How will the Montreal crowd react to HBK?

[Guest Shanghai Kid 2003]

Ugh..how was Shawn the second worst drawing champ? I remember Shawn being the biggest drawing champ since Hulk Hogan....bigger than Warrior, bigger than Hart, bigger than Diesel, bigger than Yoko...

 

and how were his mic skills bad? The problem with that is, HBK has always been better as a heel. As a face, his mic skills are simply outdated.

[Guest bob_barron]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

 

Claiming Shawn drew as a champ. NOW that's comedy.

 

I can dig up the thread for you but Tim Cooke posted an excellent article that showed how a little draw Shawn was

[Guest Shanghai Kid 2003]

I know like towards the end of his run he wasn't drawing, but im talking about his first couple months, and his whole 95-early 96 run as a face.

 

I remember readin an article from Meltzer or somebody, that said Shawn was the biggest drawing champ/face since Hogan.

 

Besides, you really have to blame bad booking and backstage politics, Shawn was putting out quality feuds/matches.

[Guest AndrewTS]

HBK wasn't the second lowest drawing champion...I believe he was third.

 

Above Sid (second worst) and Nash (THE worst).

[Guest bob_barron]

Shawn didn't become till Wrestlemania in 96.

 

Don't just pass the blame. The fans did not care for Shawn Michaels as champion

[Guest Shanghai Kid 2003]

What im saying is, nobody in the mid 90's really drew as a champion until Stone Cold, and HBK was a great heel champ during his DX run.

 

Nobody is passing the blame, but everybody suddenly pisses on HBK's legacy like he never had any mic skills, never was popular, the fans didn't care for him blah blah blah. HBK in 95 was like where RVD is now, except more popular. So if RVD becomes champ, will the fans care, I don't think so.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

And the best drawing champ since Hogan? Well after Hogan lost it Flair had it..he drew well and then Savage had it and he was a draw in those days. So since Hogan there's 2 people right there that drew.

I actually heard he drew worse than Diesel. But I'm probably wrong b/c I don't know how that's possible.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

Nash sunk ratings further based on what they were with Bret as champ, but Michaels had lower ratings overall. Sid was the worst.

 

I know like towards the end of his run he wasn't drawing, but im talking about his first couple months, and his whole 95-early 96 run as a face.

 

This is completely false. Michaels was drawing half what Bret Hart did during his 1995-1996 winter run, even at the beginning of his reign. We went through this plenty of times on this board before. The numbers show that Michaels was the worst drawing champ, with the exception of Sid. The one good buyrate he drew was Wrestlemania XIV, which can be attributed to Austin/Tyson. Austin could have been facing Kurrgan in the main event that night and got the same rating.

[Guest Shanghai Kid 2003]

My bad than, I just remember reading some article where Meltzer or somebody said that Shawn was the biggest draw since Hogan. I could of easily been wrong though.

 

All I can say in defense of Shawn is, that the whole product of the WWF sucked hard in 95-96.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

What im saying is, nobody in the mid 90's really drew as a champion until Stone Cold, and HBK was a great heel champ during his DX run.

 

Nobody is passing the blame, but everybody suddenly pisses on HBK's legacy like he never had any mic skills, never was popular, the fans didn't care for him blah blah blah. HBK in 95 was like where RVD is now, except more popular. So if RVD becomes champ, will the fans care, I don't think so.

Not true. Flair, Savage, Yoko & Bret Hart all drew well as champ. Bret even brought up ratings and buyrates considerably after the horrific Diesel run, but not as high as 1994 levels. 1997 wasn't very good ratings wise with Taker & Bret as champs, but they were higher than a year earlier, and later that year with Shawn until the Wrestlemania buildup started. Austin was the reason for that.

[Guest Choken One]

Nash sunk ratings further based on what they were with Bret as champ, but Michaels had lower ratings overall. Sid was the worst.

 

I know like towards the end of his run he wasn't drawing, but im talking about his first couple months, and his whole 95-early 96 run as a face.

 

This is completely false. Michaels was drawing half what Bret Hart did during his 1995-1996 winter run, even at the beginning of his reign. We went through this plenty of times on this board before. The numbers show that Michaels was the worst drawing champ, with the exception of Sid. The one good buyrate he drew was Wrestlemania XIV, which can be attributed to Austin/Tyson. Austin could have been facing Kurrgan in the main event that night and got the same rating.

I am not saying that HBK was the big draw in WMXV but let's be realistic...HBK was a better image for WWF to have then Like Bam Bam two years prior ya know...

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

For the record, I think Shawn could have done well in 1995 as champ, but they waited too late, much like the situation RVD is facing now. 1995 was the peak year of Shawn's career as far as overness.

[Guest Choken One]

I'll agree with you on that there Ramsus...They dycked around with HBK to long...but than again...When could they have gone with HBK getting the title? Series in Hart's place?

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

I'll agree with you on that there Ramsus...They dycked around with HBK to long...but than again...When could they have gone with HBK getting the title? Series in Hart's place?

I'm not even sure about then. I would have had him kill Diesel clean at Wrestlemania XI.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

And what's with this pissing on Shawn's legacy? I don't really see anybody pissing on it. We're giving facts

-he drew shitty

-he was a prima donna that threw fits when he didn't get his way

-he should be a man and put over a new start these days

-he shouldn't be on TV if he's not going to wrestle reguarly

 

Oh and before you accuse me of being a Shawn Hater. I was probably one of his biggest fans in 1995-97. Hell I wanted him to return. Unfortunately he returned 4 years after I cared.

[Guest AndrewTS]

I could be wrong, but wasn't WMXIV the ONLY time HBK ever dropped a belt in the ring as a singles wrestler in WWF? And things like "losing his smile" probably turned a lot of people sour on Shawn.

 

Great wrestler, shitty human being. And not much of a draw...

 

However, I never understood why Vince pushed him so heavily--he isn't and wasn't a hoss ever...

[Guest Choken One]

HBK is and still is very manipulative...Bret wasn't.

[Guest Austin3164life]

When you are the WWF World Champion and you are facing an ultra-heel at a fall pay per view, and you are supposed to be the top face, but 75% of the crowd boos you, I think that shows you aren't a drawing champion. Even Shawn had pissed off looks in his face whenever they booed him.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

I could be wrong, but wasn't WMXIV the ONLY time HBK ever dropped a belt in the ring as a singles wrestler in WWF? And things like "losing his smile" probably turned a lot of people sour on Shawn.

 

Great wrestler, shitty human being. And not much of a draw...

 

However, I never understood why Vince pushed him so heavily--he isn't and wasn't a hoss ever...

No. He dropped his first WWF Title to Sid at MSG.

[Guest Shanghai Kid 2003]

So in closing-

 

Shawn is

 

Wrestling- Positive

 

Everything else known to man- Negative.

 

Alright, we can get back to the original topic now.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Well WM14 was the only time he's dropped it cleanly.

[Guest Brian]

And just barely.

[Guest Choken One]

Wasn't Surser 96 an No DQ match anyways...so thus it WAS clean.

[Guest BorneAgain]

Well WM14 was the only time he's dropped it cleanly.

Was the IC title loss to Jannety clean, because that predates all these title changes.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

Well WM14 was the only time he's dropped it cleanly.

Was the IC title loss to Jannety clean, because that predates all these title changes.

No. Perfect interfered.

[Guest BorneAgain]

Well WM14 was the only time he's dropped it cleanly.

Was the IC title loss to Jannety clean, because that predates all these title changes.

No. Perfect interfered.

ah, I see, thanks for the info.

[Guest art_vandelay]

Clarify for me, do you guys only consider a "drop" to be the loss of a title only to un-over wrestlers? Because he dropped the Raw Championship to his best friend at Armageddon.

[Guest AndrewTS]

Clarify for me, do you guys only consider a "drop" to be the loss of a title only to un-over wrestlers? Because he dropped the Raw Championship to his best friend at Armageddon.

I would prefer not to count his 2002 matches as being part of his career.

[Guest BorneAgain]

Clarify for me, do you guys only consider a "drop" to be the loss of a title only to un-over wrestlers? Because he dropped the Raw Championship to his best friend at Armageddon.

I would prefer not to count his 2002 matches as being part of his career.

Or the Raw Championship as a credible title for that matter.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

I think they were still trying to make Sid look dirty in that match and look like he had to "cheat" to beat HBK. He hit Jose with the camera I believe and he went out to check on him and Sid took that camera and hit Shawn in the back. Thus making it look like Sid had to sneak up on HBK to beat him.