Question to all you Puroresu fans...

[Guest Downhome]

Simply put, what matches do YOU feel that I should include on it, say a tape of somewhere between 4-8 hours long. If you don't know what I'm talking about, check out my thread in General Wrestling, and read up on it. Also, if any of you wish to help me out, let me know, you know where to reach me.

 

Sincerely,

...Downhome...

[Guest Tim Cooke]

For an introduction tape, I would keep things simple and diverse.

 

My suggestions would be as follows:

 

7/74 Destroyer v Mascaras

7/77 Tsuruta v Race

One of the TM/DK matches

1/86 Choshu/Yatsu v Tsuruta/Yatsu

8/88 Takada v Yamazaki

6/89 Tsuruta v Tenyru

6/90 Misawa v Tsuruta

4/92 Liger v Samurai

7/93 Hansen v Kobashi

12/93 Misawa/Kobashi v Kawada/Taue

6/95 Misawa/Kobashi v Kawada/Taue

1/96 Inoki v Vader

1/97 Han v Tamura

6/98 Tamura v Kohsaka

 

It would need something from Mutoh (probably 8/91 v Chono would be best), Hashimoto (maybe 4/96 vs Takada as a double themed match).

 

Then you have Joshi. I would go for 2 matches. 11/92 Toyoda/Yamada v Ozaki/Kansai and 4/93 Hokuto v Kandori.

 

Any extra room and I would put 6/96 Misawa/Akiyama v Williams/Ace, 12/96 Misawa/Akiyama v Kawada/Taue, 8/94 Vader v Takada...

 

That should fill 6-8 hrs easily and all those matches can be attained in PERFECT VQ from the right sources so recording in EP won't kill them at all.

 

Tim

[Guest DragonflyKid]

I don't know what you have in your puroresu collection but try to include matches that not only define a style but also are great stand alone matches. 6/94 Misawa/Kawada is a great stand alone match but I feel 7/24/95 would be more exciting to a newbie and the psychology is less of a factor. 5/21/94 and 6/9/95 Misawa/Kobashi vs. Kawada/Taue and the '97 Misawa/Kobashi matches would also be great examples of the 90's AJPW style. The Cannam Express is also a great team for a newbie to get into, they're heelish and fun and have had great matches that a newbie can get into quite easily.

 

For juniors I'm assuming you have the '94 Super J Cup so the Sasuke/Liger and Sasuke/Benoit matches should be included. Also the Great Sasuke/Tiger Mask IV/Shiryu vs. Super Delphin/Naniwa/Michinoku 3/16/96 match and Yakushiji/Naniwa/Hamada/Tiger Mask IV/ Delphin vs. Michinoku/Funaki/Togo/Teioh/Shiryu 10/10/96 Michinoku Pro matches are great intros to that spot-oriented style.

 

If you're going to include Joshi opt for the Ozaki/Kansai vs. Toyota/Yamada matches instead of the Hokuto/Kandori DS match as that one should be viewed after watching prior matches and post-match stuff somewhat like the Misawa/Kawada 6/94 match should be seen after watching their previous encounters and knowing their history.

 

EDIT: I've seen the Tsuruta/Race match and I'd avoid putting that one on, it'll be hard for a current WWE to get into a match like that. The Doc/Ace vs. Akiyama/Misawa or Doc/Ace vs. Kobashi/Misawa matches would be great inclusions. Vader matches would also work as he'll be a familiar wrestler. Try to avoid the heavy stuff that requires alot of studying, newbies will get a kick out of the head-dropping stuff more even if the product is inferior.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

Cooke named off some good matches that really have little or no backstory at all with him. The Kid did so as well. Also, be sure to add the Champions Carnival 95 final with Akira Taue and Misawa. That's a great match as well. Also, see if you can't find Vader beating up Inoki during his farewell tour in 99 (?). Two great matches. Also, if you want to see what the NJ juniors fuss was all about in the mid 90s, you owe it to yourself to see Ohtani/Pegasus (Chris Benoit) vs. Black Tiger (Eddie)/Sasuke from the 94 Junior Tag League. Awesome awesome match.

[Guest Jubuki]

I think the RINGS stuff would be way too much to go for. There's more than enough UWFi to fill that out instead. The 10/94 Takada/Sano would be good - and I'd put the 1/90 Liger/Sano on there to introduce him, as well as including a match from the best early Jrs. feud. It may even be worth your time to wait a few more weeks and pick up the Benoit/Ohtani 3/96 match in full, once Highspots has it out. '96 Ohtani is too good to leave off something like this.

 

And Hokuto/Kandori is more than shocking/brutal enough to include. Yes, if anyone knows how much backstory goes into it, it's me, but a first viewing alone makes it pretty clear it's far, far better than the second or third Kansai/Ozaki vs. Toyota/Yamada matches.

[Guest DragonflyKid]

And Hokuto/Kandori is more than shocking/brutal enough to include. Yes, if anyone knows how much backstory goes into it, it's me, but a first viewing alone makes it pretty clear it's far, far better than the second or third Kansai/Ozaki vs. Toyota/Yamada matches.

 

I agree, I only think it sets up people for disappointment. It's like people being underwhelmed by Misawa/Kawada 6/94 after hearing it hyped as the greatest ever. At first I couldn't appreciate the DS match on the level other's did, I thought it was great but it wasn't until I watched their previous verbal and physical encounters before rewatching the DS match that I thought of it as one of the best I've ever seen. Seeing Akira Hokuto: Dangerous Queen Story recently made me appreciate it that much more.

 

BWT, I'm going off topic but since Chris knows Hokuto's backstory I was wondering what was going on in a clip I saw. I believe it took place in '90, Yamada was on the ring apron apparently injured and she gave an emotional speech, Hokuto then preceded to pound Mita. It seemed great and heated but I feel I'm missing something in the larger scheme of on on-going story. Are there any matches involving those wrestlers in the early 90's that are worth getting?

[Guest wolverine]

My Top 3 and ratings for each year since 1990....

 

1990:

 

1-Tsuruta vs. Misawa 9/1 ****3/4

2-Tsuruta vs. Misawa 6/8 ****3/4

3-Liger vs. Sano 1/31 ****1/2

 

1991:

 

1-Tsuruta/Fuchi/Taue vs. Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi 4/20 ****1/2

2-Tsuruta vs. Kawada 10/24 ****1/4

3-Tsuruta vs. Kobashi 5/24 ****1/4

 

1992:

 

1-Toyota/Yamada vs. Kansai/Ozaki 11/26 *****

2-Liger vs. Samurai 4/30 ****3/4

3-Kobashi/Kikuchi vs. Kroffat/Furnas 5/25 ****1/2

 

1993:

 

1-Hokuto vs. Kandori 4/2 *****

2-Misawa/Kobashi vs. Kawada/Taue 12/3 *****

3-Hansen vs. Kobashi 7/29 ****3/4

 

1994:

 

1-Misawa vs. Kawada 6/3 *****

2-Kong vs. Toyota 11/20 ****3/4

3-Kong/Nakano vs. Hokuto/Kandori 3/27 ****1/2

 

1995:

 

1-Misawa/Kobashi vs. Kawada/Taue 6/9 *****

2-Misawa/Kobashi vs. Kawada/Taue 10/15 ****3/4

3-Misawa vs. Kawada 7/24 ****3/4

 

1996:

 

1-Misawa/Akiyama vs. Kawada/Taue 12/6 *****

2-Misawa/Akiyama vs. Williams/Ace 6/7 ****3/4

3-Liger vs. Ohtani 3/17 ****1/2

 

1997:

 

1-Misawa vs. Kobashi 1/20 ****3/4

2-Tamura vs. Han 1/22 ****3/4

3-Tamura vs. Han 9/26 ****3/4

 

1998:

 

1-Tamura vs. Kohsaka 6/27 *****

2-Kawada vs. Kobashi 6/12 ****3/4

3-Kobashi vs. Akiyama 7/24 ****1/4

 

1999:

 

1-Kong vs. Satomura 9/15 ****1/2

2-Yoshida vs. Akino 1/17 ****1/4

3-Kobashi/Akiyama vs. Kawada/Taue 1/7 ****1/4

 

2000:

 

1-Ito/Nakanishi/Takahashi vs. Mita/Shimoda/Maekawa 11/23 ****1/4

2-Kawada/Fuchi vs. Nagata/Iizuka 12/14 ****

3-Ito vs. Mita 8/20 ***3/4

 

2001:

 

1-Ito vs. Nakanishi 9/16 ****1/2

2-Ito vs. Toyota 8/17 ****1/4

3-Ito vs. Nakanishi 7/8 ****1/4

[Guest Jubuki]

Just sounds like a Dream Orca vs. Marine Wolves encounter to me. Yamada was probably supposed to face Hokuto and couldn't, so her teammate took her place.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

Well I skipped the general wrestling thread, but I am assuming were talking about introduction to puro, I'd go with:

 

 

Misawa vs. Kawada 7/24/95-One of the most exciting and fast paced heavyweight matches I've ever seen. Please don't watch 6/3/94 until you are more familar with the sytle and backstory or it will spoil it for you.

 

Misawa/Kobashi vs. Kawada/Taue 6/9/95-Unlike 6/3/94 there is no backstory needed to appreciate. The story is almost as clear as day, and the workrate is incredable with over 20 straight minutes of high spots.

 

Kobashi vs. Hansen 7/29/93-A good way to shock people, and show them how realistic wrestling can be. The story is crystal clear, Hansen is an old badass and Kobashi is the underdog.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

Some more:

 

Kawada vs. Albright 10/25/95-Lighting quick reversals, surreal selling, and a good way to kill the head dropping, slow, bad selling stereotype that All Japan seems to be attached with nowadays.

 

Kroffat/Furnas vs. Kobashi/Kikuchi 5/25/92-A very fun match. It's got the moves, the heat, the story, and the jaw dropping hell on wheels pace.

 

Kawada vs. Kobashi 4/25/93-Before head dropping, weight gain, and dead crowds. The match is fast, stiff, and bloody(Kobashi breaks Kawada's nose with a Jacknife Powerbomb)

[Guest wolverine]

The date on the Kawada-Kobashi match is 4/14/93.

 

-wolverine, who's running out of matches to see, unfortunately. Ran YuYu, priority #1 now.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Kroffat/RVD would be a good one to stick on a starter tape. Fun and familiar.

[Guest blachuuh_monkey]

I think you should put Koji Katow?sp vs Mabel on it. That match rules but I don't know the date.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Ha. Maybe if you consider it a comedy match, yeah.

[Guest DragonflyKid]

Kroffat/RVD would be a good one to stick on a starter tape. Fun and familiar.

 

RVD vs. Kroffat 6/9/95 was a really good, fun match. The Hansen/RVD vs. Kawada/Kobashi 2/22/93 was good, Kawada lays a beating on Van Dam and looks visibly irrated after taking RVD's weak-looking kicks.

 

RVD and guys like Vader, Benoit and others would be good wrestlers to ease someone into watching puroresu.

 

-wolverine, who's running out of matches to see, unfortunately. Ran YuYu, priority #1 now.

 

I'm still relatively safe when it regards matches I've yet to see. It's fun getting introduced to something you love and knowing there's more out there to see. I've went through 90's AJPW and will probably order a custom from Lynch with the few remaining matches I need to see(The '92 Misawa/Kawada match, a Kawada/Tsuruta match and a Hansen/Kobashi handheld). I've got most of the must-see early-mid 90's Joshi matches but still need to fill in some gaps. I've picked up some '99-'02 Joshi recently and enjoy some of the new faces, I've got over a dozen Momoe matches over the last month and she's definitely a joy to watch. I still have lots of NJ juniors to watch, I'm not real interested in the NJ heavies though. The shootstyle stuff will probably have to wait until after the NJ Juniors but I'll get to it eventually.

[Guest wolverine]

It took me a lot longer to get to the point where I was satisfied with my collection, since I didn't take the easy route and get a bunch of 8 hr. comps or whatever - I spent TONS of money getting 99% of everything I own in 1st gen SP, since I'm a VQ nut. But in the long run it was worth it, since I got a chance to see wrestling that I never thought I'd see before. And unless this business gets good again, I'm kind of at a dead end at this point....

[Guest DragonflyKid]

I went the 6-8 hours TV block route with AJ, most of my AJ collection is made up of TV blocks with a few other shows and comps thrown in. Most of my favorite matches are in VG+ VQ and the few that aren't will be upgraded.

 

With Joshi I have two 6 hour comps of some of the best matches because I wanted to get a sense of the style and wrestlers. I got two 6-hour 2001 comps to get 2001 covered a bit. Aside from that I have focused on getting single shows with the exception of a few comps that are in SP mode and have EX VQ that cover a particular wrestler that I was interested in. 95% of my Joshi collection has VG VQ or better with about 85%+ of it being in SP with EX VQ as I too have become a VQ nut. I recently upgraded my Thunderqueen Battle(Part 2) to EX VQ and will be upgrading Arsion Carnival '99 as well as getting Arsion Starlet '99, both in SP and both with EX VQ.

 

I have tended to go for the hyped matches then filling in the gaps which I do regret, I wish I had gone chronologically and seen the hyped matches along the way to getting a better sense of how they were built to. I didn't think it mattered at first, I wasn't aware of the fact there was great stand-alone matches and matches that can only be appreciated fully when the history behind them is understood.

[Guest wolverine]

For Arsion, Stardom '99 (Jan-Feb) is a must, largely for the Yoshida-Akino match, which is the best match in company history in my view. Once you get a sampling of this and other Arsion tapes from early that year, it'll become pretty clear that NOBODY in the world was better than Mariko Yoshida.

[Guest cynicalprofit]

Steiners in Japan to show they didnt suck

[Guest XdojimeX]

"Steiners in Japan to show they didnt suck"

 

Heh, you mean superworker Hase bumping, selling, and all around carrying their heavyweight spot-fu asses to good matches to show they didn't suck.

[Guest cynicalprofit]

Ive never seen the Steiners in Japan, but I know that the reviews I read of them over there are all like 4* matches. And the Steiners vs Izuka(sp) and someone else in WCW was an awesome stiffest. So maybe its the Stieners or maybes its Hase.(Which really wouldnt suprise me because all the Hase work I have seen has been atleast 3* no matter who he was facing, the guy is that freaking good.)

[EL DANDY~! 0]

If I was Downy...I'd showcase all the great matches with the BIG superstars in Japan. Gaijin with the superstars (like RVD/Hansen vs. Kobashi/Kawada) is great, too. It has to be dispersed.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I think the "big superstars" idea is a bit iffy - you risk allienating the viewer by showing them someone "big" instead of explaining how they got big. Introductions to the various styles and workers would probably be an easier method of convincing someone that it's worth persuing.

 

And I think the "familiar faces" idea is being really over-done. If you want familiarity mixed in with good work, the J-cups work just fine. There are plenty of matches with familiar faces that aren't worth watching at all, and might be more likely to turn people away from seeing more. The tag you mentioned, El Dandy, for example, doesn't seem all that neccesary when you could just have Hansen's singles matches with Kawada and Kobashi. No offense, it just seems that even without the familiar face of Van Dam in there, the quality is sure to be much higher in those matches and you still get to see Hansen, who U.S. fans should at least know of. Sacrificing match quality for familiarity alone is not an even trade - not if you're trying to get the people interested in the Japanese product.

 

"THIS is supposed to be the richest, deepest wrestling I'll ever watch? It didn't even make sense! Screw this, I'll take my X Division any day!" - Average Joe after seeing Liger/Muta for the first time

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

I think sacrificing a little quality for diversity on the tape is a good thing, though. I mean, if we took Wolverine's list he posted earlier, which is awesome stuff, but it doesn't showcase a variety of styles. Sure, the big AJPW matches are better than some fun MPro stuff, but this tape should probably be geared towards bits and pieces of several promotions and styles, rather than focusing on just Kawada or Hokuto, for example.

[Guest XdojimeX]

"Ive never seen the Steiners in Japan, but I know that the reviews I read of them over there are all like 4* matches. And the Steiners vs Izuka(sp) and someone else in WCW was an awesome stiffest. So maybe its the Stieners or maybes its Hase.(Which really wouldnt suprise me because all the Hase work I have seen has been atleast 3* no matter who he was facing, the guy is that freaking good.)"

 

I dug the Steiners too. It's just if you break it down they we're somewhere between a pair of heavyweight RVDs and Sasuke's if you know what I mean. Ton of fun to watch in their prime but they often needed to be reigned in (ergo Hase). Something which isn't really touched upon when you see fans pimping Steiners as an all-time great tag team. That Iizuka match is a good example of Steiners doing their best Road Warrior impersonation.

 

Oddly enough their match vs. Sting/Luger might be my favorite from the duo. Neither team was very capable of leading but it's one of those matches where all the performers are hitting on all cylinders and they end up working way over their heads to a great match.

[Guest wolverine]

"I mean, if we took Wolverine's list he posted earlier, which is awesome stuff, but it doesn't showcase a variety of styles."

 

I disagree with you here. Not that it matters, since I doubt very many of the matches I listed will be on the tape, but the reason I spread the list out to cover until 2001, is so it *wouldn't* be so AJPW centric. I agree that M-Pro matches should be on a newbie tape, it's just that I don't think they hold up very well in the long run, due to their highspot nature.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I think sacrificing a little quality for diversity on the tape is a good thing, though. I mean, if we took Wolverine's list he posted earlier, which is awesome stuff, but it doesn't showcase a variety of styles. Sure, the big AJPW matches are better than some fun MPro stuff, but this tape should probably be geared towards bits and pieces of several promotions and styles, rather than focusing on just Kawada or Hokuto, for example.

I said that quality should be more important than plain familiarity, not diversity. Diversity is a good thing, but I was refering to Dany's choice of Hansen/Van Dam vs. Kobashi/Kawada, as opposed to just cutting RVD out of the mix and sticking Hansen's singles matches with Tosh and Kenta on there instead. You sacrifice familiarity because newer U.S. fans aren't as familiar with Stan as they are with Van Dam, but the quality difference is great enough that it's worth chosing the singles matches, in my opinion.

 

Many Wolverine's picks for the ninties are from AJPW and AJW, but those matches are all diverse enough because those promotions were diverse. There are fast tag sprints, brutal monster/underdog matches, and epic passing of the Torch moments. The RINGS stuff is probably best to wait on, since that's the kind of thing newer fans won't really appreciate from the begining. I also think a little more NJ Juniors could go a long way in adapting newer viewers, and it's probably best to hold off on Misawa/Kawada as usual, but otherwise I think that list would be perfect.

 

But like Wolverine said, most of it probably won't make it onto the tape.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

I still think that 6/3/94 is good on it's own, though. Let it be the viewer's choice to go out and see why the psychology is so deep, and how deep the hatred lies. Now, Chosyu brings up many good points. I do agree with him on most of it, but just because you can't make an entire tape that is centered around Misawa and Kawada to a newer viewer shouldn't mean you can't put on some of their greatest achievments...like 6/3/94.

[Guest wolverine]

If you're going to put a Misawa-Kawada match on there, opt for 3/27/93 or 7/24/95, since the pace on both is faster than usual, which I feel would make them a bit more accessible to a new viewer. Only reason why I listed 6/3/94 is because it happened to be the best match of the year (which should become clear upon a ton of viewing experience), though not necessarily one I'd recommend to anyone starting out.

 

For fuck's sake, stay away from that late 90's headdropping stuff though. You want to make the viewer come back for more, not dismiss it as slow and boring, with a ton of no-selling.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

What about Kobashi beating Misawa for the TC? Kobashi steered away from the usual head-droppingness and actually *gasp* tried to destroy his arm and go the psychology route instead of suplexing him to death? In the middle of all the head-dropping, it stood out as a fine match, I would say...