Kurt Angle, the best ever???

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Simply put, Kurt Angle isn't even the best in the world today, so he isn't close to being the best of all time.

 

A man who has only worked in the big leagues since late 99 and has only wrestled one style his entire career (and the HORRRIBLY flawed "WWE style" at that) makes him better than anyone else ever?!

 

Nah, not even close.

[Guest ManKinnd]

I can easily say Kurt Angle is my favorite wrestler right now, and I tell all my friends that in ten years people will call him the best ever. I may be wrong on that, but what I know for a fact is that I love Kurt Angle's style. His mix of matwork and insane bumping churns out more ****+ matches than I can name. His micwork is something to behold as well, and simply put this guy has something that just makes me smile when I see him in the ring. It's like he's the pro wrestler I've always wanted.

So yes, I do prefer his style to the much acclaimed AJPW style, the ECW style, CZW and XPW styles. Lucha might come close, but overall I think the way he wrestles is just amazing. What he lacks in selling is made up for in pacing (pop-ups aside). He combines matwork, brawl, and big moves to really get the crowd going. And I love it.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

"I can easily say Kurt Angle is my favorite wrestler right now, and I tell all my friends that in ten years people will call him the best ever."

 

That remains to be seen. I highly doubt he'll get that good, but you never know.

 

"I may be wrong on that, but what I know for a fact is that I love Kurt Angle's style. His mix of matwork and insane bumping churns out more ****+ matches than I can name."

 

Again, I have to ask you, what Kurt Angle matches am I missing with all this matwork? Yeah, he uses a bear hug, a body scissors, or something like that every once in a while, but if that's what you classify as matwork, then, not to sound pompous, but you need to see more wrestling.

 

"His micwork is something to behold as well, and simply put this guy has something that just makes me smile when I see him in the ring. It's like he's the pro wrestler I've always wanted."

 

He is indeed very talented on the microphone, and his character is quirky enough that he's fun to listen to.

 

"So yes, I do prefer his style to the much acclaimed AJPW style, the ECW style, CZW and XPW styles. Lucha might come close, but overall I think the way he wrestles is just amazing."

 

I'm sorry, but again I have to ask: have you ever seen an AJPW match? I haven't seen all that much, but from what I've seen it blows away the "WWE Style" in every possible aspect. Kurt has been able to have some very enjoyable matches within the confines of the WWE style, but it's extremely limiting, and I've found All Japan to be far superior.

 

"What he lacks in selling is made up for in pacing (pop-ups aside)."

 

He often takes things outside to waste time and usually doesn't do much for the body of the match. Angle's matches usually finish strong because he's very good at doing lots of false finishes, and quick exchanges at the end that wow the audience. Unfortunately, this makes many of his matches unballanced because there's not much in the way of build-up. His matches with Edge this year are probably the best example of that.

 

"He combines matwork, brawl, and big moves to really get the crowd going. And I love it."

 

It's great that you love watching him, I just don't think he's near the total package you make him out to be. He rarely, if ever, uses matwork, and most of work is spot-driven as opposed to story-driven. It's the only style he knows and it's probably the only style he'll ever use, but it's stil flawed in many ways and so Kurt is also flawed as a worker.

[Guest Lemon Drop Kid]

I have 3 or 4 tapes of AJPW shows, and they're considered to be very good shows. I'd post specific show names but I'm at work and the tapes are not here with me, so I can't tell you off-hand. I prefer a good North American match to anything on these tapes, be it a Flair vs Steamboat match from the late 80s, a Benoit vs Angle match from the last couple of years, or something like Hart vs Michaels from the mid-90s. I find this style to be more dramatic and entertaining. Some prefer All Japan. That's fine, too. I don't see what makes either side inherently "right" or either style inherently "better." There's not an official grading book on what makes a pro wrestling match great, and so it's all subjective anyway.

 

Kurt Angle is one of the best North American wrestlers going today, and that is my favorite style, as it is for many others.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Chosyu, you made a comment about "wasting time on the outside". I disagree, I think the brawling on the outside is a *very* effective heat getter, and I wish they'd do more in Puro. It allows him to slowly beat on his opponent, while jawjacking with fans and it can really really piss them off.

 

Which *is* what he's going for.

 

 

As far as AJ Style vs. WWE Style, well until 1998 they were basically the same format, just different moves and more submissions in AJ. (Staredowns, build to big power-moves, "Will he kick out of the Uber-fininsher?) The current WWE style is a blend of ECW, AJPW, and boxing. What makes it, in my mind the greatest style in the world, is that it relies upon, the charisma of the workers to hook the audience. It provides an almost cinematic experience that can be exhilerating. (WrestleMania X-7, NWO 2000, etc.)

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Good, intense brawling done at the right points in a match can be effective, but not if it disrupts the flow of the match. In his match with Benoit at Unforgiven, for example, he and Benoit do some stuff on the mat until Kurt decides to take things outside. There didn't seem to be any reason why he would do this, but there it was. Where as guys like Austin, Rock, and HHH often got knocked for doing this (WWF Time Wasting Brawl was what many called it) Angle still does it in his longer matches and no one seems to take notice.

 

Lemon Drop Kid, since you didn't list any matches from your tapes, there's no way I can know if I've even seen them or not, but there are some things I'd like to clear up:

 

It's troublesome to get caught up in a debate about which "style" a certain promotion uses. There's no clear-cutt style that everyone in the WWE uses. Many wrestlers work using similar styles, but there are exceptions and often wrestlers can bring in elements from other styles and fuse them together.

 

However, when I say "WWE style" I mean the kind that many of the main event guys work. Don't sell anything for too long, unless you're doing a "double knock-down" spot, if you're a heel, use lots of choking, and if you need to kill time, nothing beats a brawl on the outside. It's borring, predictable, and cheesy. Many of the spots used today are sad parodies of themselves, such as the "long crawl to make the hot tag." They leave out all the aspects that make spots like that dramatic (building up to the tag, selling the effects of the match, ect) and expect it to remain effective.

 

AJPW cannot be confined to one style, either. Saying that would imply that every match was worked the same way. However, many of the wrestlers in AJPW showed a sense of work and attention to their craft that wrestlers in the WWE have not displayed. Suberd selling, well crafted stories, and intricate excanges made some really superb matches and feuds, and I don't think anyone in the WWE now will be able to reach that, including Angle.

[Guest NoCalMike]

Well a lot of people may see Japanese wrestling and not like it as much initially because they don't know the storylines or history of the wrestlers, and/or can't understand the commentary which plays a huge part in american wrestling. However if you take the total package from both worlds, the Japanese(AJPW) product is just way superior, and I can honestly say that with the limited amount I have seen.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Good, intense brawling done at the right points in a match can be effective, but not if it disrupts the flow of the match. In his match with Benoit at Unforgiven, for example, he and Benoit do some stuff on the mat until Kurt decides to take things outside.

 

I assumed he did it then for the same reason he did it at WM X-7: He was being outwrestled by Benoit, so he decided to turn it into a brawl.

 

At least that's what Heyman said.

 

However, when I say "WWE style" I mean the kind that many of the main event guys work. Don't sell anything for too long, unless you're doing a "double knock-down" spot, if you're a heel, use lots of choking, and if you need to kill time, nothing beats a brawl on the outside. It's borring, predictable, and cheesy. Many of the spots used today are sad parodies of themselves, such as the "long crawl to make the hot tag." They leave out all the aspects that make spots like that dramatic (building up to the tag, selling the effects of the match, ect) and expect it to remain effective.

 

That's just generalizing. Hart vs. Austin at SurSer 96 could easily stack up with most if not all AJPW Strong Style matches.

 

Let's be honest here: "Hot tag" is way less retarded then "I'll be happy to sell that powerbomb as soon as I pop up and lariat you." or "Hit me really hard, and I'll hit you really hard." Especially when done by guys like Rock, Mick, Austin, Hart, Michaels, and Hunter.

 

AJPW cannot be confined to one style, either. Saying that would imply that every match was worked the same way. However, many of the wrestlers in AJPW showed a sense of work and attention to their craft that wrestlers in the WWE have not displayed. Suberd selling, well crafted stories, and intricate excanges made some really superb matches and feuds, and I don't think anyone in the WWE now will be able to reach that, including Angle.

 

I assumed you knew I was refferring to AJ Strong Style. Really, the only TRULY great feuds (Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi, Taue, Akiyama) involve years of build-up, and quite frankly the WWE can acheieve the same epic feeling for a match with eight weeks build. If Rock/Austin had gotten the kind of time Kawada/Misawa had, it'd have been the greatest feud ever. Period.

[Guest Brian]

Austin/Rock did have years of build up to it. Austin character took a complete three-sixty in the course of that match because the injuries he had suffered no longer allowed him to be the Austin of old, and becuase of that he was nothing like before and he had to deconstruct that going through the old motions and moves.