Guest Respect The 'Taker Report post Posted February 20, 2003 I agree with SHANGhai on this one, Jericho in his prime against HBK in his prime is a no contest in my book. Jericho had charisma, sure, but I have always felt that the people he was in the ring with were the stars, not him. However, every other wrestler that Rudo & Damaramu have been stating as on par/better than HBK i would also class in the same league as Shawn Michaels. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 ...In the ring. Then there is the whole situation with dropping titles, acting like a dick, and the homosexual relationship he may or may not have had with Vince McMahon... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 To me, Angle is right up there with Shawn, and Benoit is even better. But Jericho and Guerro...I don't think so. It's arguable though...which i'm sure somebody is going to do. Ah, Ravishing, we already know that part about his legacy, this thread is to discuss his wrestling. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 I'd say that Jericho/HBK is a close one. Jericho had a good match with Hogan and Jeff Hardy... That's godlike. But then there is the issue of 'crispness' of moves, which Jericho lacks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Respect The 'Taker Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Alright, as one of the resident Guerrero marks i feel obliged to say that Guerrero pisses all over Shawn Michaels on his worst day. Eddie Guerrero is Jesus Christ. That is all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Guerrerro is questionable on that list? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That's funny.....ok now I'll seriously tell you....BWAHAHAHAHAHA! HBK better than Eddie!? HAHAHAHAHA! Have you ever actually watched an Eddie match compared to an HBK match? Eddie in Mexico, Japan, and WCW? He wrestles circles around HBK. And Jericho can bump just as well as HBK. Hell Jericho pretty much wrestled himself against Steiner. Angle works the WWE style better than anyone else. And people complain about his no selling. How about HBK's pop up into his big finish? And you have got to be kidding me about the Austin thing. Austin like Eddie can wrestle circles around HBK. Watch a high-end Austin match as compared to a high-end HBK match. Austin does things, Austin includes psychology, moveset, and bumps his ass off. HBK bumps his ass up and then kips-up for his big finale. HBK better than Eddie......BWAHAHAHAHA! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 I think Guerrero is better than HBK. He is/was much more well rounded and has had really good matches in more promotions and styles than HBK has (vs. Malenko in ECW, vs Benoit in NJ, vs. Rey in WCW, vs. Edge in WWE, vs. Octagon/EHDS in AAA) . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Respect The 'Taker Report post Posted February 20, 2003 How about HBK's pop up into his big finish? That ALWAYS shitted me off when he did that. I used to hate his ass in 96 after he went of my hero, Bret Hart, and I'd watch In Your House and it'd show Bulldog kick the crap out of Shawn for 20 minutes only for him to nip up at the end and hit his superkick. ARGH!!! And good to see your with me on the Eddie argument too, Damaramu Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 But has Jericho had as many good matches as Shawn, or any classics in general? Same thing with Eddie. If they have, than i'll say their better, but I just want to hear some examples of thier classic matches against HBK's classic matches. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CanadianChick Report post Posted February 20, 2003 But has Jericho had as many good matches as Shawn, or any classics in general? Same thing with Eddie. If they have, than i'll say their better, but I just want to hear some examples of thier classic matches against HBK's classic matches. Well, what would you consider HBK classic matches? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Eddies classic matches? Try the tag match at AAA When Worlds Collide, try his matches as Black Tiger against Wild Pegasus, try his matchs against Rey in WCW. They all easily kill HBK's classics. Wait has HBK had any classics? Nope......not really. And this is coming from a huge Shawn fan back in the day. But you have to look at it objectively. Put your markishness aside. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Umm, let's say Ladder match, HIAC, vs Jeff Jarret, vs Marty Jannety, Iron Man, vs Mankind, vs Bret Hart from SS 92, vs Bulldog, vs Austin, vs Sid at SS 96 (not a classic, but the definition of a carry job), Casket match vs Taker, umm..i'll think of some others. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Ok out of those what's classic? The ladder match and the Foley match. Yep that guy had a lot of classics. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Maybe I just have Scott Kiethanitus, but I consider some of those classic. And you have to admit, he could adjust to different styles, and work any type of gimmick match. Eddie vs Ray, is one of the best matches of 90's, I haven't seen the other one's you listed though, I've only seen North American mainstream WWF/WCW/a little ECW stuff. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Well he did win the Match of the Year Award for 5 years straight (93-97)...so somebody must agree with me and Keith as far as the classics go. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 I'd put Eddie vs. Rey HH97 against anything HBK has done. Eddie vs. Malenko HCS95 was awesome. Eddie/Sasuke vs. Benoit/Ohtani SuperJr Tag League 94 (both matches) were some of the best tag matches I have ever seen. Eddie vs. Benoit in Japan (can't recall the time - really good though...honest!) Eddie vs. RVD ladder match, Eddie vs. Edge blowoff, were really good too. vs. Ohtani at Starcade 95... Jericho is a bit tougher because most of his great work was with God...I mean Benoit...I would put his ladder match w/ Benoit at RR01 against HBK's gimmick matches. Jericho vs. Benoit Jcup 95 was one of his best matches, Jericho vs. Dragon (cant recall when) but it was really good, hell, Jericho even had a good match with Pitbull #2! Again, Jericho vs. Hogan - I'd put this up against any of HBK's "carry jobs" because Jericho did more than just bump his ass off to make Hogan look good. Jericho vs. Benoit 2/3 falls at SS, Jerichos matches vs. RVD are always good to watch, uuummm... That good enough? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CanadianChick Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Well he did win the Match of the Year Award for 5 years straight (93-97)...so somebody must agree with me and Keith as far as the classics go. Just wondering, but are those MOTYs PWI awards or what? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Yeah a bunch of marks and smarks who are only wow'd by flashy moves. And what's with this adjusting to styles crap!? The guy bumped....that's all he did. Yes he could bump for different styles but if you can't do that then you have no business wrestling. And you actually named the Iron Man match as one of the great ones!? HAHAHAHA! That match was the most boring match and had the shittiest selling this side of the Big Show. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 So most of Jericho's classics were against Benoit? Interesting. Better wrestlers and better matches is always hard to discuss because it's so opinionated, but this is what message boards are for, I love it. Ya it's PWI, but Scott Keith isn't a mark, and he'd call them classics. Like I said, it's all opinionated. To me, HBK vs Mankind can compete with Eddie/Rey, and to me, HBK has had more than just two classics. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 *shudders @ the ironman* Classic example of politics ruining a match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Hell I'd put a low-end Benoit/Guerrerro match against anything HBK has done save the Foley match. And hell that wasn't all HBK. Foley is a great wrestler when it comes down to it. And hell I'd put him over HBK in terms of wrestling mind and match quality. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 I'll say this of Jericho, whenever the WWF wants to 'teach someone to work' they will put said wrestler in the ring with Benoit or Jericho. HBK had a series of matches with Bret - who was considered the benoit of his day (wink) - why weren't they as good as Benoit and Jerichos series? (oh yeah, cause Bret and Shawn hated each other...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 OK, so now Foley is better than HBK? I appreciate your opinion Mighty, but can you back that up with examples or a logical explanation? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CanadianChick Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Shawn was a great wrestler, but I still would watch Benoit and Eddy over him. Hell, during Shawn's prime, I enjoyed watching Bret over him. Jericho and Shawn are actually really close for me; they have a lot of the same qualities. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Wait it's good because Scott Keith said it was classic? Please....Scott Keith isn't THE source for any good matches.....he shouldn't be ANY source actually. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 No, it's not good becaue Keith said it was, but he's as good of a source as we are. Obviously he knows as much about wrestling as we do. And i'm waiting for you to address the Foley comment. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 I'd put Foley above HBK in terms of Promos - but then again, I'd put Foley above EVERYONE in terms of promos cause he's the best I have ever heard on the stick... In terms of match structure, Foley was better than Michaels - but I don't really enjoy Foleys matches as much as Michaels' so I can't really call him better.... I dunno, I'd have to watch em all over again to really decide - Foley *did* have some great matches, but I can't help but thing "WWE Hardcore Match" when I see em. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CanadianChick Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Wait it's good because Scott Keith said it was classic? Please....Scott Keith isn't THE source for any good matches.....he shouldn't be ANY source actually. Well, he can be a good basis if you've never watched a particular match, but really, it's your opinion at the end. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Examples for Foley? #1) Read his book. The guy has a terriffic mind for wrestling. He knows exactly what to do and when to do it. #2) The only thing that made Shawn any good was his bumping and selling ability which Foley could do just as good if not better than Shawn. #3) Witness his matches with Austin and HHH. The guy knows exactly what to do to make a match good and exactly how to put his opponent over. As opposed to HBK who spends the whole match making his opponent look good and then completely negating that by kipping up and killing the guy in 3 moves. HBK is really not a good worker. We keep giving you tons of examples and you won't listen. You are an HBK mark and you need to take your markishness and put it in a box and put it to side until this discussion is over. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Theirs no question to me that Benoit is better, the question at hand is Jericho and Guerro...and to a lesser extent Mick Foley. Personally, from 1995-1996, I was loving mostly everything HBK was putting out as far as match quality goes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
