]

Hey, the dude asked a question about moves.

There for the answer is totally centred around moves and move info.

 

You answerd it, and brought yourself into it.

 

This is needless, but it's a message board, which is also needless, but I like to use it,

 

To make, all this makes every bit my enjoyment of wrestling.

 

I woudlnt try to say a Northen Lights Suplex and Bomb are anything like each other.

 

We could go the cows come home, I'd care a bit.

You've said you don't. And that it doesn't matter to you personally.

 

I'm not teaching you.

If you don't want to learnt why don't we drop it then?

 

I shouldn't be arguing, I don't have the right too.

Just not for the reason you'll think.

[Guest Pegasus Kid]

Oh, so I guess that's why he leaves so little room between himself and his opponent? Why would he "jump" just to kick a kneeling opponent in the head? I think Helms has worked with Tajiri enough times to know that you can kick a kneeling opponent in the head while standing just as easilly.

 

Tajiri doesn't call his Roundhouse kick a Shining Wizard now does he? Helms B-Lines to the opponent and KICKS him in the side of the head. The amount of distance between attacker and victim isn't the issue here. Roundhouse Kick and Knee Strike are two different things.

 

And Heaven forbid we don't have another distinction.

 

This was in reference to The Shining Black and YES heaven forbid we don't have another distinction. If Chono wanted to name the move "Shining Wizard" then he would have done so. But the move is DIFFERENT so the name is DIFFERENT. Helms move is DIFFERENT so the name is NOT Shining Wizard.

 

Oh please. So I suppose this means that EVERY move requires a specific insight into what seperates itself from every other version?

 

YES! THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT! Vertical Suplex, delayed vertical suplex, snap suplex. Same motion, different style, DIFFERENT NAME! You don't hear announcers going "There's Dynamite Kid's patented vertical suplex" do you? The move is different despite having the same motions as others within it's class so the name is different.

 

There's no possible way that two moves with a distinctly-similar set-up and the same out come can be ANYTHING alike, right?

 

Now you're just changing the subject. The issue isn't whether moves can or can't be similar. The poster asked whether Helms version of the move was The Shining Wizard, which it isn't. Whether Helms move look comparable to The Shining Wizard is irrelevant, it isn't The Shining Wizard.

 

Thank God we have Pegasus Kid here, to inform us that, no, there is no such thing as a mere "Power Bomb" for there are so many versions that one cannot ever specify what a regular power bomb is!

 

FUCKING EH YOU THANK GOD! Don't try to belittle and/or patronize me. Shit like that tends to come when you're backed into a corner and need to turn the tables on someone. BZZZZ! WRONG! You want to debate then do it but don't make your pathetic little cry for validation while taking a shot at me.

 

Major distinctions I can understand, but Helms bending his knee properly or Raven failing to drop fully to his back are not major at all. They're extremely minor distinctions that, if comtemplated when discusing moves, would exist in every single wrestler's execution of a particular menuver.

 

The "distinction" (as you so put it yourself), whether major or minor is EXACTLY what's at issue here. Raven's DDT is distinctive because of the way he drops. That's all there is to it. "The Raven Effect" is what it is because he drops the way he does. "Edgecution"/Implant DDT is what it is because of the lift prior to the drop. DDT isn't at issue. Distinctions within the possible styles of DDT (or in this case Shining Wizard) is.

 

Furthermore, since when is it logical to decide what constraints to place on a move name and what a move requires to "deserve" it's name? It's all based on assumptions made by you, so if you want to press this kind of fruitless nonsense on someone, pick someone else, because I'm not interested.

 

Move names aren't assumptions based on us as viewers, they are names given by the wrestlers. If every viewer decided the name of a move or a style within that move then there'd never be a concensus as to what the name really is. It's given a name, and appropriated as such by the viewer/commentary. Division from the original move and/or name thus creates the necessity for a new classification.

 

BTW, when you're done reading, please feel free to email Rev Rey and tell him his site (according to you at least) is redundant. I'm sure he'll appreciate your insight into the hours upon hours of hard work he put into his site so people like this original poster could have their questions answer rather than having someone tell him that all moves of similar type are the same.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

This is needless, but it's a message board, which is also needless, but I like to use it,

 

I don't think that's true at all. I enjoy discusing things related to wrestling, otherwise, I wouldn't be here, but squabling over minor differences in moves and the literal meaning of each name doesn't fall under that, at least not to me. If you can get enjoyment out of it, great, but I can live without being pounced on for calling two near-identical versions of a move the same thing. If you want to go into further detail than me and explain the differences that you see in the moves, go ahead, but don't attack my opinion because it's not in-depth enough for you. I gave as complex an answer as I felt was needed, and, believe it or not, I think it pretty much answered the question at hand.

 

Helms B-Lines to the opponent and KICKS him in the side of the head.

 

Listen, we've both belabored this point enough. The distance between the shin and the knee is such that it's difficult to tell which is actually hitting, so I think it's rather pointless to argue it further, wouldn't you agree?

 

If Chono wanted to name the move "Shining Wizard" then he would have done so. But the move is DIFFERENT so the name is DIFFERENT. Helms move is DIFFERENT so the name is NOT Shining Wizard.

 

Chono could have called it the "Shining Black" if it was the exact same thing as Mutoh's or if it was a half crab. It's his decision. Just because he adds a part of his gimick onto the name of a move doesn't require that it be different. In this case, it was different, but that wasn't required for Chono to call it by a different name.

 

You've got the origins backwards, and you're making assumptions based on what the wreslters tell you, which, believe or not, is not always true. The Nagata Lock II doesn't have some inherent difference just because it's not called by the name that it coppies. Nagata calls it that to make it his own, even though there is little, if any difference between his and Benoit's version. There are a numerous examples of this, because just like most things in wrestling, move names are usually due to gimicks, not catagorization by the wrestlers.

 

Vertical Suplex, delayed vertical suplex, snap suplex. Same motion, different style, DIFFERENT NAME!

 

Yeah, and then comes the part where some joker decides to rain down in a torrent claiming that a vertical suplex and delayed vertical suplex are NOTHING ALIKE, because a few extra seconds of hang time ends any similarity the moves could have had. To say your attitude is needlessly extreme would be an understatement.

 

Now you're just changing the subject. The issue isn't whether moves can or can't be similar. The poster asked whether Helms version of the move was The Shining Wizard, which it isn't. Whether Helms move look comparable to The Shining Wizard is irrelevant, it isn't The Shining Wizard.

 

Actually, I think I was pointing out a flaw in your logic, derived from your "they're NOTHING ALIKE" line, which, I think, makes the point relevant enough. Now, all you have to do is explain WHY they're nothing alike, which is what I wanted you to do before. I would suggest re-reading my post while keeping your first post in this thread in mind.

 

Shit like that tends to come when you're backed into a corner and need to turn the tables on someone. BZZZZ! WRONG! You want to debate then do it but don't make your pathetic little cry for validation while taking a shot at me.

 

No, I'm pretty sure that you're shooting yourself in the foot enough for the both of us. Maybe if you weren't so bussy taking offense to the sarcasm in that paragraph you would see the point I was trying to make. However, I'll restate it in a more benign manner, so as not to offend you:

 

who are you to say what a "regular" shining wizard is? There are times when Mutoh gets put in a standing single leg and hits it from there, so what would you call THAT version? Is there even a name for it? It's obviously different, but how do you know what the "official term as dictated by the wrestlers" is? Like I said, it's all assumptions, and when you push those assumptions as fact (and use them to attack other people's opinions) you tend to come off as pompous, quite frankly, and that's what I was trying to convey by posting in such a manner.

 

I have no problem debating. What I have a problem with is people who have so little sense of humor about themselves that their behavior becomes a parody of itself. Your arrogant "I dictate the rules of wrestling move discusion!" attitude is far more imposing (and irritating) than any sarcasm I could dish out, believe you me.

 

Move names aren't assumptions based on us as viewers, they are names given by the wrestlers.

 

Here's where your logic takes another vacation: where did a wrestler ever say that a regular DDT HAS to involve falling to your back? How do you know Raven didn't re-name his finish because in the WWE EVERYONE has a special name for their finish? It's all based on assumptions, and you're taking those assumptions and trying to win an arguement with them. Suffice to say, that won't work here, and it shouldn't work anywhere else, either.

 

BTW, when you're done reading, please feel free to email Rev Rey and tell him his site (according to you at least) is redundant. I'm sure he'll appreciate your insight into the hours upon hours of hard work he put into his site so people like this original poster could have their questions answer rather than having someone tell him that all moves of similar type are the same.

 

More likely, I should personally thank him for making utterly ridiculous arguements with pretentious dolts possible. When people ask about whether Helms really is using Mutoh's version, something tells me they're not looking for every specific detail that seperates them, but, more likely, whether Helms is emulating Mutoh. In this case, the obvious answer is yes, and the pointless squabling over what the definition of "shining" is not needed.

 

I would suggest that you take Rev Rey's site, just like the DVDR 500, with a grain of salt instead of treating the assumptions of yourself and others as universal truth. I don't appreciate your attempts to run down my opinion by refferencing a list like that as if it's infallibe, which I doubt was even Rey's intention to begin with.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

No need to argue with Justin. His reviews prove his points well enough.

 

Tim, who just saw a 2.99999999999999999999 count.

[Guest Jubuki]

OK, now I'm REALLY having too much of an effect on this lot.

 

Wait, no I'm not.

[Guest Pegasus Kid]

No need to argue with Justin. His reviews prove his points well enough.

 

Tim, who just saw a 2.99999999999999999999 count.

This is what is supposed to be called "wit" everyone. Write it down and show your friends.

 

Anyway; this basically boils down to I want all differences in moves to have a distinct name and you (Chosyu) don't. Odds are we'd end up in circles and C&P jobs for days so I'm going to move on.

 

To answer the original poster, IN MY OPINION I don't think Helms move is The Shining Wizard (sift through the many posts and C&P jobs to find out why).

[Guest RickyChosyu]

OK, now I'm REALLY having too much of an effect on this lot. Wait, no I'm not.

 

No, I can only hope to have a thread dedicated in my honor for acting salty around here. I'd say you're pretty safe.

 

 

 

Anyway; this basically boils down to I want all differences in moves to have a distinct name and you (Chosyu) don't. Odds are we'd end up in circles and C&P jobs for days so I'm going to move on.

 

I'd say it revolves more around a guy who finds it neccesary to rant, rave, and get all riled up over such material. Feel free to disect this kind of thing all that you want, I'm not trying to press my opinion on you, but I'd appreciate if you would refrain from pressing those opinions on others with short-sided tenacity. Keeping an open mind is a good thing.

[Guest Dace59]

I'd near the front of the line along with many people to decry the BBoWM, but it's a better effort than anyone has been botherd to make, and it's not as if it's anyway near to being all wrong.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I never said any of it was wrong, just that it, along with pretty much everything else Justin was saying, was based off of assumed meanings of wrestling moves.

[Guest Dace59]

A lot of the technical stuff comes form the dictionary and amature wrestling, and martial arts that are used.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

You know, if Akira Taue was doing the move in question, this argument could get really ugly.

 

What's the difference? He runs up, he kicks the guy in the dome. The guy pretends it hurts. 'Nuff said.

 

When Mutoh does it, it's a finisher. Helms uses it as a transitional move. THAT's the big difference, not whether it's the knee or the shin making contact.

[Guest AnnieEclectic]

There seems to be a simple misunderstanding that there is quite a bit of difference between the two moves. Thus:

 

Helms:

 

Run, jump, kick to the back/side of head. No other contact made.

 

 

Mutoh

 

Run, step on knee-vault into air, bent knee to side/front of face.

 

 

 

it's really HIGHLY different in the minute details. Helms does not use a Shining Wizard. He's close to the shining leg lariat, just missing the knee vault.

 

 

Simple when you break down the numbers.

 

My reccomendation, stop jumping down Dace's throat when he's right over the God Almighty Chosyu.

 

-Annie