HBK: The Wrestler

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

With all this being said, I *am* going to the HBK autograph session this Saturday

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Yes but Guerrerro was putting out better matches than HBK. You can't really judge that though b/c you haven't seen Guerrerro work. You have to take our word for it and like I said I used to be a HUGE HBK mark but even I admit that he wasn't as good as these guys.

Don't make me get the Puro guys in here. I can do it. I'll have Tim in here just like that.

[Guest CanadianChick]

Theirs no question to me that Benoit is better, the question at hand is Jericho and Guerro...and to a lesser extent Mick Foley.

IMO, Guererro is better than Shawn, Jericho is equal to Shawn, and Shawn is better than Foley(not to take anything away from Foley because I think he's really good too).

[Guest Shanghai Kid]

1) Uh i've read his book a million times, it doesn't prove anything.

 

#2) What made Shawn good was the timing of his comebacks and his ability to make anything with two legs in the ring look good.

 

#3) Austin and HHH were both good workers when Foley faced them.

 

And I have to disagree, I think Shawn was a good worker. Your the one who seems to think your right about everything you say. I'm being objective here, i'm not saying Shawn is great, i'm just saying putting Jericho is questionable, and putting Foley over him is just wrong.

[Guest Shanghai Kid]

Oh please don't bring the Puro guys in here after me.....they're just so damn knowledgable.

[Guest notJames]

I though I could avoid this thread because I knew from the title that this was just bait for continuing the never-ending debate about HBK the wrestler v. Shawn Hickenbottom the person. And since my anti-Michaels bias is only slightly lesser known than my severe loathing of Goldberg, I would no doubt be unable to provide objective reasons behind whatever I said.

 

Until now.

 

When HBK had all these great matches, he was firmly entrenched within the ear of Vince McMahon. He was able to manipulate himself into the World Title picture, pick and choose who he fought, decide when to give it his all (against his Kliq friends) and when to half-ass it (everyone else), commandeer a match to his liking, change a match's outcome on the fly, and pretty much decide how much an opponent would make him look good. Sure, he would go out and play the rag doll against the giant sloths of the mid '90s, but who wouldn't in so so sweet a political position?

 

You can't separate the person from the wrestler when one so clearly maniuplates the factors that makes the other one "great".

 

And the mark of a truly great wrestler is to know when your time is through. Obviously, GodBoy hasn't woken up to that. Perhaps it will take another fall onto a casket for him to see the light. Maybe it will have to be his own.

 

And just to be a further pain in the ass, there is no such thing as "per say". It's "per se".

[Guest Shanghai Kid]

If the mark of a great wrestler is to know when your time is up..than where does that leave Ric Flair?

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Hey I'm just saying. If you need more people to pound it through your head then that's what I'll get.

Yeah Shawn was a great bumper and seller. I'm not denying that. But for you to say that Eddie is not better than him is just complete and utter bullshit.

And Foley had perfect comebacks and timing just as well. And he could do more than just bump. Which was what Shawn had going for him. And like I said......Shawn did make his opponents look good.....but he negated it all at the end and made them look like shit when he just leaped up from there beating and pinned them after a shitty kick. Foley didn't do that. He did the gutsy bastard thing where he kept coming but he you know actually sold the pain and eventually would go down. He didn't make his opponents look like trash at the end of the match, which Shawn did.

[Guest TonyJaymzReloaded]

Jericho could run circles around HBK promo wise, and Mick could kill them both on the stick. Eddy's good but never impressed me too much on the stick.

 

Jericho can carry people. Shawn can bump for people. There is a difference.

 

I never liked HBK, always seemed more like sizzle than steak to me.

[Guest SP-1]

What do I think of Shawn Michaels as a wrestler?

 

Wrestlemania 12. Bret. Shawn. Iron Match. My favorite match ever. And before you Bret bitches start babbling about how Bret made that match and whatknot, just save it because I'm not downing Bret Hart at all. Bret is at the top of my list and he always will be, plain and simple. Shawn brought it in that amtch and he's brought it anytime I've ever seen him in the ring. His charisma outshined his ring work at times, but I've never thought that his ring work was lacking. Shawn was good. Shawn was great, IMO. Not the greatest ever, but he's an Icon as far as I'm concerned.

 

As for his backstage stuff? It's done. it's in the past. As a Christian myself, I don't hold it against him, and I don't believe he's still doing it now. I sense a different person between when I watch the Bret WM12 match and when I saw him at RAW vs. RVD here in Charleston.

 

So to narrow that down: I think Shawn Michaels will ultimately be remembered in the history of Pro wrestling as an above average, charasmatic wrestler who could tell a damn good story in the ring. And that's all I care about.

[Guest Shanghai Kid]

No need for pounding...

 

 

I see what your saying, but I just don't see this argument getting solved. Thiers no way your going to be able to convince me that Mick Foley is a better wrestler than Shawn Micheals, same thing with Jericho.

 

 

Eddie, ya maybe your right. But I can't agree there because I haven't seen his other stuff. I'm basing my belief that Shawn is better just on from what i've seen from Eddie in the WWF and WCW.

 

This is a good argument though, I just wish that you would see that i'm not being a mark, and that i'm trying to be as objective as possible.

[Guest Shanghai Kid]

Tony, how about you tell us the difference between Jericho carrying somebody and Shawn bumping for somebody. And what do you call his matches with Sid, Undertaker, and Diesel?

[Guest notJames]

If the mark of a great wrestler is to know when your time is up..than where does that leave Ric Flair?

Ric Flair is untouchable.

 

And he's a manager, so the point is moot.

 

Besides, he's got roughly 200 years of experience, expertise, and knowledge that he can impart on the next generation of wrestlers.

 

HBK's legacy is ugly ring attire and whining when other people use a superkick.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

The Ironman match was pure crap.

 

The 'story' that shawn told was all the same "I am going to get my ass kicked"

[Guest Choken One]

Ok, I haven't read any of you guy's comments but I would Like to say something...

 

Shawn the wrestler easily stands out as one of the Premier wrestlers of the modern era. Would I go as far as too call him the greatest? Not really in terms of overall greatness, The guy had the package, almost. He was fast, Intelligent, manipulative, sneaky and charismatic and I'm only speaking from an in-ring aspect.

 

He was Past RVD overness in 1995 when the fans single handily forced Shawn to turn face. The problem is this with his character, He was never a good face and always seemed more comfortable in his 1993-1994 heel mode.

 

1996 Shawn stands out as one of the greatest single wrestler yearly performance of all time, not quite Flair 1989 or even Austin 2001 but it was GREAT. He even carried that clog Sid to a *** match which I don't even think Bret or Flair ever did.

 

I never was a big anti shawn guy on the whole Montreal gig, I sincerly think he had to do what it took to survive...even if it costs another man's career, it's no different than any other corporate business.

 

Shawn will always stand out as one the top guys in the business...

[Guest SP-1]

I'm sorry you feel that way, Rick. I suppose it's your loss and I feel a bit sad that you seem so damn lost in your smarkness that you can't percieve a story in that match.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Yes but really think about HBK. What could he do? That's where you're having a problem here. You see him do a bunch of flashy bumps and getting the shit kicked out of him then making a perfectly timed comeback(complete with shitty no-selling) and think that = great worker. It equals good showman and good bumper. Shawn Michaels was a good showman I'll give you that. But like Kurt Angle said the name of the game is wrestling.

Chris Jericho makes his opponents look good just as much as HBK, bumps just as much as him so by your definition of what makes HBK great that should make Jericho great.

Foley can bump better and sell better than HBK. Made his opponents look 10X better than HBK ever did and had some pretty damn good matches to boot. And is probably more beloved by the fans than Shawn ever will be. So by your definition that should put him above Shawn.

And Eddie......dear god....you are just going to have to take our word for it. He can wrestle so much better than HBK. Why do you think everyone talks about how great Eddie is and why everyone is telling you that he is better than HBK? For our health? No BECAUSE IT'S TRUE.

[Guest Shanghai Kid]

Flair is a manager now, but he's been past his prime for 10 years, and still wrestled. He was even wrestling last year.

[Guest Respect The 'Taker]

I can see where your coming from Shanghai. But to be truly objective you need to understand both parties as best you can. Since you have not viewed all of Eddie Guerrero's work, then it's impossible for the argument to lead anywhere, as for all you know they could be pulling shit out of their ass (which , of course, they're not, just an example).

 

As for the Foley-HBK argument, i don't understand how Foley's book truly shows how good he was in the ring. I've read his book and found it to be poorly written and had a very bitter under-tone to it, espicially when Foley was describing his teenage fans. With that aside, as it has nothing to do with what he was like inside the ring, both Foley & HBK were reknown for their bumping ability. I'd have to say Foley did the more convincing of the two, as Shawn would, as stated earlier, nip up after having a truckload of offense thrown at him and superkick his opponent down, which is just the same as Hulk Hogan 'hulking up'.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Shawn to Bret: "I will never put you over" - Yeah, Vince must have really twisted HBK's arm to screw Bret.

 

"I swear to god, my hands are clean of this" - good ol churchie, Holy Bible Kristian...

 

"A leopard never changes it's spots" - Bret Hart.

 

Shawn will stand out as the top guy in a low company. The only reason he ever gets play is because McMahon loves him.

[Guest Choken One]

How about we call it this...

 

Eddy=Great Worker

Shawn=Great Performer

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

You don't have to be lost in smarkness to not percieve anything. The match was full of rest holds. But wait you say they were building to something! They meant nothing and neither guy sold anything in the end....thus making them restholds to pass the time. That is why the match was shitty. It was 55 minutes of absolute crap. It puts me to sleep. The last 5 minutes and the overtime were pretty good though.

And I'll tell you what I call his Diesel, Sid, and UT matches. They were Shawn bumping for the big guy. Dude it's not that hard. Shawn would go out there and let the big guy toss him around for the whole match while the announcers speculated that he was dead. Then he'd jump up at the end and beat the big guy. How does that make it a good match? How does that make the big guy look good? It serves to make only Shawn look good. And that was his entire title reign and defines roughly 90% of Shawn's matches. Shawn making Shawn look good.

[Guest papacita]

As opposed to HBK who spends the whole match making his opponent look good and then completely negating that by kipping up and killing the guy in 3 moves.

Shawn's selling did get a little shaky, but I can't think of too many matches (against credible opponents) where Shawn ran straight through his opponent following the kip up.

 

I've tried to stay away from this debate, because I'm a big HBK mark and can't really be all that objective. But as far as the comparisons to Jericho and Eddy...I like Jericho, but his style is a little too loose for me at times. I wouldn't say he's better than Michaels. Eddy, on the other hand...Michaels can't touch Eddy in the ring.

[Guest SP-1]

"I swear to god, my hands are clean of this" - good ol churchie, Holy Bible Kristian...

 

That's pathetic, Rick. It truly is. I leave this thread now if you're going to be that petty, dude. I'm pretty sure that comment was made before Shawn committed his life to Christ (not Krist). Is he accountable for it? Sure. Is it material I am willing to hold against him? No. it goes against my beliefs. Accountably, I believe Shawn will have to deal with Bret about that. Which is their business, not ours. Accountably, I think if he hasn't already, Shawn will be convicted about any wrongdoing in that and handle it with God and with Bret.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

The story was weak because it didn't reflect the format and purpose of the ironman match. If they wanted to have a really long match where Shawn showed his will to win to accomplish his boyhood dream, then why didn't they just have a 60 minute long match? It just didn't work. And don't play the bitter cynical jadded smarkcard because I love the artistic value that wrestling presents - and that match had none. There was a 15 minute start, then a 15 minute armbar and then 15 minutes of nothing, then 15 minutes of highspots. With the Ironman format they could have done SO FUCKING MUCH but they did NOTHING. No falls, no 'ironman psychology', plus they had a screwy/politiked ending because neither guy wanted to get a fall against them.

[Guest SP-1]

The story in the match was that Shawn Michaels brought a risk taking, high flying, "mexican" style to it while Bret was regarded as a near diety for technical, "pure" wrestling. That's why the match had alot of technical "holds" and then moved to segments of high spots. Bret was regarded as stoic and all business while Shawn was the charasmatic performer. Note that Shawn's entrance there was as flashy as they come, gliding down on the cable and landing in the audience. That's why the pace and moveset for that match was as it is.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Was HBK born-again around WM 17 when he showed up in 'no condition to wrestle'?

[Guest Respect The 'Taker]

You don't have to be lost in smarkness to not percieve anything. The match was full of rest holds. But wait you say they were building to something! They meant nothing and neither guy sold anything in the end....thus making them restholds to pass the time. That is why the match was shitty. It was 55 minutes of absolute crap. It puts me to sleep. The last 5 minutes and the overtime were pretty good though.

And I'll tell you what I call his Diesel, Sid, and UT matches. They were Shawn bumping for the big guy. Dude it's not that hard. Shawn would go out there and let the big guy toss him around for the whole match while the announcers speculated that he was dead. Then he'd jump up at the end and beat the big guy. How does that make it a good match? How does that make the big guy look good? It serves to make only Shawn look good. And that was his entire title reign and defines roughly 90% of Shawn's matches. Shawn making Shawn look good.

Okay, but your taking away what is important here...

 

THIS IS ENTERTAINMENT. Watching matches like that entertained the hell out of me, and i class HBK's match with Sycho Sid @ Survivor Series 96 as one of the most fun matches i've seen.

 

I understand your a workrate freak, and like a great technical exhibition. That's all good, but can you tell me that watching HBK go bump-crazy for guys like Sid and make them look AWESOME in the process didn't entertain you in the slightest bit?

 

Sometimes, smarks need to stop expecting every match to be on par with something Benoit would do and just do what you did when you were a mark - sat back and let yourself be entertained. Being critical only detracts from the overall experience.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Yeah well I'm an atheist. So it still makes Shawn a two face lier to me.

And see even Papacita...an admitted HBK mark is saying that Eddie is better.

And yes Shawn didn't run through his opponents right after the kip up but neither did Hogan. Just 95% of the time. And 95% of the time it was: flying forearm, kip up, maybe a double axe handle or flying elbow, superkick, it's over. He was a smaller modern day Hogan. And that completely negated his opponents offense and made them look week. Here's this guy half there size that they've spent the better part of 20 minutes kicking the shit out of and he jumps up and does like 3 moves and you're out. Yeah he sure did make his opponents look good there.

[Guest SP-1]

You tell me. If he was, I think it was a pretty recent thing. Professing faith in Christ doesn't make you perfect, and especially not overnight. It's a process.