Guest IDrinkRatsMilk Posted January 14, 2003 Report Posted January 14, 2003 Death Angel does raise a good point. There are a handful of extreme masochists who would get off on whatever torture you could imagine.
Guest The Hamburglar Posted January 14, 2003 Report Posted January 14, 2003 Heaven sounds like the shittiest, most ubelievably boring place possible to spend eternity. Choirs of angels? Daily suck-ups to God? Nothing ever going wrong, no good natural sin? Screw that. Hell all the way. At least interesting stuff happens there.
Guest Samurai_Goat Posted January 14, 2003 Report Posted January 14, 2003 Hey, Dopey, I have a situation, and I wanted to ask someone who fully believed all that Bible stuff. Anyway, let's say you're stuck in a hole, just you and one other person. There is absolutely no food, and you're both starving to death. The only way for one of you to survive is to kill and eat the other person. So, basically, murder. This is, I believe, a sin. So you avoid it. But, by avoiding it, you would be intentionally starving yourself. Hence, suicide. So, in this situation, is there a way to avoid becoming one of the hellbound? Just curious.
Guest Ram Posted January 14, 2003 Report Posted January 14, 2003 FAIR adj. 1. free from bias, dishonesty, or injustice: proper under the rules: 7. without irregularity or uneveness. By this definition, provided by the 'American College Dictionary', I would say God is fair. Seeing that God is righteous, and holy, and the creator, and the one who made the law; He can be no other. ..."For the LORD is righteous, He loves righteousness; His countenance beholds the upright." Psalm 11:7 According to the definition, if God IS fair, then everyone will get to heaven. You can't be unbiased and allow a decent Christian and not a good Wiccan.
Guest SP-1 Posted January 14, 2003 Report Posted January 14, 2003 That's applying a human fairness to God. God set forth a way to get to Salvation. We have the choice and the right to choose it or to reject it when the knowledge is there. That's fair. The path is there, we can choose to go down it or not. People that reject that path make their bed. They have lie in it for eternity. That's still fair. Truth is not based on perception. There is truth and there is untruth. God deals with truth and that's how he laid things out. Choose it or don't. But you have your fair choice.
Guest Samurai_Goat Posted January 14, 2003 Report Posted January 14, 2003 Hey, I don't think it's fair that we have to choose 1 religious way out of 357 billion religions, and accidently choosing the wrong one is a one way ticket to total not paradise.
Guest Ram Posted January 14, 2003 Report Posted January 14, 2003 Hey, I don't think it's fair that we have to choose 1 religious way out of 357 billion religions, and accidently choosing the wrong one is a one way ticket to total not paradise. That's what I'm thinking. People of all religions can be very passionate about their beliefs. I don't think it's fair at all to base their eternal fate on what path they took and felt drawn to.
Guest SP-1 Posted January 14, 2003 Report Posted January 14, 2003 That's also saying that you want to bend the truth to suit you. The truth isn't like that, whether it's a religious matter or not. Truth is not relative. There are things that are simply true or false. The God of the Universe set forth one single way. His way, out of all the other MAN-MADE religions. His way is the one that takes care of all the messes that sin made, ours do not. His way is the way he set forth, the only one that works on ALL the levels. Would you rather be robbed of that choice? Would you rather God have abandoned us once we fell? "Well, THIS experiment failed. See you later kids, wear lots of sunscreen." No. That is not fair. God did what is perfectly fair. Other religions do not pave the way to the cleansing of sin from us. Nothing we do can accomplish that. Not even the good works that some supposed "Christian" sects cling to. Nothing but the death and spilled blood of Jesus Christ, the sacrifice of God, perfect, could cleanse away those sins. The spilling of blood from animals with no marks was the way God set up covenants before, and the spilling of perfect blood from a part of God Himself is the permanent, irrevocable covenant of cleansing and salvation he made. Other religions don't have that. Other religions make the same mistake that got us into this sinful mess in the first place. They turned from trusting God's way and pursue other gods (and goddesses), other created and imagined "gods", in an effort to go it alone. So I think it's perfectly just and fair. There was only one real way to handle the situation. God handled it and gave us the choice to trust Him and believe in it, in Jesus Christ dying for our salvation and rising to defeat sin and death once and for all. All God asks is that you trust him, that you have faith and accept Christ into your heart in faith and fellowship and let God renew you. I don't think that's too much to ask. I don't think it's too far to go. I would rather be better than the sum of my sinful parts, and the only real, genuine, authentic way that happens is through the continual renewal of my mind and heart through the cleansing relationship with God through Jesus Christ. It comes down to this. God created a way borne of love for us, The Son giving Himself in sacrifice to make a covenant of cleansing with us. Jesus took the bullet when He didn't have to, didn't need to for His own existence and happiness. God's just fine without us. But he loved us enough to do that for us. God made a way, THE way. And He gave us a choice. That's above and beyond the call of His duty to us, and more than fair to me.
Guest cobainwasmurdered Posted January 14, 2003 Report Posted January 14, 2003 IS GOD FAIR? Yes, Yes I am.
Guest Samurai_Goat Posted January 14, 2003 Report Posted January 14, 2003 "Other religions don't have that. Other religions make the same mistake that got us into this sinful mess in the first place. They turned from trusting God's way and pursue other gods (and goddesses), other created and imagined "gods", in an effort to go it alone." How do you know your God wasn't imagined, created the same way as the other religions you criticize? Were you there when God made everything? Did God come down and have a chat with you on your sofa? How can you know that your religion is real at all?
Guest SP-1 Posted January 14, 2003 Report Posted January 14, 2003 As I've said before, after the facts and figures are there, it takes God to get you to latch onto it. I'm not here to change hearts. That's what God is in the business of doing. The evidence for the supernatural presence of God is rarely taken seriously because it generally happens in the presence of other Christians, or completely with the self and confirmed by the similar experiences with other Christians. And if you really want to get technical, yes I've talked with God. Did I see creation happen? No. Do I spend time in prayer? Yes. Have I had visions that applied to times and situations in my life as answers in an ongoing supernatural dialogue with God? Yes. The same goes for supernaturally charged dreams. For a revelation while reading scripture or in prayer or simply considering and talking to Him at any given time. That's the role of the Holy Spirit, which is in us Christians after we confirm our acceptance of Christ. He is the mouthpiece, as it were, for God, speaking through feelings, urges and even strong thoughts in our minds and hearts. Does God come down and have tea and crumpets these days? No. Does He speak to His people regularly in a very real, if supernatural dialogue? Yes. So the answer to your question is the same as most answers are with God. Yes, he's active, but not in the way you demand He is. He's not a plaything or a magic genie, he has PERSONALITY and a personal way of doing things, and His Will is done. Truth and things in the world do not bend to our wishes and needs.
Guest cobainwasmurdered Posted January 15, 2003 Report Posted January 15, 2003 OH COME ON!! I make a classic quip and you NO SELL IT?!? bastards.
Guest Samurai_Goat Posted January 15, 2003 Report Posted January 15, 2003 Look, I'm not saying God should pop up give me a million dollars. But a lot of religion, in my opinion, is like symbolism in english class. If you look through a book hard enough, you'll find symbols, whether the author meant to put them in or not. Just like religion. If look hard enough for something to point at and say “Wow, that’s unusual, it must be a sign from God!”, than eventually you’ll see one.
Guest TheZsaszHorsemen Posted January 15, 2003 Report Posted January 15, 2003 How do you know your God wasn't imagined, created the same way as the other religions you criticize? Were you there when God made everything? Did God come down and have a chat with you on your sofa? How can you know that your religion is real at all? Because we have faith in something that we have no understanding of. It's funny, atheists condemn religon for being uncomprismising in their views, and yet the very nature of atheism rejects anything that cannot be seen, heard, felt, or touched. Maybe it's because religon offers moral guidance on (GASP!) how you SHOULD be acting and not what you want to hear. No matter what faith you practice I hope you know that it is wrong to kill, it is wrong to steal, it is wrong to rape. These arn't suggestions; these are moral codes which all men of all beliefs should embrace. Oh and how do you know there ISN'T a God? At least Chirstians can say, "That we have Bible texts, we have felt God's influence in our lives, we believe that Creation is too magnificant to be just a random happensatnce etc." How can you DISPROVE God?
Guest The Old Me Posted January 15, 2003 Report Posted January 15, 2003 OH COME ON!! I make a classic quip and you NO SELL IT?!? bastards. I think someone beat you to it.
Guest Dopey Posted January 15, 2003 Report Posted January 15, 2003 Hey, Dopey, I have a situation, and I wanted to ask someone who fully believed all that Bible stuff. Anyway, let's say you're stuck in a hole, just you and one other person. There is absolutely no food, and you're both starving to death. The only way for one of you to survive is to kill and eat the other person. So, basically, murder. This is, I believe, a sin. So you avoid it. But, by avoiding it, you would be intentionally starving yourself. Hence, suicide. So, in this situation, is there a way to avoid becoming one of the hellbound? Just curious. Samurai, it is pretty simple. You are looking at salvation with the point of view of WORKS. Let me try and explain this. Most people do not read the Bible, therefore, they see going to heaven in terms of what You have done and what You have not done. The Bible does not teach this. Salvation is of GOD. JESUS' very name means, "I AM SALVATION". I am at work right now so this is going to be waaaayyyy short. True Christianity, at it's very core, teaches that God is the One who saves a person. I'll say this again, GOD is the One who saves people. Therefore, it does'nt matter if I would chose the suicide opption. Since HE choose me to recieve salvation, before HE created the world, then I am going to heaven wheather I choose suicide or not. This is the doctrine of Predestination. It is very long and deep, I don't have time at the moment, however, I will clear this up as soon as I have some time. Maybe a little later on during my lunch break. Just for the sake of argument I would choose not to eat the person I'm stuck with in the hole. More to follow on this deep discusion.
Guest cobainwasmurdered Posted January 15, 2003 Report Posted January 15, 2003 OH COME ON!! I make a classic quip and you NO SELL IT?!? bastards. I think someone beat you to it. But I really AM God
Guest IDrinkRatsMilk Posted January 15, 2003 Report Posted January 15, 2003 Because we have faith in something that we have no understanding of. It's funny, atheists condemn religon for being uncomprismising in their views, and yet the very nature of atheism rejects anything that cannot be seen, heard, felt, or touched. Maybe it's because religon offers moral guidance on (GASP!) how you SHOULD be acting and not what you want to hear. No matter what faith you practice I hope you know that it is wrong to kill, it is wrong to steal, it is wrong to rape. These arn't suggestions; these are moral codes which all men of all beliefs should embrace. Oh and how do you know there ISN'T a God? At least Chirstians can say, "That we have Bible texts, we have felt God's influence in our lives, we believe that Creation is too magnificant to be just a random happensatnce etc." How can you DISPROVE God? It's hard to prove a negative, you know. You can't prove that I'm not a frog, for example. But if I was a frog, I would likely be able to prove it. And not everyone who doesn't believe in your God are staunch atheists either.
Guest Dopey Posted January 15, 2003 Report Posted January 15, 2003 FAIR adj. 1. free from bias, dishonesty, or injustice: proper under the rules: 7. without irregularity or uneveness. By this definition, provided by the 'American College Dictionary', I would say God is fair. Seeing that God is righteous, and holy, and the creator, and the one who made the law; He can be no other. You can't be unbiased and allow a decent Christian and not a good Wiccan. Ram, if God has decreed that witchcraft is evil, then the Wiccan is not making it.
Guest cobainwasmurdered Posted January 15, 2003 Report Posted January 15, 2003 You can't prove that I'm not a frog, for example. dude...your french? *completly ignores the debate*
Guest TheZsaszHorsemen Posted January 15, 2003 Report Posted January 15, 2003 Because we have faith in something that we have no understanding of. It's funny, atheists condemn religon for being uncomprismising in their views, and yet the very nature of atheism rejects anything that cannot be seen, heard, felt, or touched. Maybe it's because religon offers moral guidance on (GASP!) how you SHOULD be acting and not what you want to hear. No matter what faith you practice I hope you know that it is wrong to kill, it is wrong to steal, it is wrong to rape. These arn't suggestions; these are moral codes which all men of all beliefs should embrace. Oh and how do you know there ISN'T a God? At least Chirstians can say, "That we have Bible texts, we have felt God's influence in our lives, we believe that Creation is too magnificant to be just a random happensatnce etc." How can you DISPROVE God? It's hard to prove a negative, you know. You can't prove that I'm not a frog, for example. But if I was a frog, I would likely be able to prove it. And not everyone who doesn't believe in your God are staunch atheists either. an athesist is anyone who denies the existence of any God. I said religon, not the Church.
Guest IDrinkRatsMilk Posted January 15, 2003 Report Posted January 15, 2003 I'm not fucking french! Disregard my example. And by the way, witchcraft and wicca are not the same thing.
Guest cobainwasmurdered Posted January 15, 2003 Report Posted January 15, 2003 I'm not fucking french! Disregard my example. I dunno you *DID* say we wouldn't be able to tell if you were... Damn it you confused me! Why don't you leave me alone you damns surrender monkey!
Guest IDrinkRatsMilk Posted January 15, 2003 Report Posted January 15, 2003 an athesist is anyone who denies the existence of any God. I said religon, not the Church. I know what an atheist is and am now utterly insulted that you would think I didn't. You were talking as if you thought Christianity was the one true faith.
Guest TheZsaszHorsemen Posted January 15, 2003 Report Posted January 15, 2003 an athesist is anyone who denies the existence of any God. I said religon, not the Church. I know what an atheist is and am now utterly insulted that you would think I didn't. You were talking as if you thought Christianity was the one true faith. I was careful not to sound that way, even though I am Catholic. i respect other faiths. i have no respect for those who do not. I used Christians as an example for the disprove god thing.
Guest cobainwasmurdered Posted January 15, 2003 Report Posted January 15, 2003 what? christianity *ISN'T* the ont true faith? HERESY! Get the torches and pitchforks
Guest cobainwasmurdered Posted January 15, 2003 Report Posted January 15, 2003 what? christianity *ISN'T* the ont true faith? HERESY! Get the torches and pitchforks
Guest cobainwasmurdered Posted January 15, 2003 Report Posted January 15, 2003 what? christianity *ISN'T* the ont true faith? HERESY! Get the torches and pitchforks
Guest Dopey Posted January 15, 2003 Report Posted January 15, 2003 You pyromaniac, you... you~! But... what if someone enjoys being roasted in fire? What if they have a soul and they happen to be a robot that finds the fire to be a great massage? ...That's the only stupid question I'll ask today, thank you. I believe that the Darkness, not being able to see anything, and the fact that one will never be able to change the situation, will be probably the most horrible thing about the lake of fire. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the main thing the rich man wanted was water. Why? May I suggest, that although there were flames about, he might not have been in direct contact with them, however, he felt much thirst. Some like to spiritualize this passage, however, I believe that he was truly thirsty. The eternal lake of fire is only an Icon. It is a picture that we try to see with our minds eye. Will there be fire? Yes. Will they be able to see it? No. I suggest that the lake of fire must be something that we don't totally understand at this point. However, it is going to be bad. I think it might be like tartaroo in the greek. A place, a chamber if you will, that is absolutly bottomless. And completely dark. Darkness and firey pain. You know you could smear white-phosphorus on your skin and it will burn!!! It does not need to be lit on fire. If you don't believe me, ask anyone who has handled it, I have, ouch!!! It is not neccassary for actual fire that can be seen with the eye, to be in the lake of fire. Just a thought. Remember though, that it will never end. That is where the HORROR lies.
Guest Dopey Posted January 15, 2003 Report Posted January 15, 2003 You were talking as if you thought Christianity was the one true faith. IT IS!!!
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