Yuna_Firerose 0 Report post Posted February 1, 2003 Okay, I was reading DDP's book and in it, he mentions that the Diamond Cutter, along with the SC Stunner, are both different versions of the "Ace Crusher". Hmmm...but isn't the Twist of Fate also a version of it? And wasn't it Johnny Ace that wants to turn Matt face? I doubt anyone can make sense of that....just my random thoughts. Ace apparently feels that Matt is still getting face heat from teenage girls and will never get true heel heat. As a chick, I find this to be complete bullshit. Sooo, none of the heels can be considered "hottys"? Yeah, that makes sense... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest TheZsaszHorsemen Report post Posted February 1, 2003 Couple points: 1. No the Twist of Fate is simalar but not the same 2. Ace is wrong. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yuna_Firerose 0 Report post Posted February 1, 2003 2. Ace is wrong. Agreed. Just because a heel is liked for his looks, doesn't mean he should be a face. Yeah, I definately agree on that point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CoreyLazarus416 Report post Posted February 1, 2003 The Twist Of Fate IS an Ace Crusher variation. It's a front-facelock twisted into an Ace Crusher. And I DO find that to be odd, in a semi-ironic sense. Matt uses an Ace Crusher for a finisher, and the inventor of the move, Johnny Ace, wants to hold him down OR turn him face because he doesn't understand that teenage girls don't like Mattitude... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yuna_Firerose 0 Report post Posted February 1, 2003 Heh...someone made sense out of my random randomness. Okay, that's just scary. Wait...I know a wrestling move! Whoah...I'm learning! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest AndrewTS Report post Posted February 1, 2003 The Twist of Fate, even if it ends like an Ace Crusher, obviously is inspired by the Diamond Cutter. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest SP-1 Report post Posted February 1, 2003 Wow. So in one company we have The Stunner, the Buh Buh Cutter, AND Mattitude's Twist of Fate. Methinks Vince just hasn't figured this out yet. Though, I haven't seen Buh Buh use it in a while. As for this topic at hand, I fail to understand how they can determine who is popping what for Matt. I mean, he has the coolest entrance on SD!, I can understand the teenies seeing him as attractive and all, AND he puts on pretty sweet matches and plays a comedic heel really well. I don't see where it can be construed as not being credible heat. Seems to be he probably gets cheers/boos from all over the spectrum. And if they're following the logic of him getting a pop because of cheap heat, there's several wrestlers that need to be depushed far before him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Danny Dubya v 2.0 Report post Posted February 1, 2003 What kind of Ace Crusher does Ron Killings use in TNA? I've never seen it nor read a description of it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Notorious CRD Report post Posted February 1, 2003 The Truth or Consequences is kind of like a running Ace Crusher. He applies the 3/4 facelock, takes a couple steps, and then drives them down. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Tim Cooke Report post Posted February 1, 2003 The Ace Crusher is the original version of the "Diamond Cutter" that DDP made popular. I think I remember seeing ACe use it as early as 1991 in All Japan but could be wrong. Tim Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CoreyLazarus416 Report post Posted February 1, 2003 The Truth Or Consequences (Ron Killings's Ace Crusher) is AWFUL looking. The dude has some pretty nifty looking moves (his side kick and scissors kick are fucking BEAUTIFUL, if only because he adds that corkcsrew as he falls down), and his finishers are pretty lame. But, anyways, back to Ace... I find it funny that Hardy gets less face pops than KURT ANGLE and Ace is complaining about Hardy... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dace59 Report post Posted February 1, 2003 Ace Crusher. Invented by Steven Regal (around 90/91 I think) Went for a snapmare, the person taking it messed up, and landed on their front behind Regal. An Inverted Neckbreaker. All Inverted Neckbreakers are Ace Crusher. And Vice Versa. DDP has used the TOF before, just as a front facelock swung into a Diamond Cutter. It's Regal's move. Not Aces. Ace just made it popular. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Goodear Report post Posted February 1, 2003 Wouldn't Regal have to actually use the move to make it his? I've watches Regal since his WCW debut and I've never, ever seen him use an Ace Crusher. That's sort of like calling the jackhammer Dean Malenko's move or something. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dace59 Report post Posted February 1, 2003 For a move to be someone's, they must have been the first to do it, and normally hence they have invented it. Regal was the first person to do an Inverted Neckbreaker. It was a mess up, but it was the Inverted Neckbreaker that's known and used today. His move. The Jackhammer was invented back in 81 by some Joshi star, as you know of course. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CoreyLazarus416 Report post Posted February 1, 2003 But I can buy a guitar and use it, thus making it mine. I never invented the guitar, but I still have my own. Other people have the same type, but this one is mine because I use it. Dace, possession (when it comes to moves) is whoever made the move popular first. Much like people were using the DDT before Roberts, but Roberts made it popular, so therefore the DDT is "his" move. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dace59 Report post Posted February 1, 2003 Moves are not physical objects, guitars are. It's not really a passible argument. However, I have said before <Insert name here>'s <insert move here> Which means I've done the same point you make. I'd still say inventing the move makes it your, but still. So, that sort of invaildates my point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EL DANDY~! 0 Report post Posted February 1, 2003 Reason the Ace Crusher is the Ace Crusher is because Ace popularized the move. Hardy should just start doing a regular Ace Crusher instead of the Twist of Fate as a big "FUCK YOU!" to Ace. On the subject of the Stunner, it truly is that, a variation. In fact, in the Stunner's prime, it looked absolutely MARVELOUS. The Diamond Cutter was so sloppy until DDP realized he could *snap* it off. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dace59 Report post Posted February 1, 2003 DDP's float over Diamond Cutter (ala early Rock float over DDT) on (Hennign was it?) was just brillant. I did say Ace made it popular. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 1, 2003 I remember that stuff like "What angle will DDP hit the Diamond Cutter from!?" that actually made me sit down and watch his matches because I was wondering if he'd do something innovative with it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dace59 Report post Posted February 1, 2003 DDP did almost as many versions as Ace did. Ace did more move versions, DDP did more spot versions I guess. And I hope no one asks for a list, there are HUNDREDS of Ace Crusher verations. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EL DANDY~! 0 Report post Posted February 1, 2003 Dama, DDP could hit it from anywhere. You're right. It was amazing to see where he'd hit it from sometimes...absolutely crazy... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest AndrewisyourHero Report post Posted February 1, 2003 DDP had some awesome variations..I remember one time he was wrestling some big fat due..Roadblock I think it was, and he jumped from the second rope from behind and hit the move. And there was the toss up to DC on sickboy from thunder. To review, Mattitude > Ace, and DDP had a swank finish Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Downhome Report post Posted February 1, 2003 My favorite one was one that DDP did to Eddy once in WCW. Eddy was on DDP's shoulder, back down, DDP then flipped him in mid air and came right down into the Cutter, it was beautiful. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest AndrewTS Report post Posted February 1, 2003 The technical name for a Fame Asser/Rocker Dropper is "Guillotine Ace Crusher," since it combines an Ace Crusher with a Guillotine (which is the Japanese name for ANY leg drop), and was invented by Ace, but not popularized in the States until the Rockers used it. Does that count as a "variation?" Austin's is a variation, but he falls on his ass instead of his back--and it looks far better in my opinion than a normal Crusher. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dace59 Report post Posted February 1, 2003 The move DDP did to Eddie was Yokusoa (sp?) Cutter. Canandian Backbreaker to Cutter. Some oen from T-Mon uses it. Stunner = Seated Inverted Neckbreaker, just a nice simple seated Cutter. Fame Asser =/= Rocker Dropper. They are two different moves. And the Rocker Drop is not an Ace Crusher. Rocker Drop: One of opps. arms in arm wring, leg over drops head, jump, drive drops face to mat with one leg over neck. Other leg does nothing. FameAsser: Arms do nothing on either man. One leg over back of head. Jump, bring other leg up under neck, scissoring neck (THIS is the Gulliotine part) Drive opps. faces to mat with Legs scissored around neck. Gulliotine comes from a leg drop, when the opps throat lies across something (Like the Exiction divice, the Gulliotine) In the case of the Gulliotine Ace Crusher, this is the attackers other leg. The Rocker Drop does not have this. But yes, a Gulliotine is a Japanese term for a leg drop. But, when the Gulliotine is a term to a part of a move (Eg Double Underhook, Inverted) it means what I desced above. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Downhome Report post Posted February 1, 2003 I wish I could find the web site I'm thinking of, but I seem to have lost it. It used to list virtually almost any move, and what seemed like every variation of every type of move, with video's for most of them. Anyone got any idea where that web site ran off to? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dace59 Report post Posted February 1, 2003 Hopefully straight to hell. You will be thinking of the BBoWM, or one of it's spin offs. These sights are WRONG. Look, they confuse a hammer lock with putting you arm across some ones through. Even with all the effort put into them, they arent any good. And they miss LOADS of moves. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Downhome Report post Posted February 1, 2003 Hopefully straight to hell. You will be thinking of the BBoWM, or one of it's spin offs. These sights are WRONG. Look, they confuse a hammer lock with putting you arm across some ones through. Even with all the effort put into them, they arent any good. And they miss LOADS of moves. The one I am talking about wasn't perfect, but it didn't have nearly the mistakes that you are describing. It was the best one I ever saw, it was actually pretty good. You aren't thinking of "Yokosuka Cutter" are you? Or is that something totally different? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dace59 Report post Posted February 1, 2003 Yes I am thinking of the Yokosuka Cutter that DDP did. I've seen a lot of sights, and none have been good. Can you remember anything about the site? Name, lay out, content of media, etc? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Downhome Report post Posted February 1, 2003 Yes I am thinking of the Yokosuka Cutter that DDP did. I've seen a lot of sights, and none have been good. Can you remember anything about the site? Name, lay out, content of media, etc? I don't remember anything about it other than it was the best one I'd ever seen, with a lot of video's and the such. I actually found it over at one of the main Puroresu sites either as a link, or on one of the message boards. That's all I remember, sorry. If I re-find it, I'll post it here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
