Some Thoughts on bps21's Collumn

[Guest RickyChosyu]

After all the TNA-hating I did last time on the WWE board, I thought I would bring my blaspheming to a place meant for constructive critisism.

 

ECW was probably about as successful as a company like TNA can hope to be for the time being. ECW had a cult following of loyal fans that served as ultimate sounding board for ideas. When a gimmick or angle didn’t work…they let you know. All fans are like that though; the difference is how the company chooses to handle this information. Dealing with the wall between the viewer and the product is the biggest decision that a company can make. ECW’s “philosophy” was to give the fans what they wanted, sometimes to the detriment of the product.

 

So ECW differentiated itself from the others by listening to what the fans wanted? I hate to be cynical, but that seems to be the winning formula for every wrestling organization that make gains success. As a general rule, it's assumed that when a promotion stops listening to its fans, the business enters a decline. I'm not sure if I'm missing the point you were trying to make here, but it seemed to me like you were re-stating something we all know.

 

I would agree that in some ways "listening to the fans" was what drove ECW into the dead-end of Hardcore Wrestling, though.

 

I know some people can’t understand why there are so many “ECW mutants” running about, but it really isn’t that hard a concept to grasp. An “ECW mutant” is someone who loved ECW’s product because it not only appealed to them, but also because it continued to adapt and change at their request.

 

I'd say the defining trait of mutants is the wannabe "hardcore" fan who only wants to like something few people know about. Fans who got so sick of all the bullshit Eric and Vince were feeding them that they started to eat Paul's and convinced themselves they liked it. It was meant for the rebellious guy who cheered the heels and jeered the faces just to be different. Heyman gives them this "Hardcore Path" rhetoric and suddenly they're "ECW 4 LIFE" and "FUCK WCW, FUCK WWF" no matter what product was actually better. Mutants are the wrestling equivolent to the Punk Rockers who all wear "FUCK MTV" patches and will listen to anything as long as it isn't main stream.

 

I always felt they pushed Tommy Dreamer too hard as something special when all I saw was a regular guy. On the flip side though, the fans wanted RVD to be a star, and ECW complied.

 

I don't think Heyman ever pushed Dreamer enough, actually. The Raven feud got him mega over and Heyman could have put him over Raven at any point, but because Paul is a Super Genius he drags it out over two years when the rumble of anticipation had fallen to a murmur.

 

It also didn't help that Dreamer did jobs for pretty much anyone who stepped foot in ECW. I know he wanted to help the company and help make new stars, but you can only do that so many times before it loses any meaning, and by the time ECW had died, Tommy lossing was practically routine. What meaning did it have when Credible went over him when Tommy had been pinned by everyone under the sun prior to that?

 

Paul never put the title on RVD, either. Paul always claimed that he wanted to "save it" and slowly build it up, but Rob always seemed to be floundering around in a feud over the TV strap while Douglas, Taz, and Credible were fighting over the World title. He was never headed towards any kind of title reign. Van Dam was often featured in main events, but how could he truly be elevated if Heyman was never willing to give him a run with the top belt?

 

The first problem is always money. Heyman didn’t have any…at least not by the time he was through.

 

Dave Scherer (in an article in which he was defending Heyman) made it clear that Paul was constantly funding the company through his famillies money. There was never a point when ECW was self-sufficient and able to run without that extra support.

 

The other major problem you encounter is an inability to grow your audience. Yes they landed a TV deal and yes they ran on pay per view…but expansion is not the same as growing. You lock onto your audience and do what you can to make them happy all the time, and in the end you will still only have that audience.

 

I don't think Paul had to worry much about driving away his own audience. Most of his followers would never admit how bad some of the shows were, or point out any of his problems as a booker. I think what was far more damaging was the jump to pay per view in '97, where anyone who was curious in seeing what the hype was about discovered just how small-time Paul and co. really were. On pay per view, Paul coulnd't edit matches to make them seem faster or remove the mistakes. Joey Styles had to try and keep the viewer interested on his own, many times durring noticeably bad matches. He was exposed quite a bit, and the entire product itself came out as minor-league to anyone who wasn't a Heyman follower.

 

Shock value aside, I’ve always wondered what, if anything, Russo could have hoped to accomplish in WCW.

 

Well, considering what the WWF was before he went in there and turned them around, I'd say he could have hoped for anything he wanted.

 

[Russo] walked into a mess of a situation where the top guys wouldn’t create any new stars, but they also wouldn’t show up for long enough to book them as the top guys.

 

Who of WCW's Top Names wouldn't show up? Sting showed up. Nash certainly showed up. Golberg showed up. Steiner showed up when he wasn't suspended.

 

I’ve said this before: Russo tried to build a main event scene around Jeff Jarrett and Booker T, and yet neither of them could ever really be put over anyone but each other.

 

Didn't Golberg do the job for Booker? I know Nash did a clean job for Booker as well. Sting also lost to him at some point, I'm sure of it.

 

So in the end Russo’s WCW run was left with a bigger mess…but with more dick and fart jokes. This is the blueprint for how not to run a company…wrestling or otherwise.

 

And yet the Jarretts seem to think otherwise. That's the kind of thing that reminds me why the human race hasn't been contacted by any other intelligent life yet.

 

That brings us to the top dog, the WWE. We seem to learn more and more about their “philosophy” every day. Sometimes people on the message board start threads like “When did everything turn wrong for the WWE?” Common answers include things like turning Steve Austin heel at WrestleMania 17 or the botched Invasion angle. Most picks seem to come from somewhere in early-mid 2001. And why not? 1998 and 1999 were such huge years financially for the WWE, and 2000 was arguably their best product in ring wise. I’ve come to believe, more and more each day, that the moment that things turned wrong for the WWE was on June 23, 1996. The night that Steve Austin transitioned from underused talent into biggest star in the history of North American wrestling with one simple sentence. That very night Vince McMahon lost control of his company forever. Until that night the WWF “philosophy” towards it’s fans was simple and precise. We sell it until you buy it. It was exact and it never changed. WWF wanted us to like Hulk Hogan…and we did. They wanted us to like the Ultimate Warrior…and we did. Fans didn’t change the course of anything. Vince McMahon had the entire product and its audience in the palm of his hand. During the Kliq years, business went into the shitter because, among other reasons, Vince let the inmates run the asylum. Kevin Nash and Shawn Michaels tanked that product. Even then we were supposed to like them…and we did. The “philosophy” of the company force-feeding the fans hit a snag that night in Wisconsin. The first non-WWF created superstar was born. The Austin era made wrestling so popular that you couldn’t leave your house without seeing multiple Austin 3:16 t-shirts. But guess what? Going into that King of the Ring pay per view…you weren’t supposed to like Steve Austin. For as much money as Steve Austin’s rise made Vince, and even though he put the WWF back on top for good…his reign may ultimately be the undoing of that company. Why? Because of a new rule of wrestling that I’m just now starting to understand: You can NEVER go back.

 

I know that's quite a read, but it seems to me that the entire paragraph above is designed to convince me, the reader, that listening to the fans is bad, and that telling them what to like is good. Again, if I'm mistaken, feel free to correct me.

 

Assuming that I understand you clearly, wrestling can only be successfull if the promoter tells the fans what to like? What about when Vince was telling them to like Nash vs. Mabel? Was that "good" for business because Vince was telling the fans what to like?

 

What about a case like the Undertaker, who started out as a monster heel but recieved a possitive reaction? Vince heard the reactions he was receiving and turned him face. Seeing as that example predates the one you gave of Austin by quite a bit, I feel that you should re-think your thesis.

 

This week will be the 29th week of new content broadcast by NWA TNA. Over that time they have been developing their own “philosophy”. Last week the final nail went into the coffin as to what road they will take. As I mentioned before, TNA panders to the internet audience more than any other company I have seen. They take their viewers (most of which do come from the internet wrestling community) opinions very seriously. Haven’t seen the Dupps around lately have you? Daniels, Skipper and Low Ki aren’t only back…but they’re thriving. Styles and Lynn are moving on up to the heavyweight division, while guys like Red and Kid Kash are being groomed to take their place in the X division.

 

And the big question: what about Vinnie Ru? Am I missing the "We Want Russo" chants every time he's not on camera (which is pretty rare)? I don't want to be too offensive, but how can anyone make claims of NWA-TNA "listeing to its fans" when Russo, a guy people hate watching and hate listening to even more, is all over the show as the top heel, the only guy that matters, and the biggest force in the company? Where is the logic in that? People chant "Your Writing Sucks" and TNA responds with....more Russo!

 

Appologies if I come off too harsh at various points, but I just don't see the logic in saying that TNA is "in it for the internet fans" (who presumably like wrestling) when the guy running things uses the philosophy of "tell them that wrestling sucks and that my brand of entertainment is better."

[Guest Tony149]

I'm not Bps, but I'd like to point out a few things: Yes, Sting, Nash & Goldberg all jobbed to Booker, but they weren't too happy (not sure about Nash or Sting, but Goldberg was) about doing the j-o-b. Right at 3 Goldberg kicked out, cheaping the win. This was pointed out on the boards at that time.

 

The showing up part, not sure what Bps meant there as it was more of the top guys having problems with Russo's desire to have them job and/or work with new talent (Benoit, etc) than showing up.

[Guest Retro Rob]

Although Russo is heavily pushed in TNA, the good still outnumbers the bad. If Russo's push is the only thing wrong with TNA, that's saying something considering how young the company is. Especially if you compare them to their competetion the WWE. TNA pushes wrestlers that are both over and talented. The WWE generally pushes people who are neither over or talented (see Batista, Nathan Jones, A-Train, etc). All in all, TNA may make one major mistake every week with Russo, but they do about a dozen other things the right way, so I consider that a fair trade. Of course this would all mean so much more if I actually watched TNA, but whatever.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Yes, Sting, Nash & Goldberg all jobbed to Booker, but they weren't too happy (not sure about Nash or Sting, but Goldberg was) about doing the j-o-b. Right at 3 Goldberg kicked out, cheaping the win. This was pointed out on the boards at that time.

 

Ah, I remember that now. Frequent reports were coming out of WCW about how "Goldberg was behaving unprofesionally" and "was completely unwilling to cooperate with Russo or do jobs for Booker" and what not. Then we got the infamous "Goldberg walks out on the match, because it's a SHOOT" moment at New Blood Rising that pretty much explained why Russo was so willing to tell the internet how "Unprofesional" Goldy is/was.

 

Funny how backstage reports seem to conveniently "play out" in the storylines he books on television, TNA included. He must have the devil's luck, that Vinnie Ru.

 

The showing up part, not sure what Bps meant there as it was more of the top guys having problems with Russo's desire to have them job and/or work with new talent (Benoit, etc) than showing up.

 

Russo's second run as WCW booker happened after Benoit, Guererro, Malenko, and Saturn had left WCW. As far as I can tell, everyone, save DDP, did a job for Booker at some point. Yes, there were the usual parasites who were bleeding the company dry, but then Russo had no problem putting the world strap on any of them either.

 

I guess that's the latest excuse for Russo putting the title on himself: "No one else was willing to work with Booker T."

 

Although Russo is heavily pushed in TNA, the good still outnumbers the bad.

 

I (and many who attend TNA shows, it would seem) don't see it that way. Russo is the star of the show. Russo is the show. Russo is also being promoted as the worst booker in the world, and the cause of WCW's death. How can anyone get excited when the main hype for the show is "See even MORE of that guy that you hate watching and LESS of that wrestling that you like watching!!!"

 

"If you want Lucha Libras, go back to Japan or Mexico." - Vince Russo, The Guy Who Books for the Internet Fans

 

If Russo's push is the only thing wrong with TNA, that's saying something considering how young the company is.

 

Everything revolves around Russo's push, so it's one hell of a problem. Beyond even that, Russo's booking is a problem. It sucks. The fans think so, that seems almost certain. He wants to tell wrestling fans that wrestling isn't a good form of entertainment. It's ludicrous. He's telling die hard fans of a certain genre that they shouldn't like that genre. To paraphrase a quote I once heard, it's like someone walking on camera in the middle of a Simpsons episode and informing the viewers that "Reality TV draws better, so this show isn't a cartoon anymore." It's fucking insane, and if I ever find an example of it, you know, WORKING, I'll eat my copy of Wrestlemania X.

 

Especially if you compare them to their competetion the WWE.

 

Yep wip out the token "lesser of two evils" arguement to make this a true TNA Debate. If you're going to defend a company, please stay away from arguements like "it's better than [inster horrible angle booked on Raw]" and move on to the substancial stuff.

 

TNA pushes wrestlers that are both over and talented.

 

This is a company who's two biggest stars appear to be Vince Russo and Mike Tennay. Under them you've got Nikita Koloff, Dusty Rhodes, Jarrett, and the Road Warriors.

 

Yeah, lots of hot, talented acts there, huh?

 

The WWE generally pushes people who are neither over or talented (see Batista, Nathan Jones, A-Train, etc).

 

After you made a generalization about TNA without giving any examples you managed to remember three choads floating about the WWE, one of which hasn't even debuted yet. I mean jumping Jesus Christ, the world champion on Smackdown right now is Kurt Angle, who has his own little tag team faction who get to fued with Chris Benoit.

 

I haven't watched the WWE in a good while and I'm hardly what you'd call a suporter of theirs, but fair is fair.

 

All in all, TNA may make one major mistake every week with Russo, but they do about a dozen other things the right way, so I consider that a fair trade.

 

Russo booking the show is mistake enough to ensure the company dies sooner or later. He's responsible for some of the lowest-rated pay per views in the history of wrestling, he makes a point of telling wrestling fans they shouldn't like wrestling, and devotes the show to putting himself over, to boot.

 

It doesn't matter how many things they get right, as long as Russo is running the Russo Show.

[Guest Black Tiger]

I don't think Heyman ever pushed Dreamer enough, actually. The Raven feud got him mega over and Heyman could have put him over Raven at any point, but because Paul is a Super Genius he drags it out over two years when the rumble of anticipation had fallen to a murmur

The problem here is that by the time Heyman put Dreamer over Raven, ECW had already gone national, so most of the newer fans didn't know the whole story. I've always said Dreamer needed to go over Raven at Barely Legal, whether it was for the title or not didn't matter. Plus by advertising that Raven was leaving ECW every fan in the bingo hall that night knew Dreamer was going over.

[The Dames 0]

Here is a perfect example of one of WCW's flaws. Goldberg jobbing to Booker T for the World Title should be a big deal, but other than the night it happened or maybe the week after, was it ever brought up again on WCW TV? I barely remember anything about that match, let alone the finish. For some reason, the only Booker T match ups that I remember well (World title matches anyway) are his matches with Scott Steiner, Jeff Jarrett, Kevin Nash and Lance Storm of all people.

 

WCW always advertised poorly as well. Other than the nWo shirt, have they ever had a piece of merchandise that did fairly well?

 

Dames

[Guest Black Tiger]

In late 1998 when Flair revived the four horsemen they did pretty well for sales, even with the constant burial of the horsemen. Of course every monday night for months on end we'd see Public Enemy advertising their Hockey Jersey and I'd never seen anyone not named Rocco Rock or Johnny Grunge ever wear one.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

TNA is beyond a mess. Russo's vision caters to himself. It's not an alternative to the horrible WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE, it is a low rate copy cat, that can use a few more profanities due to being on PPV and a few more secret terms that only 2 people in the world care about.

 

Last night, there was DEAD silence during the Shiavonie/Tenne showdown, dead slience for anything Russo did. Guess who got the most heat? The OLD AS DIRT Rock and Roll Express who along with TNA's most talented tag team, AMW, puts on a typically sound Southern Style tag team match.

 

I have heard Russo say it way too much. He says that iof he is a big heel, he can use it to get heat for the other guys. Doesn't work that way. Didn't work when he helped kill WCW, doesn't help now.

 

Then again, you could go over to vincerusso.net and see his legion of two of the most stupid people ever proclaim his greatness.

 

TNA won't be around in a year. If it is, more power to them but they will NEVER be more than a 2nd rate Indy promotion.......ECW kind of rings a bell there.

 

Tim

[Guest bob_barron]

TNA needs to STOP mentioning the WWF and WCW.

 

Road Dogg's 'I sold out MSG' promos, Vince, Tenay and Tony debating over who killed WCW, Curt Hennig mentioning Brock-

 

It just makes the promotion look really bush league. Concentrate on making sure one day someone can claim they sold out TNA so you don't end up having promos where people wonder who killed TNA.

[Guest Tony149]

TNA needs to STOP mentioning the WWF and WCW.

 

It just makes the promotion look really bush league.

Would the same apply to Burger King mention McDonald's or the Big Mac? ECW would do the same. Hell, even J.R. when he worked for the NWA/WCW would throw in a shot, he wouldn't say it by name, but you knew. That sort of thing doesn't bother me.

 

Ooh, the return of the doomsday prediction. I thought that was supposed to happen on their first night.

[Guest treble charged]

TNA needs to STOP mentioning the WWF and WCW.

 

It just makes the promotion look really bush league.

Would the same apply to Burger King mention McDonald's or the Big Mac? ECW would do the same. Hell, even J.R. when he worked for the NWA/WCW would throw in a shot, he wouldn't say it by name, but you knew. That sort of thing doesn't bother me.

And where are both companies today? Promotions (especially new ones, trying to get a following) shouldn't bring up the WWF/E on their shows, as, like Bob said, it just makes them look bushleague.

[Guest Tony149]

Those cases were different. NWA/WCW had everything it took to be #1 -- an owner (Turner & Time Warner) with lots of money, cross-promotions with many other networks, etc., but bad management and the fact their owners didn't care about it hurt them in the end. I don't know the story of ECW too well, but if Heyman had the money (good money not something for like a month), they'll probably still be around.

[Guest J*ingus]

Interesting arguments, all. It's hard for me to objectively view TNA sometimes, since I'm at all the shows and know half the people working on them. The wrestlers (well, most of them) are trying as hard as they can, I can tell you that much. If I was forced to name one major flaw with the company, it would be that it's not as organized as I think it could be, oftentimes the card and bookings aren't scheduled until a couple of days before the shows, which can certainly harm the product as a whole.

[Guest bob_barron]

TNA needs to STOP mentioning the WWF and WCW.

 

It just makes the promotion look really bush league.

Would the same apply to Burger King mention McDonald's or the Big Mac? ECW would do the same. Hell, even J.R. when he worked for the NWA/WCW would throw in a shot, he wouldn't say it by name, but you knew. That sort of thing doesn't bother me.

 

Ooh, the return of the doomsday prediction. I thought that was supposed to happen on their first night.

But Burger King isn't a brand new company just starting up.

 

TNA should spend all its time building up their name instead of spending time knocking down other companies names,

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I have heard Russo say it way too much. He says that iof he is a big heel, he can use it to get heat for the other guys. Doesn't work that way. Didn't work when he helped kill WCW, doesn't help now.

 

Hold on now, Tim, let's get the facts straight: Russo didn't WANT to be on TV durring his run as WCW booker. That was *Eric Bischoff's* idea, not his! Get it right, already!

 

"He said it was Eric Bischoff's idea to have Russo go on television as a character." -- WO.com Recap of Russo's interview on Xtreme Mayhem

 

I wonder who's "forcing" Russo to appear in every segment on TNA now. Must be Jerry Jarrett. Or something.

 

Then again, you could go over to vincerusso.net and see his legion of two of the most stupid people ever proclaim his greatness.

 

Christ, is that place still around? I've only made a few visits there myself, but from what I recall, it's comedy gold! All of Russo's Apollogists gathering in a heaping love fest to celebrate the Super Genius Himself! Marvelous!

 

Would the same apply to Burger King mention McDonald's or the Big Mac? ECW would do the same. Hell, even J.R. when he worked for the NWA/WCW would throw in a shot, he wouldn't say it by name, but you knew. That sort of thing doesn't bother me.

 

Actually, I think the Big Mac annalogy does apply. I'm no expert on the subject, but I'm pretty sure McDonnalds is a more lucrative company than Burger King. Anyone want to clear this up?

 

As if anyone needed a reminder of how bush league ECW was, the shots at WCW made it abundantly clear, that's for sure.

 

"If they suck so much, why do they make more money in a week than you do in a year?" -- Question someone should have asked Shane Douglas in his numerous ~SHOOT~ promos

 

Those cases were different. NWA/WCW had everything it took to be #1 -- an owner (Turner & Time Warner) with lots of money, cross-promotions with many other networks, etc., but bad management and the fact their owners didn't care about it hurt them in the end.

 

Nah, the killing off of the territories hurt the NWA far more than Turner not carring about them. Before it went national the wreslters could just wrestle in a territory until they got stale and then move on. On a national levle, they had to build wrestlers and feuds constantly, as opposed to just changing territories when things got slow. This resulted in a lack of interesting top challenges for Flair who had previously gotten by on the "NWA Touring Champ" formula and wrestling the top babyfaces within a certain area.

 

I don't know the story of ECW too well, but if Heyman had the money (good money not something for like a month), they'll probably still be around.

 

Heyman had money. He used his famillies' money to finance ECW and never turned a profit above what he was spending. There was never a point when ECW could be self-sufficient and lucrative as a company.

 

More money for Paul would have simply meant more money for him to lose. It would have put off his inevitable bankruptcy, not prevented it.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"Hold on now, Tim, let's get the facts straight: Russo didn't WANT to be on TV durring his run as WCW booker. That was *Eric Bischoff's* idea, not his! Get it right, already!"

 

Yes, my bad. All Bischoff's idea. Score one for Vinnie Ru!

 

"He said it was Eric Bischoff's idea to have Russo go on television as a character." -- WO.com Recap of Russo's interview on Xtreme Mayhem"

 

2-0 Russo on me. God damnit.

 

"I wonder who's "forcing" Russo to appear in every segment on TNA now. Must be Jerry Jarrett. Or something."

 

Ricky, here is where you got it wrong. The crowd goes apeshit when he comes out...you probably just don't pay enough attention!

 

by the way, check out these sites and look for posts by Marty 2 Hotty and Lord Meph if you need some comedy to brighten up your day:

 

www.vincerusso.net

www.totalnonstop.com

 

Tim

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

Holy Crap...

 

I just went to those two boards you just mentioned, Tim. That Marty dipshit needs a swift kick in the head and Lord Meph is a complete idiot, as well.

 

Damn, that was a good laugh...

[Guest RickyChosyu]

"Trust me, we are the majority. You are always going to have the puro-marks who won't be happy until every single last drop of actual 'entertainment' is sapped out of a pro wrestling show."

 

"Pro wrestling has always been about storylines, not 'ring work'. Yes, matches are important, but they should be the culmination of a good story. That's what Russo is doing, that's why he's there, and that's why TNA now kicks ass. Go ahead...repeat after me: S.E.X.! S.E.X.! S.E.X.!"

 

"yeah, russo is saving tna--taking it to the next level. even tho i didn't think last night's show was one of the best, it was still good. and some great moments. seems shivone has really got people talking, and that's a good thing."

 

"ok, some of us our russo, sex fans, some of us are matt wrestling fans, and some of us are both, but nwa-tna has us all fired up. honestly, it is the best wrestling show since russo's turn in wcw, or the attitude era of wwe..."

 

This stuff doesn't just write itself, it parodies itself. Glorious.You want all of this.

 

Ricky, here is where you got it wrong. The crowd goes apeshit when he comes out...you probably just don't pay enough attention!

 

Yep, I'm must be one of those pesky "wrestling fans" who are polluting today's wrestling scene. Wrestling is EVOLVING, and Brother Russo is leading the way!

[Guest Tony149]

Oh, real big, guys. In a way this is kind of funny as Downhome told me a few days ago how people would bash or make fun of others' opinions because they didn't agree, and how that shouldn't be going on.

 

I've happened to know Marty & Meph for a few years now - hell, I post at both forums Tim mentioned, so this might seem like I'm standing up for them or something. But to make fun of them because they have different views on wrestling is a joke IMO - they aren't even here. Marty is a 19 year old, so I understand where he comes from on his view that bell-to-bell mat wrestling won't fly in America. I'm not going to lie, he's a Russo mark. Nothing wrong with that. Everybody likes things others might not. He's part of that MTV generation like I am. I don't always agree with him, but I respect his opinion. Lord Meph is older than most of the posters here, but he defends his views a helluva lot better than Marty. He's said he likes wrestling but feels the matches should have a story to give them meaning besides matches for the sake of matches. But of course, we won't mention that, ragging on them because they like or agree with Russo is fun and dandy.

 

I don't give a damn about puro, but I'm not going to knock a guy because they like it or go to another forum and make fun of them because they do.

 

APO, I have no problem with you, but I expect Mods to be more civil than your "dipshit" comments. I've never seen any of our other Mods (Bps, Kahran, Brian, Dr. Tom or Dames) call other people "dipshits" - well, maybe directed towards HHH or something in the current events folder - but never at another poster. While Marty and Meph aren't posters here - at least that I know of - I've always felt a Mod should never throw names around no matter what...unless it's a personal attack directed at you or your family.

 

I hardly get worked up on the board, but this isn't an attack on anybody. If it feels that way...I apologize.

[Guest DrTom]

APO, I have no problem with you, but I expect Mods to be more civil than your "dipshit" comments. I've never seen any of our other Mods (Bps, Kahran, Brian, Dr. Tom or Dames) call other people "dipshits" - well, maybe directed towards HHH or something in the current events folder - but never at another poster. While Marty and Meph aren't posters here - at least that I know of - I've always felt a Mod should never throw names around no matter what...

I disagree, Tony. I've called people "dipshits" before -- and maybe even worse names -- and I've dropped the F-bomb, though I don't do it often. That's because I just don't curse terribly often, not because I feel I shouldn't because of my position. Basically, I don't think moderators should be held to any different standards in posting that anyone else. There's no reason, IMO, for someone to feel they have to censor themselves because they have a flashy thing beneath their name. While we're responsible for keeping the peace and making sure the board runs smoothly so the members can enjoy it, there's no reason we ourselves can't enjoy it at the same time.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Marty and Meph made no factual claims to back up ANYTHING they say. And Meph being intelligent in responses, read his stuff about arm bar aficianados and he has other insults too if it is anti-Russo.

 

Marty says everything not with Russo is from 1970's.

 

But more power to them. Because one of two things is going to happen:

 

1. TNA will fire Russo and try to be an actual alternative.

 

or

 

2. TNA will just die.

 

Tim

[Guest Tony149]

They do say that, but in Meph's case, he starts saying those things after somebody else would say something to him. They bait each other.

 

I'm going to use an example.

 

If you call me a "Russo mark" or "not a fan of wrestling", then naturally like most will do in the heat of the moment, I would response with something like "all you want is for American wrestling to become more like puro." All that will spark is name calling whenever a post is made by either guy.

 

That's why I hardly post is any of our wrestling forums anymore. Nobody can respect others views.

[Guest Midnight Express83]

I haven't seen TNA in months. From what I read, I might not ever again. The problem with TNA isn't the wrestling, because they do throw solid matches out alot, its the fact that I stopped watching WCW when bookers/owners are in main storylines that are boring. TNA is following this trend.

 

I find it boring as hell when we seen this SAME ANGLE being done since late 1997. It was played out by WM15. It was dead when Russo was doing in 2000 in WCW. It is a damn shame that BOTH feds currently are doing this crap.

 

Russo's problem is that he has a correct theory. But his booking style is so flawed. It is funny that people say promos are a thing of "Attitude" but there were interviews since the 50s. Billy Graham not only got over on promos, but spawned so many famous wrestlers basiclly stealing everything from him left and right.

 

All matches should have some meaning to them. But when the talking outshines the wrestling, then there is a problem. TNA will die in 2 years because they are doing everything WCW did. Push old wrestlers, stale wrestlers, and non wrestlers. WWE is doing this too, the thing is WWE can get away with it more because they are still pulling a profit. As much as they are spewing out crap, they still aren't in the red so they can justify it. Even if it is a BS tag line.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Oh, real big, guys. In a way this is kind of funny as Downhome told me a few days ago how people would bash or make fun of others' opinions because they didn't agree, and how that shouldn't be going on.

 

"I mean, I have been reading the Internet excessively in the last 6 months. I got to tell you,

 

all the traditionalists (reporters/fans) talk about is: "Ohh.. that guy did a good move, he 'missed' spots, he is not good at acting by taking fake kicks, he doesn't know how to 'fake' punch somebody, great suplex, slobberknocker, great headlock, great move, great wrassler, great grappler". It makes me sick to hear the Internet ONLY talk about people's 'in-ring' work." -- Marty 2 Hotty

 

Maybe you should talk to Marty about making fun of others opinions because they don't agree.

 

But to make fun of them because they have different views on wrestling is a joke IMO - they aren't even here.

 

Russo's Appologists aren't the type to listen. Just look at the other threads where people offer up conflicting view points on the TNA product. Anyone who doesn't think Russo is the savior of wrestling is a "puro mark" who doesn't know what wrestling is really about. Anyone who doesn't cream themselves for a Russo shoot interview or points out how dead the crowd was gets called a "WWE Fanboy" or some such nonsense. I don't bother with their type. Better to leave them to their own devices.

 

Marty is a 19 year old, so I understand where he comes from on his view that bell-to-bell mat wrestling won't fly in America. I'm not going to lie, he's a Russo mark. Nothing wrong with that. Everybody likes things others might not. He's part of that MTV generation like I am. I don't always agree with him, but I respect his opinion.

 

I'm glad you're feeling the respect and all, but I respect people who back up their opinions with substancial evidence. Russo enters WCW, WCW goes out of business. Marty and Meph keep touting him as "the savior of wrestling." The crowd chants "borring" durring a Tennay interview because they don't care about Russo's shoot garbage, the the Russo crew create a thread dedicated to calling the people who attended the show "losers" because they don't enjoy the product of Brotha Vinnie Ru.

 

"Does this make logic?" -- Konnan (an overused quote, but I don't think anyone draws it out like Russo Appologists do)

 

Lord Meph is older than most of the posters here, but he defends his views a helluva lot better than Marty. He's said he likes wrestling but feels the matches should have a story to give them meaning besides matches for the sake of matches. But of course, we won't mention that, ragging on them because they like or agree with Russo is fun and dandy.  

 

"Man, I wish TNA would just have RASSLIN! I mean, who wants to be entertained? If I wanted to be entertained, I'd watch something else other than wrestling, like that genious randy says! Wrestling isn't supposed to be ENTERTAINMENT, it's supposed to be manly men being manly!! I'd rather watch two guys in tights giving each other ambiguosly-gay rest holds for 40 minutes straight! Long live pureouso!!!" -- Lord Meph, the TNA Board's Voice of Reason?

 

Tony, if you want to make a point, the best way is to give an example to back up that point. From my brief delve into those two forums (they're a bit much even for me to swallow) I've seen nothing but grade-school levle discusion from two adults who should know better. If you want to give an example of Meph "backing up his points" give me an example.

 

I don't give a damn about puro, but I'm not going to knock a guy because they like it or go to another forum and make fun of them because they do.

 

You'd have a better case if the people you're defending didn't behave that way constantly.

 

They do say that, but in Meph's case, he starts saying those things after somebody else would say something to him. They bait each other.

 

He seems to have no problem getting "baited" by just about everyone who disagrees with him. It's juvenile, and there's no excuse for it.

 

I'm going to use an example.

 

If you call me a "Russo mark" or "not a fan of wrestling", then naturally like most will do in the heat of the moment, I would response with something like "all you want is for American wrestling to become more like puro." All that will spark is name calling whenever a post is made by either guy.

 

It takes two to tango. Someone who gets "baited" into a flame war is just as guilty as the joker who started it.

 

That's why I hardly post is any of our wrestling forums anymore. Nobody can respect others views.

 

I'd respect your view if you had some evidence to back it up, just as I would resepct Marty and Meph if they could do the same. But they seem more content going to mud-slinging wars at the sight of anyone trying to hurt the Lord and Savior of all Wrestling Purity, Vince Russo.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

All Russo-bashing aside, does anyone know where bps21 is on this? This was originally directed at him and it's a bit of a waste if he never shows up to defend his side.

[Guest bob_barron]

Send him a pm Ricky

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Yeah, I guess I should. I haven't seem him around recently, so he's probably got too much work to be writing lengthy defense pieces on here.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Ok now that I have become aware of this thread I'll try to answer some of the original points first and then work my way down.

 

First of all, on ECW. I am in complete agreement that a company must listen to their fans in order to be successful. The whole last piece I wrote on the current WWE and their failure was about their inabilty to give the fans what they want. My thought on ECW was that they listened to their fans to a fault. There was a time when ECW was something completely different from what you'd see on WCW or WWF at the time. Then 4 years went by and not only was WWF more proggressive in their company but ECW was still doing the same things from 4 years earlier with little to no progression. The formula worked for the fans that they had, but it never appealed to any kind of audience they were able to grow, especially after WWF finally adapted to the changing trend of fan wants with the Attitude era.

 

 

I'd say your completely right about the ECW mutant thing, and my only thought was that since I consider myself someone who could be an ECW mutant I felt a large part of that was the way in which ECW treated the wall between the product and their fans. There is no question which of the big three was the most fun to go to see live (I'm not talking about quality of matches, mind you) and that was ECW who not only delivered what I as a fan wanted more often than not, but took an active role in getting the live audience into everything that was going on in the ring. It just felt less staged, if you know what I mean.

 

 

Heyman definitely saved things too long back then (kind of odd that he now gives away Benoit/Angle several times (in various different incarnations) on free tv and then tries to sell it at two ppvs at the same time). Even though RVD never won the ECW title he was pretty much the big star of the promotion for the second half of his TV title reign.

 

 

On to WCW. The lasting impressions that this company will leave with me are Hogan taking vacations while champion and Goldberg taking months off with whatever injury was life threatening at the time. If WWE thought it was tough when Austin walked out...WCW had to have it worse because after a point Goldberg and his popularity was the only thing they had going for them. Now try explaining to all the people on Nitro chanting Goldberg that he has blister or whatever life threatening disease he couldn't work through. I remember Goldberg sitting on the Dennis Miller Live show and explaining how he couldn't work because he was hurt, and then when asked when he'd be back he just couldn't have cared any less. He's getting paid after all.

 

On the JJ/Booker thing. JJ never gained credability in WCW, and Booker won the title by beating him. I wasn't going so much into Booker getting wins or trading titles with guys like Nash later, more that Russo's little worked shoot with Hogan left him elavating a guy over a guy who never got elavated.

 

 

 

On the WWE: I think you got that backwards. I wasn't saying the only way to be successful is to do what you want...quite the opposite. the Austin era proves that not to be true. My point was pre-Austin era Vince pretty much DID do whatever he wanted. It worked for a long time with Hogan, and then they went through a long phase of doing nothing right, including the Nash/Mabel disaster. Yes Undertaker got a face reaction and got turned face...but how many years later did he finally win back the title as the face that was so over in 1992? Five years? I wholeheartedly agree that you have to listen to fans and what they want. I only wrote that opening paragraph to contrast it to how things were after Vince had to start listening.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Now onto the more meaty issue about Russo.

 

Putting a non wrestler in a major roll is nothing new. The McMahons in WWE, and Bischoff and even Russo in WCW did it too.

 

Mostly for pointless reasons.

 

Now...I don't think Vince Russo is making himself the focus of the show. I honestly don't. I think he's making the storyline he represents the focus of the show, which is the point.

 

I'm going to post my next preview sometime late tonigh/early tomorrow and I will go into an aspect of this in detail...since that was my next planned rant anyway.

 

Yes Russo is on the show alot. But the problem then would lie in the angle IMO and not his presence on screen.

 

I don't think that Russo is the worst aspect of the S.E.X. storyline by far. B.G. James and the Harris boys are the major problem with the S.E.X. storyline. They are the anchor that takes teh idea of "the evolution" that the S.E.X. supposedly represents totally unbeleivable. I can buy Raven in that roll, mainly on the strenght of his promos, in fact I thought he did a fine job establishing that last week at the opening of the show. If S.E.X. was Raven, Triple X, Sanders and even Siaki and Flair, talent be damned I could totally buy them as the next evolution in pro wrestling that is challenging the tradition of the NWA name. That makes sense to me. Russo leading it makes sense to me too. James and Harris boys are far too washed up to represent that though.

 

That's my main problem with that.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

"Ok now that I have become aware of this thread I'll try to answer some of the original points first and then work my way down."

 

Appologies for piling it up without you knowing about it. I should have sent you a message the second I created it.

 

"My thought on ECW was that they listened to their fans to a fault. There was a time when ECW was something completely different from what you'd see on WCW or WWF at the time. Then 4 years went by and not only was WWF more proggressive in their company but ECW was still doing the same things from 4 years earlier with little to no progression. The formula worked for the fans that they had, but it never appealed to any kind of audience they were able to grow, especially after WWF finally adapted to the changing trend of fan wants with the Attitude era."

 

*nod*

 

They were listening to the wrong fans. The long-time followers still popped for Sandman, New Jack, and all that stuff, but they never moved past hardcore and it turned into a dead-end. If they wanted to comptete at a national level, they should have moved past that niche and created a product that could serve as both an alternative without being redundant and minor-leage the way ECW was when they went national.

 

"I'd say your completely right about the ECW mutant thing, and my only thought was that since I consider myself someone who could be an ECW mutant I felt a large part of that was the way in which ECW treated the wall between the product and their fans."

 

Yeah, ECW always put itself over as the hardest working locker room, in it for the fans, yadda yadda, but at the end of the day all that jive Paul and Co. were singing ended up being fraud. When the money didn't suite them, they all left for greener pastures, at some point or another.

 

"There is no question which of the big three was the most fun to go to see live (I'm not talking about quality of matches, mind you) and that was ECW who not only delivered what I as a fan wanted more often than not, but took an active role in getting the live audience into everything that was going on in the ring. It just felt less staged, if you know what I mean."

 

I'm not sure I do know what you mean. Yeah, I'm sure it was always a fun atmosphere at the Bingo Hall, being able to yell at the wrestlers and have them hear you, making up funny chants, telling the women to take their tops off, ect. but that homely atmosphere was probably what appealed to you and many others. Obscure entertainment that not many know about that makes the few who are a part of it feel special and "above" the normal wrestling fans.

 

If ECW had, lets say, become #1, and had moved up to WWF-level production values, the whole nine yards, do you think it would have kept that appeal for you?

 

"Heyman definitely saved things too long back then (kind of odd that he now gives away Benoit/Angle several times (in various different incarnations) on free tv and then tries to sell it at two ppvs at the same time)."

 

Nah, he didn't save things too long, he just tried to milk things too much. The Benoit/Angle stuff is just like the RVD/Lynn stuff, or the Tajiri/Super Crazy stuff, or anyone pairing that the fans responded well to. He would put them together a thousand times, be it free TV or on pay per view, before picking up and moving on. That reflects perfectly in his booking of Angle/Benoit, the Guererros, and Edge/Mysterio, which he was never able to blow off in any meaningfull way and milked until it had lost its appeal.

 

"On to WCW. The lasting impressions that this company will leave with me are Hogan taking vacations while champion and Goldberg taking months off with whatever injury was life threatening at the time."

 

Goldberg only had one serious injury and that was his arm, I believe. Besides that I think he was never out for any prolonged period of time.

 

"If WWE thought it was tough when Austin walked out...WCW had to have it worse because after a point Goldberg and his popularity was the only thing they had going for them."

 

I'd say even that was a bit shaky. Goldberg was always over to some degree, but after The Job he never really recovered.

 

"I remember Goldberg sitting on the Dennis Miller Live show and explaining how he couldn't work because he was hurt, and then when asked when he'd be back he just couldn't have cared any less. He's getting paid after all."

 

Yeah, that's pretty disheartening to hear, but I'm not sure that you can make a case against him as far as not being around enough. The injury kept him out and it was a really stupid injury to start with, but otherwise I think he was always around in some form.

 

Not that it really helped any once his drawing power was destroyed.

 

"JJ never gained credability in WCW, and Booker won the title by beating him. I wasn't going so much into Booker getting wins or trading titles with guys like Nash later, more that Russo's little worked shoot with Hogan left him elavating a guy over a guy who never got elavated."

 

Part of the reason Jarrett never got any kind of momentum as champion was because Russo had him dropping the title to someone one week, regaining it the next, and then repeating the process over again.

 

So in affect, by destroying the credibility of both the champion and the championship, Russo created a situation where even "doing the right thing" didn't matter because he had already made it clear to the WCW fans that the title belt was "just a prop" to him.

 

"On the WWE: I think you got that backwards. I wasn't saying the only way to be successful is to do what you want...quite the opposite. the Austin era proves that not to be true."

 

Sorry I misunderstood, then.

 

"My point was pre-Austin era Vince pretty much DID do whatever he wanted. It worked for a long time with Hogan, and then they went through a long phase of doing nothing right, including the Nash/Mabel disaster. Yes Undertaker got a face reaction and got turned face...but how many years later did he finally win back the title as the face that was so over in 1992? Five years?"

 

I still think it's a case of listening to what the fans wanted, but I see your point.

 

"I wholeheartedly agree that you have to listen to fans and what they want. I only wrote that opening paragraph to contrast it to how things were after Vince had to start listening."

 

Alright then. I feel stupid, but at least we cleared that up.

 

"Putting a non wrestler in a major roll is nothing new. The McMahons in WWE, and Bischoff and even Russo in WCW did it too."

 

Russo makes camera hogs like the MchMahons and Bischoff look underexposed and reserved. He makes himself the focus of every show, whether he's brawling with the former world champion or pretending to be tougher than the entire promotion, Russo makes himself the star.

 

That doesn't justify anything that the MchMahons do, but trying to defend Russo using them doesn't work.

 

"Now...I don't think Vince Russo is making himself the focus of the show. I honestly don't."

 

Then why does everyone in the promotion want to (i) join him or (ii) get revenge on him? The Road Wariors, from the second they entered the promotion, made it clear that Russo was their prime target. Nevermind they could use Hawlk and Animal to build up another tag team like the WWF did. Nah, not when we've got Russo to focus on.

 

The main focus of the show is Russo and his shoot interviews. Everything else is either "unimportant" or a backdrop for Russo's evil schemes to play out in.

 

"Yes Russo is on the show alot. But the problem then would lie in the angle IMO and not his presence on screen."

 

If the angle revolves around Russo being on screen all the time, then yes, it's a problem. Russo being in charge of the company is the biggest problem of all, though. The angle and his constant presence on the show are just the inevitable results of him being in power.

 

"I don't think that Russo is the worst aspect of the S.E.X. storyline by far. B.G. James and the Harris boys are the major problem with the S.E.X. storyline. They are the anchor that takes teh idea of "the evolution" that the S.E.X. supposedly represents totally unbeleivable. I can buy Raven in that roll, mainly on the strenght of his promos, in fact I thought he did a fine job establishing that last week at the opening of the show. If S.E.X. was Raven, Triple X, Sanders and even Siaki and Flair, talent be damned I could totally buy them as the next evolution in pro wrestling that is challenging the tradition of the NWA name. That makes sense to me. Russo leading it makes sense to me too. James and Harris boys are far too washed up to represent that though."

 

Let's not forget the RnR Express and Nikita are supposedly part of an "anti-tradition" group, when both haven't been hot talents since Reagan was President.

 

The entire concept is ridiculous. Instead of re-hashing the New Blood angle with even less star power, why not just create a decent product that fans can get into? Instead of building a fued around who the best booker in the world is, or who killed WCW, why not book a normal storyline that actually focuses on things the fans care about, like wrestling? Russo is in charge of a wrestling promotion, you know.

 

From the reports I've heard, all of the shoot promos Russo has done have gotten zero reaction from the crowds, while the wrestling is actually getting them pumped up.

 

Why not give the fans what they're interested in, as opposed to telling them they should like something else? How is it logical to demand that fans of a certain genre pay you to see something totally different? It makes no sense, and it's the reason why Russo is a worthless booker.