Guest AlwaysPissedOff Posted January 1, 2003 Report Posted January 1, 2003 Well, I don't think the original question was centered around being "the biggest star", although it does seem that way since he threw Hogan in there. As far as actual workrate goes, Angle's good, but Eddy, Benoit, Rey, and Chavo just completely overshadow him.
Guest Anglesault Posted January 1, 2003 Report Posted January 1, 2003 By the way, this is what I'm referring to. More specifically, if pushed right, could he be better and bigger than Hulk, Stone Cold, the Rock??? If you were in the place of Vinny Mac, could you push Kurt Angle, an Olympic Gold medalist, who has the pro skills in ring and on the mic, farther than those mentioned above??? And as for Chavo, he definately has a more relatable and interesting character than benoit, Especially horrible forced Face Benoit, and *that* is key to becomming a big star these days. It's why everyone knows Hulk Hogan but no onw has ever heard of Steamboat.
Guest Joejigatame Posted January 1, 2003 Report Posted January 1, 2003 So you're basing this on intangibles other than workrate? No one is going to become the bigest star in the company on workrate alone. Take a look at Bret Hart, that disproves your theory straight away. He was given the number one spot in the company, based more on his size and work ethic. He sure as hell wasn't given his run due to his mic work. That was developed as he went along, a work in progress.
Guest Anglesault Posted January 1, 2003 Report Posted January 1, 2003 Of course, Bret did nothing for ratings. Some people today have no idea who the fuck he is (Granted, they are morons)
Guest AlwaysPissedOff Posted January 1, 2003 Report Posted January 1, 2003 Especially horrible forced Face Benoit, and *that* is key to becomming a big star these days. It's why everyone knows Hulk Hogan but no onw has ever heard of Steamboat. I'd have to disagree. You really can't compare Steamboat to "forced face" Benoit because Steamboat could actually draw money and was pretty much over damn near ever single time he was somewhat pushed to the main event. Hell, if Hogan hadn't pulled his shit in the 80's, I'd bet that Steamer would bedamn near a household name because people just LOVED the guy.
Guest Joejigatame Posted January 1, 2003 Report Posted January 1, 2003 True, he was pretty much ratings death when he was first given the shot, but business was in the crapper. Still, he was still the number one guy in the promotion, and stayed there for five years. EDIT- As for the Steamboat comparison, as APO said, he was one of the more charismatic and marketable wrestlers in the 80s. Look at his run in the NWA with Flair and Funk.
Guest Anglesault Posted January 1, 2003 Report Posted January 1, 2003 Especially horrible forced Face Benoit, and *that* is key to becomming a big star these days. It's why everyone knows Hulk Hogan but no onw has ever heard of Steamboat. I'd have to disagree. You really can't compare Steamboat to "forced face" Benoit because Steamboat could actually draw money and was pretty much over damn near ever single time he was somewhat pushed to the main event. Hell, if Hogan hadn't pulled his shit in the 80's, I'd bet that Steamer would bedamn near a household name because people just LOVED the guy. Yes, that was a poor comparison. But there are great wrestlers who enevr bcome anything because quite simply, they have no mic skills/charisma, and the fans find them boring. Still, he was still the number one guy in the promotion, and stayed there for five years. He was the Captain of a sinking ship.
Guest Joejigatame Posted January 1, 2003 Report Posted January 1, 2003 But there are great wrestlers who enevr bcome anything because quite simply, they have no mic skills/charisma, and the fans find them boring. Still, he was still the number one guy in the promotion, and stayed there for five years. He was the Captain of a sinking ship. Firstly, I'd like to know how you define charisma...if it's just mic skills, then that's a pretty stunted view of it. If not, please explain. As for Bret, you're right, WWE/F didn't do so well with him as the figure head. However, you asked for someone who was number one in a company due to his workrate...Bret's a good example.
Guest Anglesault Posted January 1, 2003 Report Posted January 1, 2003 Firstly, I'd like to know how you define charisma...if it's just mic skills, Main Entry: cha·ris·ma Pronunciation: k&-'riz-m& Variant(s): also char.ism /'kar-"i-z&m/ Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural cha·ris·ma·ta /k&-'riz-m&-t&, "kar-iz-'mä-t&/ also charisms Etymology: Greek charisma favor, gift, from charizesthai to favor, from charis grace; akin to Greek chairein to rejoice —more at YEARN Date: circa 1641 1 : an extraordinary power (as of healing) given a Christian by the Holy Spirit for the good of the church 2 a : a personal magic of leadership arousing special popular loyalty or enthusiasm for a public figure (as a political leader) b : a special magnetic charm or appeal <the charisma of a popular actor> Definition 2b is really the closest. It's hard to explain what I consider charisma. In fact, If I have to define it, I usually say Shawn Michaels. You know, it's that *thing* that lets you make a connection with someone.
Guest Joejigatame Posted January 1, 2003 Report Posted January 1, 2003 2b : a special magnetic charm or appeal <the charisma of a popular actor> Definition 2b is really the closest. It's hard to explain what I consider charisma. In fact, If I have to define it, I usually say Shawn Michaels. You know, it's that *thing* that lets you make a connection with someone. The *thing* is, different people connect with different things. Using that definition, a lot of people find Steamboat and Benoit charismatic, because of their appeal in the ring. Be it the intensity of their performances or their mere ring presence, that's still charisma, and both guys have it. They have the *thing*.
Guest creativename Posted January 1, 2003 Report Posted January 1, 2003 We all know Angle is a great wrestler. I want to know, could he be the best pro-wrestler of all time??? No. More specifically, if pushed right, could he be better and bigger than Hulk, Stone Cold, the Rock??? Yes. If you were in the place of Vinny Mac, could you push Kurt Angle, an Olympic Gold medalist, who has the pro skills in ring and on the mic, farther than those mentioned above??? I would. Vince never will. Vince doesn't no who to push. He will never push Angle instead he'd push some idiot like Bill Demont. If Angle was pushed right it would be ausome. I want to see him anfd Brock at Wrestle Mania. I also want Angle to win and before that make Brock beat the hell out of Big Show. EDIT: THIS WAS NOT POSTED BY ME. This must've been posted by my 11-year old little brother. If a mod sees this, could they please change the poster? His handle is ReyReyRox00. Thanks...
Guest Banky Posted January 1, 2003 Report Posted January 1, 2003 It'll take a true star to beat Steve Austin's peak in the WWE. This guy will always be cheered because of his attitude and ability to put forth quality matches. More than his ability, his character is many fans dream of their life. They wish they could drink beer on the job, beat up their boss, cuss like a redneck - its just what draws people in. Fans aren't drawn to Angle in that way. Angle does have the wrestling talent to go far, but to be as big of star as Hogan, Austin, or even Rock? Not F'n likely.
Guest SP-1 Posted January 1, 2003 Report Posted January 1, 2003 I dunno. I think if Angle got to be downright devious, a real underhanded bastard that can still back it up in the ring, he could be superfantabulous over as a Heel. But I dont think a face Angle will reach that level.
Guest RickyChosyu Posted January 1, 2003 Report Posted January 1, 2003 If you want to talk about workers, he's never even been one of the top in the world, let alone of all time. If you want to talk about star power, he's never been a significant draw. I don't really see any point to dragging out the arguement further.
Guest Anglesault Posted January 1, 2003 Report Posted January 1, 2003 . If you want to talk about star power, he's never been a significant draw. He's also never been given a decent push on top.
Guest Dopey Posted January 1, 2003 Report Posted January 1, 2003 If you want to talk about workers, he's never even been one of the top in the world, let alone of all time. That's an awfully big statement their brother. I've watched quite a few Angle matches and I personally think he ranks up their in the top 10 easily.
Guest RickyChosyu Posted January 1, 2003 Report Posted January 1, 2003 If you want to talk about workers, he's never even been one of the top in the world, let alone of all time. That's an awfully big statement their brother. I've watched quite a few Angle matches and I personally think he ranks up their in the top 10 easily. But have you watched quite a few matches from all points in wrestling history? Or even quite a few matches from all over the world? There are few who have. I've never liked people throwing around "of all time" or even "in the world" because it sounds pompous. It's much better to say "best _____ I've ever seen." Then, if you find something better than what you thought was the best, you can change your statement. If you can't back up the claim, it's best not to make it begin with. I haven't seen that much wrestling, in the grand scheme of things, and I can tell you there are countless wrestlers that I would take over Angle. Which statement do you think is more rash? Me saying that Angle can't be the best because I've seen better, or someone claiming that he is the best when they haven't seen nearly enough wrestling to justify that statement?
Guest RickyChosyu Posted January 1, 2003 Report Posted January 1, 2003 . If you want to talk about star power, he's never been a significant draw. He's also never been given a decent push on top. I never said he'd received a decent push. I'm talking about his career thus far, in which he's never been a draw.
Guest Dopey Posted January 2, 2003 Report Posted January 2, 2003 If you want to talk about workers, he's never even been one of the top in the world, let alone of all time. That's an awfully big statement their brother. I've watched quite a few Angle matches and I personally think he ranks up their in the top 10 easily. But have you watched quite a few matches from all points in wrestling history? Or even quite a few matches from all over the world? There are few who have. I've never liked people throwing around "of all time" or even "in the world" because it sounds pompous. It's much better to say "best _____ I've ever seen." Then, if you find something better than what you thought was the best, you can change your statement. If you can't back up the claim, it's best not to make it begin with. I haven't seen that much wrestling, in the grand scheme of things, and I can tell you there are countless wrestlers that I would take over Angle. Which statement do you think is more rash? Me saying that Angle can't be the best because I've seen better, or someone claiming that he is the best when they haven't seen nearly enough wrestling to justify that statement? Well since I'm dopey, and I've seen Loki, Super Crazy, Chono, Sabu, Pork Chop, Bruno Sanmartino, Ric Flair, Austin, Ted DeBiasi, the Junk-Yard Dog, Hogan, Bret 'the Hit-man' Hart, Keji Muto, Kawada, Yuji Nagata, Heavy Metal, Mascara Sagrada, Doink, and of course Jackie Gayda!!! And since some of the afore mentioned are awesome wrestlers with different styles and from different time periods, I'd say that I've seen a little wrestling too. And, well, I'm sorry but I would have to say that Kurt Angle has an overall better package than most of them if not all. He can go for more than 30 minutes and still keep the crowd in it, he can fly, he's got the great ground game, knows how to sell, can work the mic well, he makes crowds go nutz (his debut in I believe it was NY, was the most spectacular display of crowd hatred I've ever seen in all my years of watching wrestling, ever!!!!!), and he has one thing that no other professional wrestler on TV right now that I know of has: a legitimite Olympic Gold medal for the United States of America. Now many people may laugh at that, but it's a fact that Americans love winners!!! And we give our Gold medalists a lot of praise and credit. I believe Vinny dropped the ball with Kurt. Making him a heel from the get go. Bottom line, Angle IMO has the potential (with the right kind of push, i.e. let Paul Hayman have complete control over Angle) to be the best ever in Pro-wrestling. But then again, what do I know, I'm ctone sold dopey!!!
Guest Insane Bump Machine Posted January 2, 2003 Report Posted January 2, 2003 Now many people may laugh at that, but it's a fact that Americans love winners!!! And we give our Gold medalists a lot of praise and credit. I believe Vinny dropped the ball with Kurt. Making him a heel from the get go. Nah, that was one of the best things they ever did. That was genious and gave him instant mega heat. "You don't boo an Olympic gold medallist!"
Guest NoCalMike Posted January 2, 2003 Report Posted January 2, 2003 I think one thing to take into consideration is the WWE Raw/Smackdown split. Since each main event worker only deals with his particular show, it will be hard for ONE WORKER to rise above the rest on both shows since now there are 2 champs. If the Split ends with Angle going over as THE CHAMP, not one of the champ(s), then the foundation could be set.
Guest SP-1 Posted January 2, 2003 Report Posted January 2, 2003 Kurt has alot going for him. ALOT. But it takes time for a man to really hit his stride, and Angle is no exception. It took Austin time, it took Rock time, it took Hogan time, and everyone else. I think Kurt CAN be one for the history books, but he hasn't done it yet.
Guest RickyChosyu Posted January 2, 2003 Report Posted January 2, 2003 "Well since I'm dopey, and I've seen Loki, Super Crazy, Chono, Sabu, Pork Chop, Bruno Sanmartino, Ric Flair, Austin, Ted DeBiasi, the Junk-Yard Dog, Hogan, Bret 'the Hit-man' Hart, Keji Muto, Kawada, Yuji Nagata, Heavy Metal, Mascara Sagrada, Doink, and of course Jackie Gayda!!! And since some of the afore mentioned are awesome wrestlers with different styles and from different time periods, I'd say that I've seen a little wrestling too." Ok, but what matches of their's have you seen? Have you 'seen' them in the sense that you've watched them work before, or have you seen a great body of work from all of them? There's a difference between seeing one or two matches from a given wrestler and seeing a good amount of material that allows you to see just how good they were. "And, well, I'm sorry but I would have to say that Kurt Angle has an overall better package than most of them if not all." Hate to be blunt, but I don't think Kurt can hold the jocks of Kawada, Flair, and Hart, but even discounting them, I don't think Angle is even close to being superior to everyone in that group you listed. He hasn't come close to touching performances like Mutoh/Chono from '91, or some of Debiasi's better performances against Savage. Nagata's match from '01 with Kazuyuki Fujita was more impressive than anything I've seen Angle pull off. I like Kurt, and he's certainly better than many of the guys you listed, such as Doink, JYD, Super Crazy, Sabu, ect. but putting him up there with guys like Flair, Hart, Kawada, and the like is ludicrous. Again, I'm not out to hate on Kurt, but I'm not about to call him a God of Work, either. "He can go for more than 30 minutes and still keep the crowd in it," What thirty minute matches featuring Angle have you watched? I can't think of a match where he went that long, accept for the "ultimate submision" match with Benoit in '01, and that was one of his worst performances ever. By the end he was stalling quite a bit, looked physically drained and seemed to struggle even going through his usual spots while Benoit dragged him along. "he can fly, he's got the great ground game..." Well, aside from his moonsault, which doesn't have the best track reccord even for the few times he's used it, I wouldn't call him much of a flyer. He used a missile drop kick once, too, I think, but that's about it. As for his ground game, I have to disagree there as well. Angle looked lost doing mat-work with Benoit last year in that Ultimate Submision match, having to be guided through the sequences. The only time he's ever attempted that kind of thing was when he had Benoit in the ring with him, and while it hasn't always lead to disaster, he hardly seems competant enough to do it on his own. Usually, when Angle works a hold, he just uses it in the standard "rest hold" spot to get the crowd rallied behind his opponent, which is hardly cause to call him a great mat wrestler. " [he] knows how to sell, can work the mic well..." Angle bumps well, but his selling isn't anything worth mentioning. He hardly ever sells anything long-term, opting instead to pop up and hit big spots that look nice. His selling isn't a reflection of the match, it's a reflection of the moment-by-moment spots that he goes through, so it doesn't allow for an internal storyline to develope. When he's selling the effects of what just happened, he's fine, but he doesn't bother to use selling as an outlet to get over the affects of the match because frankly, he's probably never been instructed to sell that way. Few people in the WWE sell that way, as a matter of fact. "he makes crowds go nutz (his debut in I believe it was NY, was the most spectacular display of crowd hatred I've ever seen in all my years of watching wrestling, ever!!!!!)" Angle is very good at playing the cocky heel, but you previously listed others who played that character and did a better job with it. I'd take Prime Flair, UWF Debiasi and "Stunning" Steve Austin over Angle's current persona, as entertaining as he may be. "...and he has one thing that no other professional wrestler on TV right now that I know of has: a legitimite Olympic Gold medal for the United States of America." The gold medal can make it easier for Kurt to gain credibility as an athlete, but it's not something you can use to convince me he's the greatest of all time. Had Mark Henry gotten gold instead of silver, would he be in the running for greatest of all time along with Kurt? "I believe Vinny dropped the ball with Kurt. Making him a heel from the get go." But like you said, the fan's reaction to Kurt was negative. They wanted to boo him. Vince simply played off of that. "Bottom line, Angle IMO has the potential (with the right kind of push, i.e. let Paul Hayman have complete control over Angle) to be the best ever in Pro-wrestling." I'm not doubting that Kurt has a potential marketability if they handle him correctly, but as a worker, I don't think he has much chance of getting better. He's in a company with a style that rarely pays attention to logical, fundimental wrestling and rellies mainly on "big moments" to keep the crowd's attention, with logical build-up and storylines taking a back seat. As long as he's with the WWE, he has no reason to take his work to another levle, so it's unlikely that he ever will.
Guest Gimmick Poster.com Posted January 2, 2003 Report Posted January 2, 2003 Is Kurt the best, let be like Cena and rhyme with, yes.
Guest Insane Bump Machine Posted January 2, 2003 Report Posted January 2, 2003 The gold medal can make it easier for Kurt to gain credibility as an athlete, but it's not something you can use to convince me he's the greatest of all time. Had Mark Henry gotten gold instead of silver, would he be in the running for greatest of all time along with Kurt? I think that's a dumb comparison. Mark Henry was (well, still is) a weight lifter, Angle was a free-style amateur wrestler. I think we can all agree that freestyle amateur wrestling is a much better start for a career in pro wrestling than weightlifting I agree with your other points, though.
Guest NoCalMike Posted January 2, 2003 Report Posted January 2, 2003 Another thing to ponder in this debate is, does Angle even care to be the best ever? He does not strike me as a "lifer" in the sport of professional wrestling. He strikes me more as a guy who likes to entertain people, and he knows his limitations, and could very well just want to get out of the business after a few years. He is not like other greats that needed ProWrestling to get them somewhere. He was doing fine before Vince came'a'knockin'
Guest RickyChosyu Posted January 2, 2003 Report Posted January 2, 2003 The gold medal can make it easier for Kurt to gain credibility as an athlete, but it's not something you can use to convince me he's the greatest of all time. Had Mark Henry gotten gold instead of silver, would he be in the running for greatest of all time along with Kurt? I think that's a dumb comparison. Mark Henry was (well, still is) a weight lifter, Angle was a free-style amateur wrestler. I think we can all agree that freestyle amateur wrestling is a much better start for a career in pro wrestling than weightlifting I agree with your other points, though. I meant that to be taken in jest. I've always found the idea of pushing pro wreslters based on shoot back grounds to be a paradox: being able to win a fight and being able to entertain are two different things. Many fighters have a marketability that appeals to pro wrestling fans as well as fight fans, but that doesn't always guarantee success either. Pro wreslting, is, when it all comes down to it, a very different beast. Another thing to ponder in this debate is, does Angle even care to be the best ever? He does not strike me as a "lifer" in the sport of professional wrestling. He strikes me more as a guy who likes to entertain people, and he knows his limitations, and could very well just want to get out of the business after a few years. He is not like other greats that needed ProWrestling to get them somewhere. He was doing fine before Vince came'a'knockin' Angle doesn't "need" to keep wrestling in a financial sense, and he's already made enough accomplishments in both pro and amature wrestling to call it a career if he had to, but he seems pretty enamored with the wrestling business right now. Just basing my judgement off of interviews with him, he seems to love wrestling, and seeing how long it takes many wrestlers to let go of the business I'd say it's entirely possible that he's addicted to it just like countless others are. Who knows what his plans were upon enterting, but for the time being he seems like he's not going anywhere (aside from the Olympics).
Guest godthedog Posted January 2, 2003 Report Posted January 2, 2003 pro wrestling strikes me as another challenge to angle. i'm sure he loves it, but it doesn't seem to fuel the same kind of passion inside him that amateur wrestling did. i think angle just sees pro wrestling as his chosen profession for now, and with his work ethic, he just wants to be the best he can possibly be at it. he doesn't appear "addicted" to it in the same way that trips or austin are, in that they need their top spots or they get pissed, cause i've never seen him get visibly discouraged by anything. he just goes out there, very professionally, and does it. he conducts himself in a manner that is totally unlike the guys who have always wanted to be pro wrestlers.
Guest Dopey Posted January 2, 2003 Report Posted January 2, 2003 Ok, but what matches of their's have you seen? Have you 'seen' them in the sense that you've watched them work before, or have you seen a great body of work from all of them? There's a difference between seeing one or two matches from a given wrestler and seeing a good amount of material that allows you to see just how good they were. I'm not doubting that Kurt has a potential marketability if they handle him correctly, but as a worker, I don't think he has much chance of getting better. He's in a company with a style that rarely pays attention to logical, fundimental wrestling and rellies mainly on "big moments" to keep the crowd's attention, with logical build-up and storylines taking a back seat. As long as he's with the WWE, he has no reason to take his work to another levle, so it's unlikely that he ever will. Ok RickyChosyu, you got me there. I have not seen enough of the Japanese wrestlers to warrent a 'body of work' opinion. I've only seen some of the tapes that Dangerous A has lent me. I guess I'm just a Kurt Angle mark and I see his body of work through Olympic Gold stained glasses. So to me I just enjoy watching Angle trying to snap Edges ankle, more than a Stone Cold stunner. Being a grappler myself, I enjoy seeing someone who really can wrestle 'for real', over the Austins and Undertakers. So now I'm left with the lame argument of "Angle Rules"!
Guest RickyChosyu Posted January 2, 2003 Report Posted January 2, 2003 Ok, but what matches of their's have you seen? Have you 'seen' them in the sense that you've watched them work before, or have you seen a great body of work from all of them? There's a difference between seeing one or two matches from a given wrestler and seeing a good amount of material that allows you to see just how good they were. Ok RickyChosyu, you got me there. I have not seen enough of the Japanese wrestlers to warrent a 'body of work' opinion. I've only seen some of the tapes that Dangerous A has lent me. I guess I'm just a Kurt Angle mark and I see his body of work through Olympic Gold stained glasses. So to me I just enjoy watching Angle trying to snap Edges ankle, more than a Stone Cold stunner. Being a grappler myself, I enjoy seeing someone who really can wrestle 'for real', over the Austins and Undertakers. So now I'm left with the lame argument of "Angle Rules"! Theren's nothing wrong with enjoying Angle's matches and his character. I still have his match with Benoit from Unforgiven pegged as the WWE's MOTY, and I've enjoyed watching him perform. I just take acception to statements like "best of all time" because you have to take into acount what it is that you're saying. Liking a wrestler and saying he's the best there ever was are two very different things. As for Austin, I think he has always been able to wrestle, despite how little he actually did that durring the Attitude Era. Once he returned from his neck surgery, he had several very good matches that I would say could hold their own against pretty much anything else going on in America. I liked several of his matches with Angle, and his match with Benoit, in particular, was really good. He often resorted to the brawling that people expected of him, but I think he had the ability to do more, based on his later matches.
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