Is God happy with you, or Angry?

[Guest Dopey]

WARNING!!! This topic might be too much for some people.

 

I've been debating with some people about a famous sermon by Jonathan Edwards. It was titled 'Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God'. It is a little too long to quote the whole thing, so I will give just some of the work here.

He starts with this verse "Their foot shall slide in due time." Deut. 32:35. He then goes on to talk about God's vengeance threatened on the wicked. ...a little later on he says, "Consider what is written in the book of John: "He that believeth not is condemned already" (John 3:18). Every unconverted man properly belongs to hell; that is his place; his nature is from there. "Ye are from beneath," said Christ (John8:23). And the sinner is bound to that place, for hell is the place assigned to him by justice, by God's Word, and by the sentence of His unchangeable law."

 

"The bow of God's wrath is bent; the arrow is made ready on the string, and justice bends the arrow at your heart, and strains the bow. It is nothing but the mere pleasure of God, and that of an angry God, without any promise or obligation at all, that keeps the arrow from being made drunk with your blood at every moment."

 

There is way more in this sermon but time constrains me. Is this something that has been preached in your church lately? Or have you ever heard anything like this before. This sermon was first preached on July 8, 1741.

 

I'd like your thoughts on this. I may be able to quote some more of this latter.

[Guest SP-1]

The thing is this, Dopey, if Edwards was a puritan preacher, those people were obsessed with Hell. Seriously. It doesn't take much research to figure it out.

 

The thing to think about when it comes to salvation is that with that particular subject, you have to treat it as you would a particular passage in the Bible. Look at it in context. if I quote a line out of 1 Corinthians 12, it won't make much sense without the surrounding verses to tell you that Paul is talking about the spiritual gifts and building up the church with them and using them in love.

 

With salvation, with Christ, you kind of have to look at the Bible as a whole, and take from it all over the place to put things into perspective. I mean, the bottom line is simple enough, but to grasp the cosmic, beautiful meaning of it, it's good to take a look at the whole body of work that is God's Word.

 

In My Opinion, anyways. There is always room for error, but that's how I see it.

[Guest J*ingus]

I've read SITHOAAG, and it's fear-mongering sinsploitational stuff like most Purtian writings. I mean, these guys were so nuts that they dressed their women up damn near to Taliban standards, and didn't allow boys and girls to even sit next to each other. Hell, they even tried a form of communism at one point (and failed miserably). I feel pretty confident in ignoring anything they say.

[Guest IDrinkRatsMilk]

I'm very familiar with the sermon, my dad made me read it and do reports and presentations on it and junk. I feel comfortable dismissing it as typical Puritan ranting. Seems to me one of the underlying motives in that line of thought would be pride, that is, the more rabid the condemnation of the "unconverted", the better and more pure you look.

[Guest Dopey]

I've read SITHOAAG, and it's fear-mongering sinsploitational stuff like most Purtian writings. I mean, these guys were so nuts that they dressed their women up damn near to Taliban standards, and didn't allow boys and girls to even sit next to each other. Hell, they even tried a form of communism at one point (and failed miserably). I feel pretty confident in ignoring anything they say.

For the sake of argument, what if he was right? I might not agree with all of what he said, however, he makes quite a good case for repentance!!!

 

"And now, you have an extraordinary opportunity, a day wherein Christ has thrown the door of mercy wide open, and stands calling and crying with a loud voice to poor sinners; a day wherein many are flocking to Him, and pressing into the kingdom of God."

 

Jingus, I actually liked it. I think it would do good for the youth of america to hear a little of this. It sure as heck beats listening to Jerry Springer...ect.

[Guest godthedog]

i had to read this in high school as well. i found an even more scary & vivid example in a priest's rant in 'a portrait of the artist as a young man'. for a short film i did last night, i played a character who responded to this with something like:

 

"okay, this is extortion. if there is a god, he creates this eternal damnation and he uses it to threaten his kids with. the idea of an all-loving god who would do that to me is bullshit, it's so self-defeating. fuck that whole theory, and fuck the institution for trying to scare me into believing there's an all-loving god who would do that to me."

 

of course...i was being filmed doing this rant in the middle of a waffle house, & the guy in the booth next to me was pretty offended by this, and he actually came over to the table saying "hey, man, that's my father you're talking about." we had to stop the take and tell him it was just a movie. it was a good take too, and he fucked it up. that pissed me off.

[Guest Dopey]

I'm very familiar with the sermon, my dad made me read it and do reports and presentations on it and junk. I feel comfortable dismissing it as typical Puritan ranting. Seems to me one of the underlying motives in that line of thought would be pride, that is, the more rabid the condemnation of the "unconverted", the better and more pure you look.

Hey, Rat's milk, was your dad a preacher? Cause most kids I know never even go to church, let alone read anything by J. Edwards.

[Guest IDrinkRatsMilk]

My dad wasn't an ordained minister, but he was deeply into evangelism. I suppose you could call him a street preacher, but he's not like the insane sterotype.

[Guest Dopey]

"okay, this is extortion. if there is a god, he creates this eternal damnation and he uses it to threaten his kids with. the idea of an all-loving god who would do that to me is bullshit, it's so self-defeating. fuck that whole theory, and fuck the institution for trying to scare me into believing there's an all-loving god who would do that to me."

Yo, dog, the all-loving God thing is whack. God is Love, yes. But He is also absolutly just, righteous, and Holy!!! And as J. Edwards points out, if you are breaking His laws and being a rebel in His kingdom, He has to by His very nature, be angry with you.

God does not love everybody. That is a misgiving of the arminius camp. Just read Romans chapter 9 and it will be clear. There are people that God hates. There are a lot of things God hates. That does'nt mean He hates everyone and everything, however, He has the right to be angry and hate anything that is evil or displeases Him.

Overall, God is a whole lot more merciful, and gracious than we will ever know. However, it is not a good thing to make Him mad.

[Guest Ravenbomb]

when I heard Johnathan Edwards, I was thinking John Edwards from that psychic TV show Crossing Over.

[Guest SP-1]

I have to disagree with you there, Dopey.

 

God does love everyone. It's a static fact about His nature that is inescapable. He does not love sin, but he undoubtedly loves the sinner. Sin itself is the barrier between man and God, not the man himself.

 

Even we are commanded to love each other. Love the sinner but hate the sin.

 

I think it depends on your definition of love. Is it the biblical definition that allows for accountability, or have you bought into the popular definition that love is all about hitting a reset button on your relationship with someone?

 

 

EDIT: Ravenbomb: Best. Sig. Ever.

[Guest goodhelmet]

in the words of the immortal curtis mayfield.... don't worry, if there's a hell below, we're all gonna go!

[Guest NoCalMike]

One thing I always wondered was. Does God have the power to change his mind about things? I mean, if we all assume the bible is the word of god, and everything in it happened and everything said about Armageddon is going to happen because the bible says, then could we also assume that God could be sitting up in heaven thinking, "gee, I am not so sure about this or that, I think I will change this" I mean what if everyone woke up one day, opened up the bible and some parts of armageddon was COMPLETELY different. Wouldn't that be one hell of a mind trip? Or moreso, even if God didn't change around the bible, just the way he wanted to do things. I am not so sure this is such a "comedic" thing. I mean, who are we as "mankind" to say we know what God will always want this or that?

[Guest SP-1]

We don't know what God is always going to do. His basic plan for creation doesn't change, though.

 

The thing about God is that, no, His mind doesn't change. It's part of His character. Man has the flesh, our at times sinful emotions, and other factors that make us unsure, finnicky creatures. We change our minds often, and usually because we don't have access to the larger picture or what's down the line. God has it laid out already. He looks down at the timeline, the maze, from above and has that knowledge to have made His decisions on. His perception allows Him to make concrete, unchanging decisions that our in-the-moment existence doesn't allow us.

 

Part of faith is trusting in that perception that God knows what He is doing, long term.

[Guest SP-1]

To amend a point: God can change His mind, I'm sure. He's a being of intelligence, concience, and reasoning, so of course He can. But He doesn't need to once He has settled on a decision because He knows and sees the outcomes, and therefore His decisions don't need adjustments to fit a new variable.

[Guest El Satanico]

when I heard Johnathan Edwards, I was thinking John Edwards from that psychic TV show Crossing Over.

He's the biggest douche in the universe.

 

 

 

Oh yeah there was a topic here...

 

God hates us all...we ruined his masterpiece yadda yadda yadda blah blah blah

[Guest Dopey]

I have to disagree with you there, Dopey.

God does love everyone

I hear what you're saying Spider, and I'm not trying to make God into a big fat hate monger. However, I like to preach the whole counsel of God. And the Word seems pretty clear that God does hate some folk and that His WRATH abides on the wicked.

 

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John 3:36 Wrath.

 

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them." Romans 1:18-19 Wrath.

 

"Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy." Romans 9:13-16

 

If you are not chosen from the foundation of the world, and you do not obey Jesus Messiah, then the wrath of God abides on you. The word 'hate' in Rom. 9:13 is miseo from the primary root word 'misos' (hatred) to detest. YES God hated Esau.

 

God LOVES those whom He chose from the foundation of the earth to recieve salvation. He will seek all those whom He has chosen out, and they will be saved. I'm sorry, but not everyone will be saved. That is an unbiblical doctrine of universalism. However, all those He has predestined unto salvation shall recieve His MERCY!!! MERCY!!!---the withholding of punishment rightly due.'

 

All those who are saved are only saved by His mercy and grace!!! We all deserve eternal damnation!!! "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

 

HIS election, mercy, and salvation are all HIS!!! It's all HIS work. HE gives to whomever HE wants. HIS love and mercy all comes from HIM. Jesus' very name means 'I AM SALVATION'. Therefore HE has the power and right to give it to whomever HE pleases.

 

"Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48

 

Spider, I'm not trying to harsh your gig, but God does not love everybody. And that does not make Him bad or unrighteous. He does not owe love to unrighteous, law-breaking, sons of the devil (see John chapter 8:39-47), rebels. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL! And either HE is your God and Father, or the devil is (John 8, Ephesians 2). We preach the word and sow the seeds and HE causes the increase.

 

It's all about HIS will and election.

[Guest SP-1]

I never said it wasn't about God's will and election. My point was that at a base level, God loves each and every person on this planet. It's the SIN itself that brings the reaction of wrath and judgement. You have to learn to seperate the two, or else you'll wind up having a jaded view of love and accountability.

 

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John 3:36 Wrath.

 

Yes, it clearly says that the wrath of God abides in the person. Why? Because they did not obey the Son. The action of sin brings about the wrath. Not the person itself.

 

Go back and post what Esau did. God didn't just hate him for no reason. There was a reason, a sin that covered Esau that he did not repent of, did not have remorse over, and did not come to God with. The sin brought the hatred, but Esau himself had access to God's love if he would have taken it.

 

As for election to salvation. Yes, God has elected whom he will have, but that does not mean he does not love everyone. What it comes down to is this: If I have a red sweater that I wish to give as a gift, but I know that you will not believe the sweater is red or that it is real, I won't give you the sweater. Instead, I will give the sweater to someone that will take it and love it and be thankful for it and use it. I elected the person that will choose to take it to give it to. But I would still love you just the same.

 

Sin seperates us from God. We can choose sin and therefore choose to keep ourselves from God, and He knows who is going to do what. That's what election equals out to. But we don't know who is going to accept and who will not so we are called to tell everyone the gospel and let God do the work of His own Grace and Mercy.

 

Context. Look at your verses, go back and forth and research their content, especially with cases like Esau, and remember that sin is what seperated us from God, and that He loves us and hates the sin. To preach anything else damages the perception of God's true character, and presents a jaded view of a loving Father. And ultimately, anything concerning a hating God helps the enemy build a case against Christ to whisper in someone's ear. Be weary of the points you jump out there to make, friend.

 

Remember, we are ambassadors.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

I've never been to church a single time in my life, but from what I've read, I'm way more fond of fire and brimstone as dogma rather than "god is love." It's just more convincing.

[Guest SP-1]

You should really cover more Christian doctrine. Basing an opinion on arguments here that cover a fraction of God's character that has reactions and actions itself doesn't tell you much at all.

 

There's much more to God than love. And the definition of love itself for a true Christian is likely a bit different than how it is percieved in popular culture today.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Well, we're also looking at religious text with VERY different motivations. You, for an outlook on life and way to live it (I assume), and me, just to be able to argue about it more effectively, and just because I find religion interesting. Believe me, I base my beliefs on a whole lot more than just what's seen on the board. I find the bits about god's wrath, and armageddon, and all that gives god more...I don't know how to word this right.. More emotion. It's not in human nature to forgive everyone that wrongs us. THAT ideal is something we've thought up, rather than feel on a visceral level naturally. God exacting vengeance on his enemies appeals to the part of man that says without surcease "Smite thy foe."

[Guest SP-1]

Definitely. I enjoy that warrior aspect of God alot myself. It's part of the reason why I stress a definition of love that makes room for accountability. It's disheartening to see so many Christian men stripped of any kind of courage or fighting spirit because our God-given masculinity is stripped away by a nearly completely feminine, nurture based concept of love. Don't get me wrong, that concept of love is very valid and is an integral part of culture.

 

But for the Christian male, we are called to fight and go to arms against our enemies. We are called to love with courage, especially amongst our own male community. It is a love of respect, and of defending our families and ourselves spiritually. At times that translates to taking a stand physically and holding your grounds on all different fronts.

 

A man stripped of his will to push forward, to battle, is not serving God as fully as he can. In no way, shape, or form. The warrior, the masculine part of God, is how we are made in His image, I believe. Unfortunately so many men are stripped of that.

[Guest Dopey]

Yes, it clearly says that the wrath of God abides in the person. Why? Because they did not obey the Son. The action of sin brings about the wrath. Not the person itself.

 

Go back and post what Esau did. God didn't just hate him for no reason. There was a reason, a sin that covered Esau that he did not repent of, did not have remorse over, and did not come to God with. The sin brought the hatred, but Esau himself had access to God's love if he would have taken it.

 

Instead, I will give the sweater to someone that will take it and love it and be thankful for it and use it. I elected the person that will choose to take it to give it to

 

Sin seperates us from God. We can choose sin and therefore choose to keep ourselves from God, and He knows who is going to do what. That's what election equals out to. But we don't know who is going to accept and who will not so we are called to tell everyone the gospel and let God do the work of His own Grace and Mercy.

 

Context. Look at your verses, go back and forth and research their content, especially with cases like Esau, and remember that sin is what seperated us from God, and that He loves us and hates the sin. To preach anything else damages the perception of God's true character, and presents a jaded view of a loving Father. And ultimately, anything concerning a hating God helps the enemy build a case against Christ to whisper in someone's ear. Be weary of the points you jump out there to make, friend.

 

Remember, we are ambassadors.

Spider, I am glad to have a dialogue with you about free will. Because that is where we are disagreeing. Let me say at the start of this dialogue that I harbor no malice or ill-will toward you. For you are a brother in Christ and I do love you in the love of Christ. I also know that you do not hold malice toward me personally, and that your love in Christ is shinning toward me and for that I Praise God!!!

 

With that said, I now move on toward the great task of bringing the Reformed position of the WILL. This is no easy task, seeing that greater minds than ours have went around and around with this and still have disagreed.

 

The absolute FOCAL POINT here is 'the Will'. Do you have the freedom of your will as a human being outside of Christ Jesus (a person male/or female who is not born again by the Spirit of God.) to choose to be saved or not??? Ahhh, there's the rub!

 

I will bring Martin Luther, St. Augustine, John Calvin and the boys and you can bring Jacob Hermann aka. Jacobus Arminius and his crew and we will have an awesome christian tag-team match!!!

 

Are you ready? Are you ready? Then let's get it on!!!

 

Ok, since Dopey has to get to work the opening sequence will be brief.

YOU DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL TO CHOOSE SALVATION!!!

 

The crowd stands to its feet in Stuned silence!

[Guest SP-1]

LOL. Dopey, I'm a Presbyterian in the PCA, getting ready to attend a Reformed college to study pastoral ministry.

 

We don't disagree on Reformed Theology. I'm reading RC Sproul right now, am at least familiar with Calvanism and the 5 points (though far from well versed at the moment), and the Westminster Confession of Faith.

 

It's not our overall theology we aren't quite meeting eye to eye on. I think it might have more to do with how God's application of His character in our lives.

[Guest J*ingus]

The idea of predestination, in which people are chosen to be saved or damned long before they're even born, infuriates me, and I'm fairly outraged that anyone could happily espouse this theory as a good and righteous thing. You're an idiot, Dopey. I better shut up now, or I'm gonna say some things that I can't take back.

[Guest IDrinkRatsMilk]

The whole God is love vs. God is wrath point can be demonstrated somewhat as Old Testament vs. New Testament. Between the two, God's nature changes a lot. There's a reason for that, and it isn't a spiritual one. Sparing the details (cause it would take a long time to type out my opinion on the matter), it's because of Roman culture and the apostle Paul. Mostly Paul.

And, if you take the doctrine of predestination, and couple it with the doctrine of eternal security of salvation, then Christianity becomes a religion where you don't have to do anything at all. That's my kind of religion.

[Guest SP-1]

I think it depends on how you are seeing predestination, Jingy. Some people see it as we have zero say in what's going on. Some people see it merely as in my example above, where God knows who is going to choose to accept the gift of salvation, and when, and His plans are laid out accordingly. It's the latter perception that I find the most agreeable, and the most in-line with God being a relational, yet Sovereign being.

 

EDIT: No, "Jingy" was not a typo, nor is it meant to be condescending. I suppose it's just a shorthand to denote that I feel a sense of familiarity and respect with him. But i know it might be construed as otherwise so I wish to clear it up.

[Guest J*ingus]

And, if you take the doctrine of predestination, and couple it with the doctrine of eternal security of salvation, then Christianity becomes a religion where you don't have to do anything at all.

That's part of my (huge) problem with the whole concept. If those who are to be saved are chosen before they're born, then what's the point of following God's commandments at all?

 

if you are breaking His laws and being a rebel in His kingdom, He has to by His very nature, be angry with you.

 

Overall, God is a whole lot more merciful, and gracious than we will ever know. However, it is not a good thing to make Him mad.

 

How can you reconcile those statements with the idea of a God who pre-damns people to eternity in flame, before they can possibly break His laws or make Him mad?!

[Guest J*ingus]

Some people see it merely as in my example above, where God knows who is going to choose to accept the gift of salvation, and when, and His plans are laid out accordingly.

But I still have problems with that interpretation, too. Okay, God is all-knowing, so he knows who's going to be saved and who's going down to the boiler room, right? So follow my logic train here:

 

1. God, when planning the universe, decides to eventually create Person A.

2. God, being omniscient, knows Person A will be a sinner and will go to hell.

3. God creates Person A, knowing full well that they're not a good apple.

4. Person A sins, and God doesn't step in or change His mind.

5. God damns Person A to an eternity in fire.

 

What choice did Person A have, really?

[Guest So what? I liked bubble boy]

1. God, when planning the universe, decides to eventually create Person A.

2. God, being omniscient, knows Person A will be a sinner and will go to hell.

3. God creates Person A, knowing full well that they're not a good apple.

4. Person A sins, and God doesn't step in or change His mind.

5. God damns Person A to an eternity in fire.

 

What choice did Person A have, really?

No choice, sounds good to me.