Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Ok, so we all know that HBK is a horrible person, that he is the king of backstage poltics, and that he's the cause for world hunger. So was he ever that good of a wrestler? (Sadly, I don't think anybody is going to understand this thread). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CoreyLazarus416 Report post Posted February 20, 2003 To me, a good wrestler means you can pull off good, classic matches that can be appreciated by both smarks AND marks. HBK has done this. By my logic, HBK was a good wrestler. But if you want to go deeper than that and pick out things like psychology, selling, carrying, etc., then I'm not really going to debate that as I'm not one to fully understand such things like others here at TSM are. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 I thought HBK was the cause of AIDS in africa, and that HHH was the cause for world hunger... And isn't Taker the cause of dead puppy dogs? (did I get it right?) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CoreyLazarus416 Report post Posted February 20, 2003 No, 'Taker caused global warming. KEVIN NASH is the reason for dead puppy dogs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anglesault Report post Posted February 20, 2003 ::Reads title:: yes. ::Leaves thread to complain about Brock/Angle.:: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest JMA Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Yes. Shawn Michaels was truly a great wrestler. He could make anyone look good in the ring. But he wasn't really a good person, per say. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 He was good at wrestling a spotty flashy style. That's all I'll say. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anglesault Report post Posted February 20, 2003 No, 'Taker caused global warming. KEVIN NASH is the reason for dead puppy dogs. X-Pac is the reason why we don't have enough oil. It all goes into his hair. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest razazteca Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Shawn Micheals was a good wrestler, even though I dislike the HBK character, I must respect the good matches that he has had during his prime. Was very good in the gimmick matches as he was involved in nearly every type of match WWF used to promote a PPV. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 HBK = Glorified Cruiserweight. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Some Guy Report post Posted February 20, 2003 HBK = Glorified Cruiserweight. Maybe so, but who glorifies the cruiserwerights more than the Smarks? HBK was great in the ring (94-97 in particular). He was responsible for carrying more guys to great matches than anybody except Ric Flair in the last decade or two in AMerica. Nash, Sid, Taker, ect... He had great matches with everybody and beat the ever living shit out of himself in the process. However he is as a person should not reflect anyone's opinion of his ring work. Even Bret Hart cedes that Shawn was great in the ring, to say otherwise would make him look stupid. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 But how did Shawn make those matches good? He got his ass kicked. What Shawn gave his matches is nothing really special that any cruiserweight couldn't do. The only difference is that the Heavies sold for him and he was actually pushed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Although I was right in that nobody understood this thread, and nobody noticed my sarcasm, i'll just play along and give my opinion. HBK is a great wrestler, no matter what you say about him, nothing will take away from his wrestling abilities. The End. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest razazteca Report post Posted February 20, 2003 HBK sold for RVD on the Raw match they had weeks ago. If Shawn was not a wrestler he would be selling used cars. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 What was the point? That being a great wrestler is the only thing that is important? If so, I think everyone got that and no sold it cause it's wrong. Shawns backstage politics effected the product. What is REALLY interesting is that shawns dickery actually inadvertantly HELPED the company. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Although I was right in that nobody understood this thread, and nobody noticed my sarcasm, i'll just play along and give my opinion. HBK is a great wrestler, no matter what you say about him, nothing will take away from his wrestling abilities. The End. Yeah it's not the end. HBK was a great seller and bump machine. He was not persay a great wrestler. He was flashy in the ring and made his opponents look good in the process. But he wasn't this god like wrestler that everyone claims he was. He's more like a less flashy RVD. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dangerous A Report post Posted February 20, 2003 While Shawn is crucified by the IWC for his antics and backstage politics, he was one of the top workers in the business in the 90's. No one can deny him that. His selling and timing were his biggest strengths. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 RVD has a larger movelist. HBK was pretty limited in that area - not that it really matters so much if you can use those moves properly in a match; give it meaning and crap like that. I am not a huge HBK expert, but I don't believe he did that. If you really break down an HBK match, how much substance is there? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Well there's Shawn bumping and selling. Then making a big comeback at the end and vanquishing his enemy with the superkick. Kinda like Hogan but faster. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 No Ravishing, that wasn't the point, good observation though. And no, HBK was a lot better than RVD is, that's pretty obvious. As far as substance goes, look at HIAC 1, theirs your substance. Flashy yes, but he carried some dead wieght in the ring, let's not forget, he didn't have chris benoit, Kurt Angle, and Edge to have great matches with. He had Diesel, Undertaker, Sid, Vader, and occasionaly Bret Hart or Stone Cold. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 But those matches weren't great matches. They were the big guy tossing Shawn around. He basically tossed himself around the ring for these guys. Then at the end he made his Hogan-esque comeback. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Respect The 'Taker Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Shanhai, wern't you the guy telling me I was wrong for thinking Shawn was a bad person? ...I won't comment any further. Shawn the wrestler is simply the greatest i have ever seen, hands down. However, i never saw Flair in his prime, or any of the mega-stars over in Japan, so it doesn't say much in terms of 'greatest wrestler ever', but to me, he always out-shined everything around him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 There was substance there? He was getting his ass kicked - as always. But I will give it another look if you really want me to, ok? I personally didn't say he was better than RVD, I just said that RVD had a larger movelist. Which is true, HBK was limited in that regard. A backdrop, a Piledriver, and the Superkick - not that impressive a list of finishers. Again, all of HBK's "Carry jobs" were him getting tossed around the ring. Watch his match with Nash at WM 11, that's the classic example of HBK being a ragdoll for the big guy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Shawn the greatest ever? I don't even need to pull wrestlers from Japan to counter that. Benoit, Guerrerro, Austin, Jericho, and Angle far outclass him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 That's Shanghai actually, and yes I was telling you that you shouldn't be so judgemental on a person that you don't even know. Wow, looks as if some people ARE actually questioning Shawns wrestling ability. As if, we've pissed on the rest of his career, so let's find something bad about his wrestling too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 We aren't pissing on anything. Just because you're an HBK mark doesn't mean you have to get all defensive when someone presents you with this information. We aren't making this up and pulling it out of our asses. It's pretty much true. Shawn Michaels was a horrible person and all of his great wrestling ability was him bumping. Nobody's pissing on a legacy. But if you want me to I'll gladly do it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Um, Shawn has more moves than a backdrop, Piledriver, and Superkick. Have you ever seen a Shawn Micheals match? RVD has one finisher right now, and like two set up moves, Shawn had top rope axe handle, Moonsault, Elbow drop, and a couple of others, and those were just his end of the match setup to the finisher movies. And I think saying that Jericho is better than Shawn in his prime is questionable. Hell i'd say everybody on your list is questionable except Benoit. Mighty, i'm not a HBK mark, i'm a fan. Just like most of us here are just Jericho "fans". Please, proceed with pissing on his legacy, so we can have one of our arguments that are starting to come rapidly and naturally. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 We don't really have to 'find' anything - it's pretty much well out there to see. Shawn was a good wrestler and a great bumper, but by no means was he the 'greatest wrestler ever' or anywhere near that. He was charismatic and athletic, he could get his ass kicked really really well. That's his legacy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 I agree. That's his legacy. Nothing more, and nothing less. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 And a really nice tope... I never said he did anything beyond 3 moves, I just said that his finishers were pretty weak. And they were. So was the rest of his offense, a couple of pedestrian cruiserweight moves were the highlight. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
