Is God happy with you, or Angry?

[Guest SP-1]

No choice, sounds good to me.

Dude. What?

 

 

 

Jingus, I'll be honest and tell you that at this precise moment I am not prepared to break that down and see if I can provide some doctrinal, biblical answers. But, I will research it and come back to the thread after New Year's and all and pick it back up. But I'm not gonna sit here and concoct something just to keep it going, which I'm sure that you'll appreciate.

[Guest So what? I liked bubble boy]

No choice, sounds good to me.

Dude. What?

 

 

 

Jingus, I'll be honest and tell you that at this precise moment I am not prepared to break that down and see if I can provide some doctrinal, biblical answers. But, I will research it and come back to the thread after New Year's and all and pick it back up. But I'm not gonna sit here and concoct something just to keep it going, which I'm sure that you'll appreciate.

No choice, that is what we have, whatever God wants from me, is good for me. By the way Esau had no choice, God hated him before he was born, imagine that.

[Guest SP-1]

Dude, we have choice. God knows what we will do, but we still have the ability to choose not to do what He wants. It results in things getting pretty jaded because you aren't where you are supposed to be, but you do have the choice.

[Guest So what? I liked bubble boy]

Dude, we have choice.  God knows what we will do, but we still have the ability to choose not to do what He wants.  It results in things getting pretty jaded because you aren't where you are supposed to be, but you do have the choice.

From what I read this isn't true. I don't believe that we have the choice of "being saved" or not.

[Guest SP-1]

Sources?

[Guest IDrinkRatsMilk]

You know, all we could ever possibly know about the nature of God would be what he wants us to know. We can't really sit here and say God is bound to his word, because the only basis for that is that's what God said. Life could be no more than a Depeche Mode song, and when we die, he could just laugh and send everyone to hell.

I'm just saying this to show that there can be no absolute truth when it comes to God. It's all faith, and blind faith at that. And when all of your decisions are based on blind faith, you aren't a follower of God, you're a follower of yourself. I may not be expressing this as clearly as I'd like, but that right there is enough to convince me not to believe in God as described in the Bible.

[Guest So what? I liked bubble boy]

Sources?

Bible, The New King James Verison if you may.

[Guest So what? I liked bubble boy]

You know, all we could ever possibly know about the nature of God would be what he wants us to know. We can't really sit here and say God is bound to his word, because the only basis for that is that's what God said. Life could be no more than a Depeche Mode song, and when we die, he could just laugh and send everyone to hell.

I'm just saying this to show that there can be no absolute truth when it comes to God. It's all faith, and blind faith at that. And when all of your decisions are based on blind faith, you aren't a follower of God, you're a follower of yourself. I may not be expressing this as clearly as I'd like, but that right there is enough to convince me not to believe in God as described in the Bible.

If you have to be convinced there is a God, that isn't right. Sure, if I were God, I would have to have people convinced that I exisit. That makes since. You don't believe in God because He has not opened your eyes.

[Guest Ram]

And what if he "never opens our eyes".

 

Then what? Fuck you, go to hell?

[Guest IDrinkRatsMilk]

I didn't say I don't believe in God at all, just not God as described in the Bible. I'm more agnostic than atheist.

[Guest So what? I liked bubble boy]

And what if he "never opens our eyes".

 

Then what? Fuck you, go to hell?

That is what will happen if he doesn't.

[Guest Dopey]

The idea of predestination, in which people are chosen to be saved or damned long before they're even born, infuriates me, and I'm fairly outraged that anyone could happily espouse this theory as a good and righteous thing. You're an idiot, Dopey. I better shut up now, or I'm gonna say some things that I can't take back.

Jingus, hey bro, I'm about to post something that might blow everyones mind!!! But here goes.

 

Could it be that right now GOD the Father is draging you to Him? Could it be that at this moment in time, that you, Rat's milk, Agent of Oblivion...are actually already saved, and yet just caught in some particular sin that is keeping you from serving your Father the way you should be?

 

Hear me out. The very fact that you are following this thread so closely tells me one of three things.

1. You are already saved, but you're in a backsliden state and need to come back to our Dad and fall into His very loving arms and let Him wash you and comfort you. Because He will keep seeking you out, for you are the 1 sheep out of the 99 who has strayed.

 

2. You have been chosen from the foundation of the world, and through this post and many other ways unknown to me, God is going to save you and that is an awsome thing.

 

3. You are not saved and just feel like argueing.

 

May I suggest that the first two is where you probably are. I believe that people like Rat's Milk, are going to be saved, not because of himself, but because of a covenantial love that God has. And HE has shown love to Rat's earthly dad, therefore I believe that Rat's Milk, will probably be standing next to his earthly dad and me when we walk into New Jerusalem with all joy and peace. Me and Spider poet have already publicly declared our faith in Messiah Jesus. We will be there!!! Yea!!!!!!!!

 

I believe that God is working on you Jingus!!! And there is nothing you can do about it. He has power and loving ways that you cannot fight against!!!

It may be my goofy posts, it may be a little child who runs up to you some day and hugs your leg and tells you that she loves you, it may be a quite sunset that sends chills down your spine, it may be you seeing a picture of Jesus on a cross and it starts to melt your heart....

 

God has ordained me to preach the gospel, and that is what I shall do. Whether it is the kinder and gentler words of Spider Poet, or the doctrinal straight forward posts of myself, I don't care, God is alive and using this board to reach His people!!! He will shed His love on us!!! Yea!!!

 

Beware brothers, He's gonna getcha!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest Danny Dubya v 2.0]

...sorry if this is a bit off of the current part of the debate, but I've thought of something for a long time.

 

If you are fixated on the thought of hell or going to it, you may just be making yourself more vulnerable to counterproductive behavior than you were before.

 

Personally... I think it's best to not even think about hell or other such things. Nothing good ever really comes out of it. And this is probably just me, but I am a christian that does not believe in a devil....... the "demons" are ourselves.

 

Ignore people that speak of punishment and aim your thoughts at the light, I say. The principle of looking at the glass half full instead of half empty should apply to how we look at the consequences of our actions as well.

[Guest SP-1]

It's probably going to be a few days before I attempt to pick this thread back up.

 

 

I just . . . don't have it in me right now to go against my brothers and sisters in Christ and hold down other discussions as well. I'm too weighed down with other BS right now so I'm taking a break from this for a few days. Just can't do it at the moment.

[Guest DrTom]

Could it be that right now GOD the Father is draging you to Him?

Since I'm as atheistic as any of the other chaps you mentioned, I'm going to jump in and field this one.

 

No, I don't think that's happening at all. I was Catholic once, went to Catholic school for a dozen years, and probably still know more about Catholicism, dogma, and doctrine than a lot of people who stayed with the faith. I tossed it all aside years ago, and I'm much happier now.

 

At the risk of being thought difficult, I think I AM saved: saved from reading a 2000-year old book of derivative mythology and trying to relate it to my life today; saved from wasting my time praying for no good reason or gain; saved from not doing the things I want to do because a book or a man with a funny collar said so; and saved from turning into a drone who knows only one way of thinking.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

I've got one up on ya Tom. No parochial school here. Public sin, all the way.

 

Color me Atheistic-er.

 

This bit about free will is something I'm finding really interesting. Personally, I think the universe is gradually leading to chaos, but that's just me.

[Guest Respect The 'Taker]

To amend a point: God can change His mind, I'm sure. He's a being of intelligence, concience, and reasoning, so of course He can. But He doesn't need to once He has settled on a decision because He knows and sees the outcomes, and therefore His decisions don't need adjustments to fit a new variable.

You speak as though you've recent sat down and had lunch with the entity itself.

 

Usually i refrain from involving myself within religous matters due to the personal rights of belief that people are very much entitled to, but unless you state that it is, in fact, your opinion, then your coming across as though you know what God is.

 

And in your human state, i believe that is quite impossible.

 

UYI

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Holy shit...a whole post..No Axl...no Metallica..NO GNR?

 

Fuck. it's the Apocalypse.

[Guest Respect The 'Taker]

Holy shit...a whole post..No Axl...no Metallica..NO GNR?

 

Fuck. it's the Apocalypse.

LOL, ah yes, my trusty Illusion-ite Agent...

 

You arn't by any chance Australian or something are you? Because right now, it's graveyard shift over in the states and the boards are always dead.

 

YEP...got the whole place to myself...

 

UYI - Axl, Metallica, GNR, James Hetfield, GNR, Axl, Axl and not forgetting Axl.

[Guest SP-1]

You speak as though you've recent sat down and had lunch with the entity itself.

 

Usually i refrain from involving myself within religous matters due to the personal rights of belief that people are very much entitled to, but unless you state that it is, in fact, your opinion, then your coming across as though you know what God is.

 

And in your human state, i believe that is quite impossible.

 

UYI

Part of being a Christian is being in a personal relationship with God. Not just reading your Bible and making assumptions, but sitting down and spending time with God himself in prayer. It's the relationship of a son to a father, and very personal for the both of you.

 

And it isn't just me. For some reason Christians don't talk about that side of it very much, but that's essentially what Christianity is at it's core. The Bible can't save you. The rules can't save you. It's just a book as far as it's overall power, and doctrine is merely a set of guidelines in itself. It's a personal, real relationship with Jesus Christ, with God. So yes, I feel pretty comfortable with making statements about the character of God because of that relationship, because I have an open, running, back and forth dialogue with Him, both through His natural revelations in the Word, in life, and through supernatural revelation and encounters with Him. It's simply part of being a Christian, much moreso than any of the rules or commandments. He's my Father, my King, my Counsel. Of course I know Him personally.

 

SP

[Guest Respect The 'Taker]

You speak as though you've recent sat down and had lunch with the entity itself.

 

Usually i refrain from involving myself within religous matters due to the personal rights of belief that people are very much entitled to, but unless you state that it is, in fact, your opinion, then your coming across as though you know what God is.

 

And in your human state, i believe that is quite impossible.

 

UYI

Part of being a Christian is being in a personal relationship with God. Not just reading your Bible and making assumptions, but sitting down and spending time with God himself in prayer. It's the relationship of a son to a father, and very personal for the both of you.

 

And it isn't just me. For some reason Christians don't talk about that side of it very much, but that's essentially what Christianity is at it's core. The Bible can't save you. The rules can't save you. It's just a book as far as it's overall power, and doctrine is merely a set of guidelines in itself. It's a personal, real relationship with Jesus Christ, with God. So yes, I feel pretty comfortable with making statements about the character of God because of that relationship, because I have an open, running, back and forth dialogue with Him, both through His natural revelations in the Word, in life, and through supernatural revelation and encounters with Him. It's simply part of being a Christian, much moreso than any of the rules or commandments. He's my Father, my King, my Counsel. Of course I know Him personally.

 

SP

Spoken (ahh...or written) like a true, honest and sincere Christian. I respect your opinions and beliefs to no end, let me assure you of that.

 

I used to be much like you, followed the religion and belief of God very closely. However, growing up around the Christian church taught me that the only component that is at its core, is evil. The Church contridicts itself in many, many ways, so many that i really cannot sit here and transcribe them all here.

 

Just a few years ago i completely broke away from Christianity and just began my own religion - A religion where the only member is me, i don't ask for money, i dont threaten myself with idle threats of eternal hellfire...i have a personal, one on one relationship with God...and that's it. No church, no bullshit, no nothing but myself and my God.

 

Forgive me if you not the avid Church-goer i may have made you out to be with my words, however im sure you understand where i am coming from as you do seem very open minded.

 

UYI

[Guest SP-1]

I understand why people tend to find corruption in the church. With preachers that cheat on their wives, some Catholic priests coming forward, the general hypocrisy that finds itself in the church so often. It's understandable.

 

I enjoy the church I attend, it's very light and free. Heck, one of our elders has been known to come on Sunday Morning in a flower shirt, shorts, and sandals. We come together to worship and grow in our relationship with God. I was very fortunate to have found myself in a church like I presently attend. It's disheartening that so many individual churches fall to such hypocrisy and dishonesty. I think money is the biggest idol that churches unwittingly fall prey to, or their leaders are not so strong in their relationship as they would think.

 

Ultimately, I'm a Christian before I'm ever a Presbyterian. If I feel the Lord is urging me away from a particular facet of our doctrine, then I ask questions about it, pray about it, and if the urging continues then I voice my concerns and step back from that particular area of things. It's a rarity because, as I said, my particular church isn't even very much like other PCA churches, strange little upstart institution that we are.

 

But today's Christian generation, it seems, has lost it's strength, which is a shame. I'm hoping that the other young men and women that are headed into the ministry like myself find their courage and their strength to avoid the unfortunate mistakes that have damaged our credibility within the last few decades. My supernatural background and experience with spiritual warfare has prepared me for it, I think, though I don't know about others.

 

But yes. Some Christians have stepped out there and done some stupid things. Things that have not built the church up at all, things that have damaged us in perception. So people's agitation and suspicion of the church as a whole is understandable. It's my hope that it can be overcome by people of integrity, character, and courage in the upcoming years.

 

SP

[Guest Respect The 'Taker]

But yes. Some Christians have stepped out there and done some stupid things. Things that have not built the church up at all, things that have damaged us in perception. So people's agitation and suspicion of the church as a whole is understandable. It's my hope that it can be overcome by people of integrity, character, and courage in the upcoming years.

 

SP

It is also greatly unfortunate how one or two really bad incidents can corrupt an image for eternity...

 

However, i dont want to go into that any further in fear of being hypocritical

[Guest SP-1]

Yeah. But, nothing's perfect, especially once man starts getting involved. I think God will have us where he wants us, and people will percieve it how they will. I'll live giving it 100% and let God work with that however He wants to.

[Guest Dopey]

Could it be that right now GOD the Father is draging you to Him?

Since I'm as atheistic as any of the other chaps you mentioned, I'm going to jump in and field this one.

 

No, I don't think that's happening at all. I was Catholic once, went to Catholic school for a dozen years, and probably still know more about Catholicism, dogma, and doctrine than a lot of people who stayed with the faith. I tossed it all aside years ago, and I'm much happier now.

 

At the risk of being thought difficult, I think I AM saved: saved from reading a 2000-year old book of derivative mythology

Dr. Tom, it's nice of you to join us. Let me start off by saying; ok, you are the smartest guy on this board. Fine. Phd, MD, whatever your educational pedigree is, I'm TAPING OUT!!! I admit you are smarter than me.

With that said, I would like to point out to you good doctor that in your post you rattled off how you were a CATHOLIC for a long time and you know their doctrines pretty well. Here is where I have a problem with that. Saying you are a Catholic, or a Baptist, or a Whatever, means absolutly NOTHING as far a JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH is concerned. 0. Nadda. Nix. Empty. Void.

 

"Jesus answered and said to him, "MOST ASSUREDLY, I SAY TO YOU, UNLESS ONE IS BORN AGAIN HE CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD." Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"

Jesus answered, "MOST ASSUREDLY, I SAY TO YOU, UNLESS ONE IS BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT, HE CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD. THAT WHICH IS BORN OF THE FLESH IS FLESH, AND THAT WHICH IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT IS SPIRIT. DO NOT MARVEL THAT I SAID TO YOU, 'YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN'." John 3:3-7

"He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:11-13

 

Dr. Tom, I do not blame you for your non-belief. If your spirit is DEAD inside you, then you cannot be a Christian. You may have thought you were a Christian, you may have tried to act like a Christian, but unless your spirit was 'Made alive' and you were 'Born again', you are not a Christian.

 

And this powerful act of SALVATION can only be performed by GOD!!! It cannot be given to you by the Pope, or anybody in the Roman Catholic church.

 

Remeber Dr. Tom, unless you were chosen from the foundation of the world to recieve the gift of salvation, you will never be saved. And with that you can never truly believe and the Word of God will seem void to you. So in your mind you may be convinced that the GOD of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is not using this post right now, however:

"SO SHALL MY WORD BE THAT GOES FORTH FROM MY MOUTH;

IT SHALL NOT RETURN TO ME VOID,

BUT IT SHALL ACCOMPLISH WHAT I PLEASE,

AND IT SHALL PROSPER IN THE THING FOR WHICH I SENT IT."

Isaiah 55:11

 

I am not writing this post in malice or anger. I have nothing but respect for your intellignce and person Dr. Tom, however, I must tell you the truth. And the TRUTH is that no one, the Pope, Billy Graham, De-von Dudly; no one except GOD--FATHER, SON, HOLY SPIRIT, is going to get you into heaven.

[Guest IDrinkRatsMilk]

Ok, let me get something straight here. With all this talk of God opening your eyes and the church having no meaning as far as salvation goes, how is that you know you are saved? Just a feeling you get? Is it like being in love, where you "just know"?

I do have a point I want to make, but I'd like to get where you guys are coming from on this before I say it.

[Guest SP-1]

Dopey, I have to ask you a question.

 

Do you believe that when a person is saved, they automatically are able to do a complete 180 and repent of everything immediately?

[Guest Dopey]

This bit about free will is something I'm finding really interesting.

Agent of Oblivion, <---(I love that name) this subject is extremly deep. There are two works on the subject that I believe are the best; one is 'The Bondage Of The Will' by Martin Luther, and 'Willing To Believe' by Dr. R.C. Sproul.

 

"So it is not irreligious, idle, or superfluous, but in the highest degree wholesome and necessary, for a Christian to know whether or not his will has anything to do in matters pertaining to salvation." 'Bondage Of The Will' Martin Luther, 1525.

 

As you can see this subject has been grappled with for a long time. For the sake of brevity I will quote the Word of God, and let you ponder on this for a while.

 

..."BLESSED BE THE GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, WHO HAS BLESSED US WITH EVERY SPIRITUAL BLESSING IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST, JUST AS HE CHOSE US IN HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, THAT WE SHOULD BE HOLY AND WITHOUT BLAME BEFORE HIM IN LOVE, HAVING PREDESTINED US TO ADOPTION AS SONS BY JESUS CHRIST TO HIMSELF, ACCORDING TO THE GOOD PLEASURE OF HIS WILL...

..."IN HIM ALSO WE HAVE OBTAINED AN INHERITANCE, BEING PREDESTINED ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE OF HIM WHO WORKS ALL THINGS ACCORDING TO THE COUNSEL OF HIS WILL,... Ephesians 1

 

..."FOR BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED THROUGH FAITH, AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES; IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD, NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST." Eph. 2:8

 

Agent, let's start here. There will be more to follow.

[Guest J*ingus]

1. God, when planning the universe, decides to eventually create Person A.

2. God, being omniscient, knows Person A will be a sinner and will go to hell.  

3. God creates Person A, knowing full well that they're not a good apple.  

4. Person A sins, and God doesn't step in or change His mind.  

5. God damns Person A to an eternity in fire.  

 

What choice did Person A have, really?

No choice, sounds good to me.

Bubble Boy, if you ever do something as offensive, reprehensible, and all-out evil as happily accept the idea of countless billions of people burning for all eternity and not even having a choice in the matter as a good thing, and accomplish all that with a fucking SMILEY FACE, consider yourself fucking banned from this board. Go away, you miserable asswipe on the cloth of humanity. I've got better things to do that listen to the intellectual orgasm of some goddamned religious sociopath who actually WANTS the majority of humanity to be tortured in hell.

 

As for your brother in faith:

 

Jingus, hey bro, I'm about to post something that might blow everyones mind!!!

 

That's one thing about you, Sola, you keep saying all this stuff as if it were the first time we've ever heard it. It's not, by a long shot. I've been preached at by all different faiths since I was an infant. I still don't buy any of it.

 

Could it be that right now GOD the Father is draging you to Him? Could it be that at this moment in time, that you, Rat's milk, Agent of Oblivion...are actually already saved, and yet just caught in some particular sin that is keeping you from serving your Father the way you should be?

 

If God really wants me, there shouldn't be anything in the universe powerful enough to keep me from Him, period. He can snap His fingers, so to speak, and have it done. There's no need for "draging".

 

1. You are already saved, but you're in a backsliden state

 

No, because I've never considered myself a true Christian believer.

 

2. You have been chosen from the foundation of the world,

 

Don't get me started on the predestination bullshit again.

 

3. You are not saved and just feel like argueing.

 

Probably closest to the truth, but consider this possibility:

 

4. I think you're wrong, and full of shit in general.

 

I believe that God is working on you Jingus!!! And there is nothing you can do about it. He has power and loving ways that you cannot fight against!!!

 

Once again, why does God need to "work" on anything? His will should be the will of the universe. If he wants me, he's got me, there should be no reason to take this damn long or for Him to put any effort into it.

 

God has ordained me to preach the gospel, and that is what I shall do. Whether it is the kinder and gentler words of Spider Poet, or the doctrinal straight forward posts of myself, I don't care, God is alive and using this board to reach His people!!!

 

Yeah, but Dames has ordained me to keep this message board clean and efficient, and there have already been complaints about you and Bubble Bitch. Behave, or you won't be using this board at all.

[Guest Dopey]

Ok, let me get something straight here. With all this talk of God opening your eyes and the church having no meaning as far as salvation goes, how is that you know you are saved? Just a feeling you get? Is it like being in love, where you "just know"?

I do have a point I want to make, but I'd like to get where you guys are coming from on this before I say it.

I Drink Rats Milk, <---(interesting name) I refer you to the Word of God.

 

..."For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba Father." The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,"... Romans 8:15-16

 

IDRM, the absolute power that GOD wields along with His love falls upon a person, and He makes them 'Born Again'. Their old dead spirit literally becomes Alive!!! This is hard to grasp becuase we now move from the physical world to the realm of the spirit. The unseen invisible dimension that very few people get to walk in. I say dimension because even many top physicists now theorize that there are 18 different dimensions, however, we only physically see 4 (height, width, depth, time).

 

The One who made, and owns these dimesions, and lives in one we can't physically see; HE gives eternal life and makes us 'Born Again'. So yes, it is something that you will feel. Although you will not be able with any human language to describe it.

 

...When GOD lays His hand on you, you will know!!!