Question to all you Puroresu fans...

[Guest wolverine]

What about Kobashi beating Misawa for the TC? Kobashi steered away from the usual head-droppingness and actually *gasp* tried to destroy his arm and go the psychology route instead of suplexing him to death? In the middle of all the head-dropping, it stood out as a fine match, I would say...

Kobashi never beat Misawa for the Triple Crown, young man.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

What about Kobashi beating Misawa for the TC? Kobashi steered away from the usual head-droppingness and actually *gasp* tried to destroy his arm and go the psychology route instead of suplexing him to death? In the middle of all the head-dropping, it stood out as a fine match, I would say...

Actually you got the psychology reversed. In All Japan limb working to avoid losing always leads to doom. It shows that the wrestler is more focused on not losing, rather than winning. As in all sports, using this strategy will most likely meet with failure.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

oops...my bad...I'm a little tipsy from tonight...

 

happy new *burp*...

 

*DANDY~! falls to the floor*

[Guest RickyChosyu]

What about Kobashi beating Misawa for the TC? Kobashi steered away from the usual head-droppingness and actually *gasp* tried to destroy his arm and go the psychology route instead of suplexing him to death? In the middle of all the head-dropping, it stood out as a fine match, I would say...

Actually you got the psychology reversed. In All Japan limb working to avoid losing always leads to doom. It shows that the wrestler is more focused on not losing, rather than winning. As in all sports, using this strategy will most likely meet with failure.

I have to disagree with that. If a wrestler nuetralizes his opponent or a specific limb to protect themselves from a certain attack, it adds a layer of depth to the psychology. If a wrestler is unable to win the match because of an injury, it's only a matter of how effective their opponent is at taking the initiative to win the match. By disabling any threat to themselves, wrestlers create an easier situation for themselvs, and can focus on simply find a way to get the win as opposed to worrying about how they can lose.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

I agree that M-Pro matches should be on a newbie tape, it's just that I don't think they hold up very well in the long run, due to their highspot nature.

 

Totally agreed, but it's still fun stuff to watch once in a while.

 

As for 6/3/94, I'd DEFINITELY hold out on that one. It was the first AJPW match I ever saw, and obviously wasn't that good of a choice, since I had ZERO idea what the style was like, let alone anything about the workers or the feud, and as a result, I found it really underwhelming.

 

Needless to say, my opinion of that masterpiece has changed a bit since I first saw it.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

What about Kobashi beating Misawa for the TC? Kobashi steered away from the usual head-droppingness and actually *gasp* tried to destroy his arm and go the psychology route instead of suplexing him to death? In the middle of all the head-dropping, it stood out as a fine match, I would say...

Actually you got the psychology reversed. In All Japan limb working to avoid losing always leads to doom. It shows that the wrestler is more focused on not losing, rather than winning. As in all sports, using this strategy will most likely meet with failure.

I have to disagree with that. If a wrestler nuetralizes his opponent or a specific limb to protect themselves from a certain attack, it adds a layer of depth to the psychology. If a wrestler is unable to win the match because of an injury, it's only a matter of how effective their opponent is at taking the initiative to win the match. By disabling any threat to themselves, wrestlers create an easier situation for themselvs, and can focus on simply find a way to get the win as opposed to worrying about how they can lose.

O.k, did Kawada ever beat Misawa by working over his arm to the point he couldn't throw his elbows?Did Kobashi ever beat Misawa by working over the arm, until he couldn't throw the elbows? I don't think so.

[Guest Jubuki]

No, but finishes don't tell the whole story. Kawada worked Misawa's bad knee over in the 5/1/98 match, which helped him win. Akiyama clearly works the neck (though that's what everyone did) to beat Misawa on 2/27/00. Kawada's bad knee led to his loss on 12/3/93. Kobashi's bum leg was a critical factor in the 6/9/95 loss. Misawa made Jumbo submit to a facelock during a tag match, which was famously recalled in his first TC defense against Kawada (though that wasn't the finish).

 

Care to try this again?

 

AJ uses body part psych like a lot of other companies have - it's merely an avenue into more familiar offense before kicking off the final run of the match. Sometimes, such as Kawada/Albright, it goes beyond that, and the body part work becomes a finish. But, those in the main event rarely, if ever, worked submissions as finishes. That hardly means that working a limb is a plan for failure. The big problem here isn't that the psych being explained is wrong; it would work, if the matches in question (Misawa's '97 TC win and defenses against Kobashi and Kawada) weren't flawed. 1/20/97 may be a candidate to some for Best Men's Singles Match Ever, but it doesn't make it a perfectly-worked, or even very smartly-worked, match. People need to learn that, even when we think something is spectacular, it's still open to criticism.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

No, but finishes don't tell the whole story. Kawada worked Misawa's bad knee over in the 5/1/98 match, which helped him win. Akiyama clearly works the neck (though that's what everyone did) to beat Misawa on 2/27/00. Kawada's bad knee led to his loss on 12/3/93. Kobashi's bum leg was a critical factor in the 6/9/95 loss. Misawa made Jumbo submit to a facelock during a tag match, which was famously recalled in his first TC defense against Kawada (though that wasn't the finish).

 

Care to try this again?

 

AJ uses body part psych like a lot of other companies have - it's merely an avenue into more familiar offense before kicking off the final run of the match. Sometimes, such as Kawada/Albright, it goes beyond that, and the body part work becomes a finish. But, those in the main event rarely, if ever, worked submissions as finishes. That hardly means that working a limb is a plan for failure. The big problem here isn't that the psych being explained is wrong; it would work, if the matches in question (Misawa's '97 TC win and defenses against Kobashi and Kawada) weren't flawed. 1/20/97 may be a candidate to some for Best Men's Singles Match Ever, but it doesn't make it a perfectly-worked, or even very smartly-worked, match. People need to learn that, even when we think something is spectacular, it's still open to criticism.

No, No, I didn't mean to come off like all limb working leads to failure. There's a big difference between working over an injury, than say Kobashi attacking Hansen's Lariat arm in the 4/16/93 match. The attacking the past injury startegy seems to work just fine in All Japan it's been a key sub plot in several matches, but I've never seen the limb working to prevent a killer strike work. It may delay the pin, but guys like Hansen or Misawa would always find another way to win.

 

I guess it depends on the intentions of the limb working, if it's soley for defense(like 1/20/97) it usually doesn't work, but if it's to build your own offense(like Jun working the neck) or to go after a past injury to take control of the match(like 12/3/93 or even 6/3/94) it tends to work. Kobashi going after Kawada's leg in 12/3/93 certaintly wasn't to prevent Kawada from landing a kick, it seemed more like Kobashi couldn't handle Kawada and needed to find some offense to take control back.

[Guest J*ingus]

I think everyone is missing the main point: time constraints. This tape is only eight hours, at the longest. It's supposed to be an Introduction to Puro video, giving people who've never watched it before a first look at as many different wrestlers, promotions, and styles as possible.

 

Yet there are so many different promotions that have had a major effect over the past decade or two: All Japan, New Japan, NOAH, Zero-One, Toryumon, Michinoku Pro, FMW, All Japan Women, Arsion, UWFi, etcetera, etcetera. That's not even counting the really more obscure stuff (Big Japan, Jd, Osaka Pro, whatever Tenryu's doing this week, and so on).

 

So, on average, I'd say that any single promotion shouldn't get more than maybe two or three matches at most on the tape. The question is, which two or three matches are the absolute best introduction to that promotion for a complete newbie?

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

The big problem here isn't that the psych being explained is wrong; it would work, if the matches in question (Misawa's '97 TC win and defenses against Kobashi and Kawada) weren't flawed.  1/20/97 may be a candidate to some for Best Men's Singles Match Ever, but it doesn't make it a perfectly-worked, or even very smartly-worked, match.  People need to learn that, even when we think something is spectacular, it's still open to criticism.

Speaking of 1/20/97 match, I still have no clue what the hell is going on in that match. It's still very fun to watch, and one of the best 40+ minute men's singles matches I've seen, but the story to me at least is very puzzling at times.

 

You have Kobashi doing far more than just working over the arm to stop the elbows, he hammers it for over 10 minutes. He even busts out some head drops in between, only to go back to the arm. This kind of gives me the impression, that Kobashi had Misawa in trouble, but he was still too worried about the arm to strike while the iron was hot. That's what I got from it.

 

I do enjoy the begining and the end of the 97 Misawa/Kawada match, just edit out all that head dropping nonsense in the middle, since there is no way that Misawa could logically come back from all that, and it was an awesome brawl.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

No, No, I didn't mean to come off like all limb working leads to failure.  There's a big difference between working over an injury, than say Kobashi attacking Hansen's Lariat arm in the 4/16/93 match.  The attacking the past injury startegy seems to work just fine in All Japan it's been a key sub plot in several matches, but I've never seen the limb working to prevent a killer strike work.  It may delay the pin, but guys like Hansen or Misawa would always find another way to win.  

 

I guess it depends on the intentions of the limb working, if it's soley for defense(like 1/20/97) it usually doesn't work, but if it's to build your own offense(like Jun working the neck) or to go after a past injury to take control of the match(like 12/3/93 or even 6/3/94) it tends to work.  Kobashi going after Kawada's leg in 12/3/93 certaintly wasn't to prevent Kawada from landing a kick, it seemed more like Kobashi couldn't handle Kawada and needed to find some offense to take control back.

It would seem that in AJPW, working over the arm to prevent a killer strike usually doesn't bring good results, but that doesn't make it logical. In the Kong/Kansai match I just watched, for example, Aja's Uraken arm becomes a target because she used the move five or six times to beat Kansai in their previous match. So, Kansai, not wanting that to happen again, works the arm until Aja has to go outside and have someone tape it up. This makes it much harder for Aja to win the match, and, though it wasn't the only thing that lead to her loss, it was a major plot point within the match based on how reliant she had been on it before.

 

There was nothing stopping Misawa, Hansen, and Kobashi from working a match similar to this with their strikes. Hell, the examples you bring up show that there were even hints at it happening.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

It would seem that in AJPW, working over the arm to prevent a killer strike usually doesn't bring good results, but that doesn't make it logical. In the Kong/Kansai match I just watched, for example, Aja's Uraken arm becomes a target because she used the move five or six times to beat Kansai in their previous match. So, Kansai, not wanting her that to happen again, works the arm until Aja has to go outside and have someone tape it up. This makes it much harder for Aja to win the match, and, though it wasn't the only thing that lead to her loss, it was a major plot point within the match based on how reliant she had been on it before.

 

There was nothing stopping Misawa, Hansen, and Kobashi from working a match similar to this with their strikes. Hell, the examples you bring up show that there were even hints at it happening.

Yeah, it would have been very interesting to have that happen in 1/20/97 match between Kobashi/Misawa. When I first saw it I thought that was going to happen, since it was more than a little work, it just dragged and dragged on. It isn't illogical, but it to me it seemed like it was symbolic of the "playing not to lose" strategy that is often used in sports.

 

Not to bring the NFL into this, but take for example the Tampa Bay Bucs of the past few years. The whole offense was designed to not make mistakes(not to lose), rather than put up points. The result saw them get out gunned in the playoffs every year, by risk taking offenses.

[Guest wolverine]

For great intros, I'd go with:

 

All Japan:

 

-Misawa vs. Tsuruta 6/8/90

-Misawa/Kobashi/Akiyama vs. Kawada/Taue/Ogawa 7/2/93

-Misawa/Kobashi vs. Kawada/Taue 6/9/95

 

New Japan:

 

-Liger vs. Samurai 4/30/92

-Benoit vs. Sasuke 4/16/94

-Ultimo vs. Ohtani 8/4/96

 

All Japan Women:

 

-Toyota/Yamada vs. Kansai/Ozaki 11/26/92

-Kong vs. Toyota 11/20/94

-Ito vs. Nakanishi 9/16/01

 

Arsion:

 

-Yoshida vs. Akino 1/17/99

 

Gaea:

 

-Kong vs. Satomura 9/15/99

 

UWFi:

 

-Takada vs. Vader 8/18/94

 

RINGS:

 

-Tamura vs. Han 1/22/97

 

Michinoku Pro:

 

-10/10/96 10-man tag

 

Everything listed above is **** and above. I haven't seen anything from NOAH or Toryumon that I feel would be worthy of tape space, especially if it's just for representation purposes, when there's loads of other material that would be a better fit.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

Toryumon-CRAZY MAX vs. Magnum TOKYO, Dragon Kid and whoever their third person is. Those 6-mans are bueno...and I mean MUY bueno.

[Guest J*ingus]

Yeah Wolverine, that is a good list, but it's still part of my point. Misawa gets three matches, and Kong, Toyota, Kobashi, Kawada, and Taue all get two. Meanwhile, all these people are nowhere to be seen: Dynamite Kid, Tiger Mask, Hashimoto, Mutoh, Chono, Nagata, Tenzan, Kojima, Tenryu, Hase, Guerrero, Hokuto, Kandori, Tanaka, Onita, the Funks, Hansen, Brody, Doc, Gordy, Abdullah, Honma, Hayabusa, Sasaki, Choshu, Nishimura, Yokota, Yoshida, Kudo, Nakano, Asuka, Baba, the Steiners, and Inoki. I'm sure plenty of people who've never seen puro before are curious about at least some of those. In this case, I do think variety is more important than quality. I think we need a "nobody in more than one match" rule, with an exception for AJPW maybe.

[Guest Joejigatame]

It's a shame that there's litte representation of New Japan heavyweights anywhere. I'd go for...

 

Akira Maeda vs. Tatsumi Fujinami (NJPW, 6/12/86)

 

Keiji Muto vs. Yuji Nagata (G1 Climax 2001 Final)

 

Maybe the Takada-Hashimoto match from the 96 Dome show.

 

Some would say they're lacking in comparison with the All Japan stuff, and rightfully so, but they're pretty enjoyable.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Personally, if you're going to go that route, I'd recomend:

 

Mutoh vs. Chono 8/11/91

 

Vader vs. Inoki 1/4/96

 

Hashimoto vs. Chosyu 8/10/96

[Guest The Last Free Voice]

hi ,um, new to puro, [probly getting this tape] but could someone explian the different styles? I have read alot about the AJ Heavy style, NJ Junors style and so on, but whats the differeance? [i'm to lazy to spell today]

[Guest Jubuki]

Fine, you guys want a great tape? Here it is.

 

With 8 hours of tape time, the most important thing is going to be to keep the individual matches short without sacrificing quality. Ring intros are going to eat up valuable space, but they shouldn't be chopped out altogether (if nothing else, you hear their names or see chyron and it makes it a little easier to differentiate between people). It's entirely possible to show just one singles/tag match of a particular person and still keep quality and short run times. But, you can't just churn out the usual suspects like they're the only things worthwhile.

 

 

1. Destroyer vs. Stan Hansen, 10/30/75 - An out-of-the-ordinary pick, but it's a fantastic way to get acclimated to matwork-heavy matches without losing any interest in the work. Simple, but solid and entertaining. It'll be a good contrast to the Hansen match to add later on, and it's good as an intro to Beyer. A tape like this can't be made without him. It's between 13 and 15 minutes all told.

 

2. Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask, 1/28/82 - I've always been partial to this match out of their series; it's not as heated as the 4/83 restart match, but this one is far less nutty in its selling and pacing. DK keeps him on the mat, TM sells it well, and then we get the Superman comeback that would define big Jrs. matches for years to come. Plus, it's only 9:30 or so, about 11+ with intros. I'd like to see DK's matches with Kobayashi, but I'm going on what I have on tape, so this makes it.

 

3. Ric Flair vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, 4/24/85 - A long match, but another good 'intro' match. Jumbo takes Flair By Numbers about as far as it will go, using a lot of big offense to make Flair's cowardly behavior and clownish heel spots seem believable and sensible in the context of the match. It's probably 28 with intros.

 

4. Tsuruta/Tenryu vs. Choshu/Yatsu, 1/28/86 - Longer than some of the others, but very much worth it. Plus, this gets Tenryu out of the way and rounds out Jumbo's contributions (even if some of his later matches may be better). About 26 for the match, maybe 29 with the "If you can't beat me, you never will!" stuff going on at the beginning.

 

5. Bob Backlund vs. Nobuhiko Takada, 12/22/88 - Just to show Backlund could really go, not to mention that it's a decent lead-in to worked shoots. It skirts the line between pro and shoot-style, but that's what makes it so interesting. This one's also about 28 or 29 minutes.

 

6. Jushin Liger vs. Naoki Sano, 1/31/90 - Too heated and wild to exclude. It's easy to get into with the mask-ripping and blood, and Liger busts out the Shooting Star Press years before Kidman started screwing them up. Maybe 19, as the only version I've seen is clipped, and there's about 16 minutes of actual action.

 

7. Hase/Sasaki vs. Steiners, 3/21/91 - This is only 13 minutes, and it's complete, so it's very much worth the time. A total of 15 with intros, and you get to see the Steiners in their best work period keeping up with a team that could really go at that point. The 11/90 match with Mutoh/Chono in place of the Steiners might actually be a better choice, but I haven't seen it (though it has come highly praised and clocks in around 19 minutes).

 

So there's your first two and a half hours down. Lots of gaijin, a couple of tags, a shoot-style match, some fun Jrs. work, and everything's really good.

 

8. Jushin Liger vs. El Samurai, 4/30/92 - Really fun, almost a reversal of roles from the 1/90 match. Easy to get into because it's heated almost like a Southern match, with cheap tactics and punching and face-gouging and mask-ripping to the extreme. About 25 for this. Mutoh/Chono from the G-1 could go in place of this, as they don't pop up anywhere else, though it's about 31 minutes (making it the longest match on the tape).

 

9. Manami Toyota vs. Toshiyo Yamada, 8/15/92 - I'd go ahead and skip straight to this, partly because it's their shortest match that year and partly because it's easy to digest on a first run, easier than their 6/21 match, which has more of the useless matwork that's all over the first half of this. The near-falls are what make this worthwhile, and I'd be inclined to include a few minutes of the hair-cutting as well. You're talking probably 23-24 for this.

 

10. Misawa/Kobashi/Akiyama vs. Kawada/Taue/Ogawa, 7/2/93 - A bit longish, but it's introducing a lot of people all at once, and it's a Hell of a match. Probably the best 6-man I've ever seen. I think it goes around 28, and it's worth every minute.

 

11. Stan Hansen vs. Kenta Kobashi, 7/29/93 - It's near-impossible not to include this. A fantastic continuation of Kobashi's work from the 6-man, and a great contrast to Bumbling Oaf Hansen from the first match. About 25, and probably the best match on here.

 

12. Akira Hokuto vs. Manami Toyota, 8/21/93 - Maybe Hokuto's best singles match other than The Match. Really different from the Yamada match, as they find ways together to make the holds and matwork matter in the framework of the match, rather than just tossing them out to kill time the way Toyota did with Yamada. Around 18 or so.

 

13. Kyoko Inoue vs. Shinobu Kandori, 8/25/93 - A good teaser for Hokuto/Kandori, should one choose to track down that feud, as it shows Kandori could work and sell and keep up with more people than just the Queen of Great Work; she blows right by Kyoko and makes the phrase "Death by Kandori" have a whole lot of meaning. About 20. You could probably cut both of these last two matches out and include the 1-2 punch of Hokuto/Toyota vs. Yamada/Inoue from the 12/93 TLTB final and save yourself about 5 minutes in the process, but it means no Kandori and it's hard to understand why the TLTB final is such an emotional match without the 12/6/93 Kandori match as a lead-in.

 

14. Benoit/Ohtani vs. Sasuke/Black Tiger, 10/16/94 - This goes about 18 before they wrap it up, but it's yet another easy match to dig into. Some familiar faces, tons of spots, lots of fun and relatively short for a big match. 20 with the extra stuff.

 

15. Aja Kong vs. Dynamite Kansai, 11/20/94 - Only 12+ on this, but it's brutal and fun and works pretty well as a stand-alone match. No need to know this is a tournament. 14 with the extra stuff, and you've got your two Aja matches and a Kansai match.

 

16. Shin'ya Hashimoto vs. Hiroshi Hase, 12/13/94 - Only 13+ of 29 was shown on TV, but that's more than enough to love the Hell out of this. Just a huge, man-sized ass-stomping dished out and taken. Not my favorite Hash match, but it's up there. Maybe 14:30 total.

 

17. Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Akira Taue, 9/10/95 - I'd take this because it's shorter than the Carny final, even though I like the Carny final more. This is no slouch itself, though, and serves as a pretty good contrast to what Hash and Hase were doing. This is on another level entirely. About 24.

 

18. Toshiaki Kawada vs. Gary Albright, 10/25/95 - Only 17-18, and it's pretty fantastic. Maybe a little harder to get into, but it's not entirely without a home on this tape, as this is going to remind viewers of the Takada and Kandori matches in some ways. Plus, it's an amazing performance by Kawada.

 

19. Vader vs. Antonio Inoki, 1/4/96 - Maybe 16 total, and it's a blast throughout. They probably could have made more with a longer match, and in some ways it requires the set-up of knowing why the cross armbreaker matters that night as well as why it's a credible finish on Vader, but it's still an old man getting the shit kicked out of him like you wouldn't believe. Totally skunks the 12/93 Vader/Flair match, and Vader was better then.

 

20. Shin'ya Hashimoto vs. Riki Choshu, 8/2/96 - Just a big pile of shit-kicking from two guys who could dish it out. Did a great job of setting up the rest of the tournament, but this is more than enough fun on its own to include. About 19-20.

 

About an hour left, so make it count, right?

 

21. K-DX vs. Sasuke/Naniwa/Delfin/Hamada/Tiger Mask, 12/9/96 - Only a clipped version is available, but the last 15 minutes, with TOGO, Teioh, & TAKA vs. Delfin, Sasuke, and Naniwa, are great. Really a much better performance than one should expect out of 17 year-old Naniwa, and a good play on Sasuke's head injuries, not to mention outstanding heel work. About 27 with intros.

 

22. Volk Han vs. Kiyoshi Tamura, 1/22/97 - Best short match I'm going to see. This was actually the first worked shoot I ever watched, and I was just blown away despite not being too into matwork when I picked this up (around 9/00). Still, it's simply incredible to watch them work this as quickly and as gracefully as they do. About 17 total, maybe a little less.

 

23. Yuki Ishikawa vs. Daisuke Ikeda, 5/27/98 - The best match in BattlARTS history. Just tons of stiff kicks and headbutts and punches to the face without the pedestrian matwork that ruins their overpimped match the following year. This is also a good bit shorter, as it runs about 21 with intros, if that.

 

 

That takes the tape through 1998, with a pretty wide variety of workers and styles covered, some 80's footage to show that Flair wasn't the only thing going at the time, lots of good 90's stuff without anything going too long to lose one's attention, and only 3 of the matches (the AJ 6-man, Hansen/Kobashi, and Tamura/Han) rank among the top 2 or 3 matches I've seen from a given genre. It introduces the great workers and shows what they can do without spoiling much of their very best. And, virtually all of this should be available from Lynch in VG/EX quality. The NJ TV stuff I wouldn't immediately trust, but the NJ Classics eps and comms cover a good bit of that footage.