Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Yeah Illusion. It was partially entertaining. But the debate here is if Shawn was a good worker and i'm saying he wasn't. And I am more entertained by a good wrestling match as opposed to a bump match. That's why I said that it was partially entertaining. Oh and I still stand by what I said about the Ironman match. That match was not entertaining at all. 55 minutes of rest holds is BORING. No matter who you are. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest SP-1 Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Then I bleed for you, Mighty. Because a refusal to accept change in people, especially because you don't believe in the God they do, must leave you in a stoic, uninteresting world. I'm out of this thread. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest SP-1 Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Well I'm me. And I liked 55 minutes of holds because I got the story. So your theory there is dead. out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Respect The 'Taker Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Seriously, this is a wrestling folder, not a religious one, religion has nothing to do with Shawn Michaels in-ring abilty, and discussing it will only end up offending people, and that shouldn't be allowed. Everyone has the right to believe what they want, but they don't need to force it upon anyone. Just a note to be respectful, that's all. And i understand your line of thought Mighty, there's nothing more awesome than watching Benoit rip it up with another opponent on his level such as Kurt Angle or Bret Hart, but that is not the only form of sports entertainment, and just because you arn't a technical genius like the aformentioned superstars, doesn't mean you cannot put on a show worth watching. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted February 20, 2003 I always Viewed Shawn as a Performer and he was one of the great ones at that... Do I put him at the level of Benoit, Eddy, Hart and Flair? No...Notice I didn't put Angle there...It's STILL too early to call him a god... Shawn won't make a Top Ten Wrestlers list but Should belong on a Top Ten entertaining performer list... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Gotta love Christians (btw, it doesn't really matter krist or christ, jesus didn't refer to himself as either) as it seems anyone who becomes born again is legitimately doing it and they cannot be questioned about it because the Lord is truth and cannot be wrong - but if they stray "well, nobodys perfect". Mmm, selectiveness... But this isn't a religious thread - it's an HBK one. HBK, the liar. HBK, the cheat. HBK, the con-man. HBK, the christian... Technical vs. Lucha, Traditional and Stoic vs. New and Exciting? I don't call an armbar and a sharpshooter with a tope and a moonsault in 60 minutes very reflective of the 'story'. I call it reaching. Given that HBK's "high flying lucha skills" didn't give him a win, nor did brets "Old school technical submissions"s and Bret didn't win any falls by being the cagey veteran, and Shawn didn't win any by using his youth to his advantage... Bret vs. Piper WM 8 - THERE is a match with story - watch it, learn it, love it. Then watch the Ironman match and see how it has none of it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CanadianChick Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Mighty, I can see where you are coming from when you are discussing most of your points, but saying Shawn wasn't a great or good worker is just absurd. C'mon, it's not just by chance that Shawn had great matches with 'Taker and Nash. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Mighty, let me ask you, what makes a match good? I want to hear in your opinion what makes a match good. What makes Jericho good? What makes a good wrestler good? Your not being too objective, I think mostly everybody will say that HBK is a good worker. I think that is more of a fact than an opinion. And how can you say that Jericho and Foley sell better than Shawn? You say that Shawn only bumped the whole match and then made a comeback, that's so false, he only did that when facing bigger guys and when he was a face. Look at his great matches as a heel, and it takes your whole point away. Hello Mighty Mcfly, great bumping can make a great match. Time to whip out my Shawn Micheals comp to really dive into this discussion. I'll start out by watching HBK vs Jeff Jarret. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 What story!?!? Please explain this story to me? Shawn gets on the mat and wrestles just as well as Bret? Yeah that would've been a fine story if IT HAD MEANT SOMETHING. But it meant nothing. And it's not just Michaels fault it's Hart's to. They sold nothing for each other thus turning it into 55 minutes of rest holds with 10 minutes of exciting action thereafter. If the whole match had been like the end then I may have liked it. Plus the no man gets a fall thing? That was also very stupid. It's an iron man match. You are supposed to go an hour beating each other and whoever can beat the other more in that hour wins. Yeah great story...neither man can beat the other. That would've been a good story actually.....if they HAD DONE SOMETHING IN THE MATCH. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Respect The 'Taker Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Excuse me for addressing a question aimed at someone else but what I've always noticed is when Foley takes a bump, he lays there as though he's been hit by a fuckin' bus and makes it all look real, which is what every good entertainer should be able to do with ease. Shawn can do this just as well, however his superman comeback's were inexcuseable and unrealistic. Wrestling is meant to be portrayed as authentic, and ridiculous crap like that, which is up there with Hogan's stuff, only makes the show look like the joke people think it is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Read my above post Mighty. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 What is a good wrestling match? -One with Story. A story that is reflected through moves, that has twists and turns, a climax, a resolution. -One with a variety of well-performed moves with meaning. -One that is able to get the crowd involved and leaves them satisfied. -Believability. You could also call this psychology. ..That's all I have for now. It's a pretty difficult question "what is good" when you think about it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 I will add: Effort and Pace. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Ravishing, if you use that scale, than the Ladder match and the Hell in a Cell match are true classics in every form, because they rate high in every category you listed. And HBK as a wrestler, ranks high in those categories. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Respect The 'Taker Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Looks about what i'd call a good match too, Rudo.. On an unrelated note, your post count is 1994...which now makes me wanna watch Bret Hart vs Owen Hart @ SummerSlam... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Austin3164life Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Whoever can carry Sid to a good match is a good wrestler. Yes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 What makes a good match? The two guys working in cohesion with each other. Make each other look good. It doesn't always have to be about moveset(many AJPW matches prove that). Have a good story. Tell the fans what is going on in that match. Have a good range in the match. If the match builds and builds and then ends with an ending that it has been building to all match then that's great. Not everything but most everything should mean something. If you do a headlock....why did you do that headlock? Why did you just punch that guy? Why are you piledriving him? It must mean something. If you are going to bump then you should bump in a way that makes your opponents hit look like it took a lot out of you. If you have been wrestling for a long period of time then you should sell the physical tiredness of your body. You should move a little slower, breathe a little heavier, and your attacks shouldn't have as much sting to them. If you have been beaten on the entire match then you should sell it. You should act like you are in pain everytime you move. Each step is agony. The match should logically build from what set to another. Like a good play with different acts. They all mean something and in the end they all come together to form an ending that makes sense. HBK's matches? They had some of this. Not every good match has all of this no. But they must contain most of it. What does HBK not do in there? Hmmm......well first of all his matches don't build to anything. They are really him bumping for his opponent with his offense scattered in there. Does he sell the overworking of his body for being out there? Not really? He has the same spring in his step that he had at the beginning. And the biggest. Does he sell the beating he had throughout the match and does he sell any of the moves thrown on him. NO. He has to do the same thing in every match. He has to make his big comeback at the end. That is why I cannot stand HBK as a worker. The guy's matches mean nothing. They are like watching a bad action movie. Just a bunch of flashy stuff with a quick ending. Yeah real great. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Read my above post Mighty. Hey give me a chance to fucking respond OK? Just because I don't respond immediately doesn't mean I'm dodging your question. I'm reading every post in this thread and trying to respond to most of it. And my computer is slow to load. So if I don't respond right after your post then wait a minute. Jesus........ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 You throw out the term 'classic' way too much. People say a lot of things about the WM Ladder match - it did put the ladder match on the map, but really, how influencial was it? How many ladder matches occured after it happened? I look at the NM99 Tag Ladder match and it just blows it out of the water and spawned many more ladder matches in its wake than the WM X one did. The HITC was a brutal match, but I dont really see anything outside "HBK getting his ass kicked by Taker" in terms of story. HBK as a wrestler wasn't a great storyteller in my view. He sold really well, he bumped his ass off, he had a lot of charisma, but that didn't translate into a lot of depth in his matches. It's like a Backstreet Boys song, it hits a bunch of pretty notes and girls go crazy for it, but a great song that does not make. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 The first match on the comp is HBK vs Bret from SS 97. Shawn is selling the leg like a fucking champ. His expression after the Ring post Figure Four is like someone took a sledgehammer to his leg. He's literally crying for mercy in these submission moves. By the way, Mighty, like I said ealier, your "bump and than come back" explanation doesn't hold up in any of HBK's matches as a heel. His matches do lead somewhere, if he's a face, it leads to him winning with his finisher, the Superkick. Where else is it supposed to lead to? Shawn gets the crowd with him by taking a beating, and then when the crowd thinks he can't take any more, he digs deep and fights back, eventually overcoming the odds and beating the usually larger heel. That's substance man, that's a story. You seem to have some hate for HBK, but you have to at least acknowlege that he's a good worker. Next up is HBK vs Jarret. This is just a great match, perhaps not a classic, but a great match. To respond to the Ladder match, it's not so much as influential as it is just a classic. It's hard to explain, but i'll try too after I get done with this match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest El Satanico Report post Posted February 20, 2003 What people seem to have a problem understanding is that there's a difference between a good performer and a good worker. Damaramu isn't saying that Shawn was a bad performer, just that he's a bad worker. Shawn was a great performer, but he's an questionable worker. That doesn't mean damaramu is saying that Shawn is a terrible wrestler. Hell I believe he even said he liked HBK the wrestler earlier Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 I assumed the term "worker" was similar, if not the same as "wrestler". If he does mean performer or whatever, than that's different. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Isn't it amazing most of y'all claim to dispise Shawn and yet we debate about him for 4 pages? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Depends on your definition of worker. HBK was known to dog it in the ring on many occasions. HBK was known to drop titles to no one. HBK was known to fake injuries. HBK was known to be a prick backstage. That's not a great 'worker'. Plus, HBK ended up crippling himself too early in his career. Doesn't sound like a 'great worker'. HBK was a great athlete with a lot of charisma. Sometimes that translated in the ring and a good match was made. I won't and don't call Shawn a bad wrestler, because he did have good matches. I just won't call him great. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 What the fuck!? That is not substance nor is it a great story. It is HBK jumping up after a beating and winning the match with his finisher. Why doesn't he try something different for a change? It should lead to a truly exciting story and ending. It shouldn't lead to....."Shawn jumps up in no pain and destroys his enemey in one fell swoop". That might be fine for a superhero show but not for a wrestling match. And yeah Shawn sells during the match. But at the end of the match how much does he sell? None! Let's look at Bret at WMX for a good sell job. He limps down the fucking aisle 2 hours after he got his leg injured and wrestles the match selling his bum wheel. How about Austin during his beatings of Angle in 2001? Angle would stick him in the ankelock and he'd get up but he'd be limping. Would HBK do any of that? Hell no. He'd sell during the match and then jump up at the end acting perfectly fine. The guys matches all lead to the same shitty conclusion. Now I'm going to restart my computer. But I'll be back on in 5 minutes. Don't go getting all ancey now and wondering why I'm dodging your questions. OK? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest El Satanico Report post Posted February 20, 2003 No he's talking about "worker". It's just a slight difference but there is a difference between "performer" and "worker". Don't ask me to explain because i have no clue how to explain it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 That must mean people loved Hitler right? There are books, studys, essays, films, etc made about him... God that logic just doesn't work. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 If being a good worker is based strictly on ring work, than we can judge him on the number of good matches that he had. Not classic matches, but good matches, and he had a lot of those. Mighty, most faces do end up non selling at the end of the match. Bret Hart, with the exception of WMX, would just get up and do his 5 moves of doom at the end of his matches. When a face gains momentum at the end of the match, you just can't stop it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Shawn worked hard in most of his matches. How about that Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted February 20, 2003 That must mean people loved Hitler right? There are books, studys, essays, films, etc made about him... God that logic just doesn't work. I know that but Shawn isn't exactly NEAR Hitler levels...Cept in Calgary... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
