Did WCW ruin the InVasion Angle?

[Guest Angle-plex]

I was just watching KOTR '01, where Booker T interfered and attacked Austin. I started to think about how it wasn't a bad start to the angle, and then I wondered where it all went downhill.

 

I started watching PPV after PPV from KOTR '01 until Survivor Series '01 (Not all of each Pay Per View, just the main events). I have come to the conclusion that Austin turning on WWF was the major downfall of the InVasion (which I'm sure many people agree with).

 

After that, I started thinking about how I would have booked the invasion angle. Suddenly, I relized that what I would have booked would have just been a rehash of the nWo angle. It was then that I started thinking that, in a way, Bishoff, or whoever was in charge of the nWo angle, sort of fucked up the InVasion 6 years before it even started.

 

I'm sure Vince didn't want to do a nWo rehash, so I guess he tried something different. Of course, that "something" was a complete disaster that I wish I never saw, but it was different.

 

I dunno.

[Guest ISportsFan]

The problem wasn't necessarily that Austin was turned to WCW, but the main problem was that nobody but Austin in WCW was ever given a chance to pick up wins. WCW was subsequently seen as second-rate (something WWF/E fans thought already), and therefore the angle never got off the ground.

 

If WCW came in and seemed like a dominant force (as heels), it could have made MILLIONS. But, they didn't do anything but lose, and thus the angle lost viewers.

 

Jason

[Guest razazteca]

1) DDP, Scott Steiner, Shane Douglas, Raven should of been the leaders of the evil heel invasion.

 

2) the McMAHONs being the main focus killed it at the begining.

 

3) It should of just been Paul Heyman and/or Bischoff as managers/figure heads.

 

4) Undertaker no sold DDP

[Zetterberg is God 0]

The Bagwell/Booker T match did not help matters either. I also believe that the lack of big names (Hogan,nWo,Flair) at the begining of the Invasion was also a significant factor in the failure of the whole angle.

[Guest Mad Dog]

Several reasons it failed:

 

1. WCW was constantly made to look like chumps. They rarely if ever won clean.

 

2. After the first month it was 90% WWF guys so who cared anymore.

 

3. What was left of the WCW guys sucked up to Austin.

 

4. So many title changes that they couldn't even televise them.

 

5. Not for even a brief second did anyone ever think WCW was going to win.

[Guest HartFan86]

The problem the WWF had was they didn't get big names. Period. If Hogan, Flair, Steiner, Luger, Sting, etc. had all signed on with the WWF in March of 2001, the InVasion angle would still be going.

 

As Bischoff said when he was on Raw as the new GM:

 

"I was in charge of the REAL WCW. Not the watered down version that invaded this company."

[Guest HartFan86]

But now thinking about it, Angle-plex, your point does make sense that the InVasion angle was doomed to fail because nothing could out do the nWo.

 

Thing is, you would have WCW be SUCCESSFUL. Remember, the nWo only got their own PPV and never their own TV show (*cough* Nitro).

 

I'm sure if WCW took over Raw, then it would even be better than the nWo angle.

[Guest Slapnuts00]

Yeah, from the start they should have brought in Flair, Nash, Hall, Hogan, Steiner and Bishoff (Goldberg too if possible).

But actually what really killed it was TNN. Vince wanted a 2 hour timeslot for a WCW program, but they didn't want to be known as "The Wrestling Channel" remember that? So they gave them 2 hours on Saturday night instead which wasn't too good, but then Booker vs. Bagwell bombed and Vince scratched the whole idea of seperate shows. And even though the ECW angle was awesome when it happened, it just influxed a bunch of WWF guys into the group, which meant that the WCW guys just became part of the WWF and there was no seperate organization anymore. O well, it's a lost cause no point in rehashing it.

[Guest HartFan86]

Yeah, so you could sorta blame it on them leaving USA, because I'm sure USA would of given them whatever they wanted.

[Paul Stanley 0]

Bradshaw didn't want Palumbo/O'Haire to go over cause he was apart of the Good Ole' Boy network

 

Same goes with Undertaker

[Guest BoboBrazil]

Even without the guys like Sting and Flair, the invasion could have been a huge success. The thing was doomed from the start though, because WCW never got any wins and the thing was booked horribly. Vince comes out and lets WCW have it's own matches with its own guys and they do stupid stuff like keeping the arena red during the matches. Things could have still turned around even after that when ECW merged with WCW, but all hope for it was killed in that same night when Steph announced she was owner of ECW. I knew the angle was dead then. It got so ridiculous then, especially when 95% of the faction was just WWF guys. I think during the Survivor Series main event over who got full control of the company, there was 1 guy that was actually from WCW in it..

[Guest Angle-plex]

In case I didn't clarify, I meant that the real invasion was the original nWo angle in '96. It pretty much was WWF/WCW. The 2001 Invasion was kind of like WWF vs WCW Part II.

[Paul Stanley 0]

It was all an ego boost for the McMahons, even though it should of just been Shane/Vince

 

Even though i think Steph was just taking over head writing at the time

[Guest Mole]

The problem the WWF had was they didn't get big names. Period. If Hogan, Flair, Steiner, Luger, Sting, etc. had all signed on with the WWF in March of 2001, the InVasion angle would still be going.

 

As Bischoff said when he was on Raw as the new GM:

 

"I was in charge of the REAL WCW. Not the watered down version that invaded this company."

Yes, exactly. If WCW brought in some big names, then the InVasion would of gone somewhere. Just think if WCW had all the big names. Not only if they had their big names, but if some of the major players in WWF(E) didn't get hurt. However, you can't stop injuries, so just if WCW had big players.

 

Just think, this could of been the InVasion main event:

 

WWF:

SCSA

The Rock

Chris Jericho

Kurt Angle

The Undertaker

 

WCW:

Hogan

Goldberg

Steiner

Flair

Booker T

 

Just a thought of the good card. However, I don't think the egos of WCW would of been done like that.

 

But if the big names were signed, WCW still could of gotten over if one thing was different. If Vince actually allowed WCW to look credible. If Taker didn't squash DDP. If DDP beat Taker, than the whole InVasion thing would of been different, IMHO.

[Paul Stanley 0]

Yeah but Undertaker was worried that DDP was gonna take his "spot" just like Bradshaw/Farooq's spot(Bradshaw was the vocal one) was afraid of being taken by the fresh/young team of O'haire/Palumbo.

 

Hey, if i was Taker and saw a guy older than me that could put on a better match than i could of i would pull a HHH/Taker too

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

If WCW came in and seemed like a dominant force (as heels), it could have made MILLIONS.

No it wouldn't. WCW was last seen running Nash vs Sid as a main event out of desperation.

 

WWF vs WCW would have been a great feud if it happened four years ago, but since WCW long established itself as something that used to be great but isn't anymore, nobody cared. To have that screwy-ass excuse of a WCW crew (without any of their icons) as strong heels would have been pretty goddamn pathetic.

 

I still maintain that while the ECW invasion night was very, very cool, it fucked the thing up as a whole. WCW vs WWF turned into WWF vs "The Alliance," since Vince was scared of Joey Styles or whoever the fuck owns the ECW name now leeching money off of him.

 

They should have just kept the two neck and neck for one more month, introduced Flair as the REAL man in charge to bring a well-known face to the roster, and then done the nWo angle with a "The boys are coming back home" theme.

 

Instead of keeping it going that extra month though, we got Flair for no real reason at all, and Vince's psychotic ramblings introducing the nWo.

[Guest HartFan86]

In case I didn't clarify, I meant that the real invasion was the original nWo angle in '96. It pretty much was WWF/WCW. The 2001 Invasion was kind of like WWF vs WCW Part II.

Oh, ok. I get what you mean. As if they already did the InVasion angle, but not really.

 

Would of been something if Bret went to WCW in 96, huh? Then it really would of been an invasion.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

In case I didn't clarify, I meant that the real invasion was the original nWo angle in '96. It pretty much was WWF/WCW.

Er, not really.

 

I asked this question in Old School once (although I can't seem to find the thread), and the response I got was that although they made references to the WWF at first, that was eventually dropped and it just became about the groups fighting each other, and the connections between NWO and WWF were eventually tossed away.

 

I think Giant was the first guy who had nothing to do with WWF joining, and later when you get guys like Sting and Bagwell and shit in there, yikes.

 

I will maintain that Bret had the entire fate of the industry in his hands when he chose to remain with Vince in 96. Had he left, there would have never been the giant Austin-Hart match at WM13 that gave Austin ME elevation.

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

The Invasion angle actually did good business with a 1.6 buyrate for the Invasion PPV (one of the highest non-WM ones ever) and some decent numbers for SummerSlam and a few others. Considering what Vince paid for it he probably made a nice profit and has plenty of semi-valuable assets left (tape collection, wrestlers, etc.).

[Guest Mole]

The Invasion angle actually did good business with a 1.6 buyrate for the Invasion PPV (one of the highest non-WM ones ever) and some decent numbers for SummerSlam and a few others. Considering what Vince paid for it he probably made a nice profit and has plenty of semi-valuable assets left (tape collection, wrestlers, etc.).

Yeah, the InVasion PPV did do well, and so did SummerSlam. However, for being something wrestling fans have been looking foward to for over 20 years, the InVasion came off as a BIG disapointment.

 

The InVasion angle made money for a short time, but it could of made TONS more if it was done properly. The InVasion was a short fix, and it ended 6 months later. If Vince did correctly, and not made WCW look like a bunch of chumps, WWE wouldn't be in the slump it is in now, IMHO.

[Guest godthedog]

lots of things doomed the invasion angle, most of which mad dog touched on: lack of big names, no willingness to actually put wcw over (in lieu of pushing austin), 90% of the "invaders" being wwf guys, the bad tnn deal, & the fact that by the time it died wcw was already a joke.

 

everybody seems to say it could've been the greatest angle ever, but this would be an angle that, no matter how you cut it, would have to rely on nostalgia from the nwo. "the federation is being invaded by ______? oh my god!" it's all been done before, ad nauseum. for a while, it would be a veteran smark's wet dream, but once reality kicked in, everybody would realize that it's still only a rehashing of an old angle. and great stories don't come from rehashing old angles, they come from doing things that haven't been done before.

[Guest HartFan86]

Invasion did the same as Mania 18.

 

If that doesn't tell you something right there about InVasion killing the WWE, I dunno what does

[Guest HartFan86]

I just checked on ProWrestlingHistory.com and it says InVasion did 1.43.

[Guest Loss4Words]

"and great stories don't come from rehashing old angles, they come from doing things that haven't been done before."

 

Everything in wrestling is recycled. EVERYTHING. If the inVasion didn't bring back the NWO booking, it would have been brought back at some point down the road. You have new characters and the presentation changes but there are only a few basic plot lines. The most overrated booking aspect is creativity. No one watches RAW and says "Wow, tonight's show was creative." They say there was a hot crowd or that the right guy won or that the match was too long, which are all comments reflective of good or bad booking. When you have bookers trying to get too creative, you run into Vince Russo. And in fact, this philosophy is part of the WWE's many problems, as evidenced by having a "creative" team instead of a "booking" team that deals with finishes and angles to build to the next PPV instead of writing backstage vignettes and creating catchphrases for Test and Stacy Keibler.

[Guest godthedog]

"and great stories don't come from rehashing old angles, they come from doing things that haven't been done before."

 

Everything in wrestling is recycled. EVERYTHING. If the inVasion didn't bring back the NWO booking, it would have been brought back at some point down the road. You have new characters and the presentation changes but there are only a few basic plot lines. The most overrated booking aspect is creativity. No one watches RAW and says "Wow, tonight's show was creative." They say there was a hot crowd or that the right guy won or that the match was too long, which are all comments reflective of good or bad booking. When you have bookers trying to get too creative, you run into Vince Russo. And in fact, this philosophy is part of the WWE's many problems, as evidenced by having a "creative" team instead of a "booking" team that deals with finishes and angles to build to the next PPV instead of writing backstage vignettes and creating catchphrases for Test and Stacy Keibler.

i disagree. there's a difference between trying good new things and trying bad new things. the fed isn't suffering from writing that's trying too hard to be creative, it's just suffering from bad writing. the non-"creative" stuff they're doing (like steiner's debut) is just boring, raw would still be a bad show even if they didn't have all the cutesty 'spin the wheel, make the deal'-'dog shit'-'necrophilia' angles, cause the writers have proven that, "edgy" or not, they can't write good television. period. vince still needs new ideas to save his company, but he needs GOOD new ideas.

[Guest Mole]

"and great stories don't come from rehashing old angles, they come from doing things that haven't been done before."

 

Everything in wrestling is recycled. EVERYTHING. If the inVasion didn't bring back the NWO booking, it would have been brought back at some point down the road. You have new characters and the presentation changes but there are only a few basic plot lines. The most overrated booking aspect is creativity. No one watches RAW and says "Wow, tonight's show was creative." They say there was a hot crowd or that the right guy won or that the match was too long, which are all comments reflective of good or bad booking. When you have bookers trying to get too creative, you run into Vince Russo. And in fact, this philosophy is part of the WWE's many problems, as evidenced by having a "creative" team instead of a "booking" team that deals with finishes and angles to build to the next PPV instead of writing backstage vignettes and creating catchphrases for Test and Stacy Keibler.

i disagree. there's a difference between trying good new things and trying bad new things. the fed isn't suffering from writing that's trying too hard to be creative, it's just suffering from bad writing. the non-"creative" stuff they're doing (like steiner's debut) is just boring, raw would still be a bad show even if they didn't have all the cutesty 'spin the wheel, make the deal'-'dog shit'-'necrophilia' angles, cause the writers have proven that, "edgy" or not, they can't write good television. period. vince still needs new ideas to save his company, but he needs GOOD new ideas.

I don't understand the arugment here. Both of you are right. The WWE is lacking because they need new ideas and better booking.

 

Anyway, people wouldn't of been saying "Oh no, they are re-doing the nWo gimmick of invading" You know why? Becaues there is only one way you can invade, you invade. Plus, when the gimmick was going on, I never once heard someone say that it was like the nWo. Not once, so I don't get what you are saying.

 

The reason the nWo invading never worked was because nWo wasn't a company, but more of a stable. They never fought each other, they only fought WCW. However, during the WCW invading of WWF, WCW fought each other. The company WCW was together, but they had mini feuds within the company. But, WCW invading did turn into a stable, the Alliance. So there is another reason why it didn't work. I probably contradicted myself there, but whatever.

 

Bottom line is that the InVasion angle didn't work out at all. There are soo many different ways that they could of made it work correctly, but Vince fucked it up. This was THE angle that could of kept the company going, but Vince fucked it up and we have Triple-Juice holding WCW's old belt just because he is fucking Vince's daughter.

[Guest Army Eye]

The Invasion angle actually did good business with a 1.6 buyrate for the Invasion PPV (one of the highest non-WM ones ever) and some decent numbers for SummerSlam and a few others.

Yes, but this shows the incredible potential that was there. 1.6 was an obscene number for that PPV. If they had actually delivered something good on that PPV, and starting booking correctly, and signed some better WCW wrestlers, who knows how well they would've done. Maybe an all-time best run of buyrates.

 

 

Just about everybody in this thread has their own 'wrong' things, and they're all right. They did so many things just completely, utterly wrong in the inVasion angle that it is staggering.

[Secret Agent 0]

What was I the only one who thought the Main Event finish for InVasion was awesome? Plus RVD/Jeff Hardy put out the goods.

[Guest NoCalMike]

I think one of the biggest steps in the downfall of the invasion angle was Vince dropping "WCW" and "ECW" and just calling it "Invasion" If they ran ads weekly for weeks and weeks of WCW and ECW invading RAW, then eventually it could have slowly brought fans back in, however, no one knew the "alliance" and probobaly just figured it was a WWE faction or they didn't care at all to tune in.

 

The sad fact is, the Invasion didn't work out soley because Vince never had plans for it to be long term or to bolster anything but the WWE name. It was painfully obvious once Austin turned, and just ridiculed alliance member after alliance member, when no MARK or SMARK in their right mind actually believed Austin was not WWE. Vince just wanted to bury the two biggest competitors of this era, plain and simple. There is no way Vince put out that crap of an invasion if he actually wanted it to be good.

[Guest bravesfan]

no willingness to actually put wcw over (in lieu of pushing austin)

 

Think about it though. Considering if they hadn't have pushed Austin, they would've focused their energies on pushing the non-wrestling talents in Stephanie and Shane, or maybe seized the moment to bury guys like DDP, Kanyon and the Thrillers even worse. I'm content that we got the pushes that we did see. It could've been a LOT worse.