Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Thank you Santico! I said earlier that I was an HBK mark back in the day. So I don't know where you pulled this Shawn hate thing from. And I'm not saying he was a bad performer. He was a fine "oooooh" and "ahhhhh" wrestler like RVD. But he was by no means a good worker. Eddie and Benoit are good workers. HBK is not. He's a good showman. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Just call me Dan Report post Posted February 20, 2003 All this bashing of Jericho's offense is null. WWE style cripples any man's offense. Wrestlers refuse to take his finisher correctly (you think he wants the end all of any of his matches to be that shitty crab?) Jericho is forced to incorporate a few signature moves into his offense, and with the vast array of wrestlers, it is hard to find a move he can do to everyone on the roster that isn't taken. He can't double powerbomb people anymore. His offense is weak, but it's not his own doing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Who in the hell is criticizing Jericho's offense? Mighty, I have to know what your definition of a good worker is. IMO, Shawn was a good worker, and Benoit is a great worker. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 It doesn't matter. Just because you discuss something doesn't necessarily mean you like the subject/person in question. Quite frankly 70% of the posts in this thread are the same - It's me and Dama saying "Shawn bumped a lot". Then there are subtopics like what makes up a good match, storytelling, bumping, Jericho and Guerrero... Hell, I really wonder how much of this thread is directly related to HBK Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest El Satanico Report post Posted February 20, 2003 There Damaruma explained the difference between "performer" and "worker". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 So, in your opinion, what seperates the good workers (Eddie, Benoit, Foley) from an apparently non good worker like Shawn? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted February 20, 2003 I still don't think Foley as a Worker...I've always seen him as a Performer... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Working (Carny) (Wur*king) (N) - to work the mark. In other words, to trick the fans. Worker - someone who tricks the fans. This is the basic definition of a worker. The connotative definition is someone who bumps and sells for his opponents, who works safe, who works crisp, who does what he is told, etc. It relates strictly to wrestling - to the 'sport'. Performer relates more to the entertaining. It's all working, however. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Just call me Dan Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Who in the hell is criticizing Jericho's offense? Mighty, I have to know what your definition of a good worker is. IMO, Shawn was a good worker, and Benoit is a great worker. Chill. I read the whole thread and there were many comparisons to Jericho, but Jericho has been accused of having a shit offense and not being able to pull off crisp moves or make them look good. Everyone else has elaborated on HBK's performances/old matches/religion/politics/tights/etc enough for this discussion about him personally to end. I decided to elaborate on a comparison from a few pages back. Excuse me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 That's me, and it's true. Jerichos offense is goofy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest El Satanico Report post Posted February 20, 2003 If you haven't been paying attention to anything damaruma has said on the topic why are you debating with him. He explained it quite well, Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 It's cool Don. Alright, so a worker is everything strictly in the ring related. To me, what seperates HBK from RVD, is that HBK isn't just a spot wrestler. He sells the moves, and he can throw technical wrestling in there too. He's fine as far as Pysc, pacing, and selling goes, and his list of good matches to me makes him a good worker. Satanico, i've been paying attention to everything, but theirs a lot of posting going on and I guess I missed Mightys "definition of a worker". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Just call me Dan Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Oh his moves suck, but I don't think that can be attributed to Jericho as a wrestler, because I remember his WCW days being a bit more crisp. He's be shafted with a boston crab and a lack of moves. He isn't very innovative, no, but I don't think it is really his fault. I think he wants to be in the main event, so he adapts. EDIT: DON?!?!? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Damaruma? Hahaha......still the funniest screw up of my name was when I was called The Mighty Dormroom. Anyways. What seperates a good worker from a good performer? How about this....read my definition of a good match. Then think of someone that can pull that off. That is a good worker. Benoit and Guerrerro can pull that off and so can Foley. A good performer is someone like Shawn Michaels. He goes out there and has matches that aren't good matches but they are flashy and get the crowd popping. That is what a good performer does. He doesn't neccessarily have good matches just flashy ones. RVD is an example of a good performer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 I loved everything about Jericho in WCW. His match with Huventud from Superbrawl 98 is still one of my all time favorites. You watch that match, and wonder where his great offense went. What happened to that dropkick he did where he jumped on the second turnbuck and dropkicked somebody standing on the apron? Mighty, for me, HBK's resume of matches that can only be defined as good, makes him a good worker in my eyes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Who's Huventud? Sounds like a potato dinner. He still does the dropkick. However he should do it like he did in Japan. Do the dropkick off the top rope and do a moonsault to the outside from the second rope. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 His previous attempts at getting a finisher (Flashback? Backlash?) were a sleeper drop and a full nelson stroke were god awful. He just rushes things a lil too much. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Just call me Dan Report post Posted February 20, 2003 HBK is definitely more transitionally strong than RVD. If Rob could work a transitional match and sell for a little longer than he does, he'd be much better. My friends and I play a game of "What can Rob sell?" when he wrestles because one night when Kane or someone lifted him up for a powerslam, he groaned and sold the hell out of himself being placed on the guy's shoulder. Then his leg was worked on for 5 minutes, and he ran around like Michael Johnson. I don't understand the guy. When you compare his selling (long-term) to HBK's it makes HBK's much better. I'd much rather have HBK kip-up at the END of the match and no sell very briefly than Rob just running around for about 5 minutes after extensive legwork. Still doesn't excuse it, I know. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 His resume of matches are not good though. See this is where you're having a problem. You don't just have me here but you have Rudo and everyone else trying to tell you that he didn't have good matches. He had good performances but not matches. Look at what we said makes a good match. HBK's matches do not fit these criteria. These matches you listed as classics were exactly what me and Rudo said they were. Shawn bumping his ass off and then in the end forgetting it all and vanquishing his enemy with one blown. You keep telling us to look at it objectively, well you need to look at it objectively. And what's with this "Well it is to me so there!" man you aren't a very good debater. That's something a 10 year old would do. Don't debate like a 10 year old.....or that scary dumbass on AIM who always bugs me about prime. He debates like a child. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest El Satanico Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Damaruma? Hahaha......still the funniest screw up of my name was when I was called The Mighty Dormroom. Anyways. heh...the last four letters keep screwing me up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Just call me Dan Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Thing is Rick, take the Stunner away from Austin or the Pedigree from HHH because everyone takes them like Vince McMahon. What the hell would anybody do? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Well the problem with RVD is he can sell....as long as it doesn't interfere with his offense. He can't really function without his offense. He's not a good enough worker to compensate. And that brings me to another point. If Shawn had a match where he had his legs taken out would he be able to compensate? He's lost the superkick so he'd have to come up with something new. I don't think he could. And I'd think that's why we haven't seen a match where Shawn's leg was worked over extensively. And if there was one and I forgot about it then he must've sold shitty b/c it seems all of his matches end with that damn superkick. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Does it matter? Jericho can't even manage to do that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Just call me Dan Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Very true. I can see why a good psychological wrestler would want to work Rob's legs, but obviously he and the man who books the match aren't seeing eye to eye. Rob's legs get worked on a lot to no avail. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Not really...I recall he won some matches with the Slingshot suplex in his heel days...he might have won a few with a Roll-up...and I believe he won a few with the Elbow drop... And the Sharpshooter of course... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 A good worker can compensate when his signature move has been negated. Take the crossface away from Benoit? What would he do? He'd probably come up with something new to beat your ass with. I mean Benoit has a huge moveset and he's used a fraction or it in the WWE. He's got more tricks. That's what I'm saying about HBK. I don't think he could function without being able to end the match with a superkick or some big run-in. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Just call me Dan Report post Posted February 20, 2003 I'd have liked to have seen Jericho take on the Sharpshooter rather than Storm. I beliieve he could have made it look good and that finisher has been over for years. It would only add to Jericho's heat. Storm can't even get it over, and he just doesn't use it because he likes all his rolling counters into a single-leg crab he learned over the years. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Mighty, debates are about opinions, i'm stating that what i'm saying is my opinion, think about it. Your saying that Shawn Micheals didn't have good matches in his career, and that because you have told us what a good match is IN YOUR OPINION, that suddenly it's GOSPEL. I guess your standards are just a little bit higher than me, but on a North American scale, I consider a lot of Shawns matches to be good, but it's not just my opinion, I think most people will agree with me that Shawn has a lot of good matches. Not "good performances", but good matches. And why is your opinion more Gospel than mine, or anybody else's? Or even Scott Keith, who writes books about wrestling.. Please don't give me the "I told you what a good match is, I told you Shawn doesn't have good matches, so stop questioning it" speech again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 I like Shawns elbow drop... *whistles* Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Not really...I recall he won some matches with the Slingshot suplex in his heel days...he might have won a few with a Roll-up...and I believe he won a few with the Elbow drop... And the Sharpshooter of course... If he won with the elbow drop then it wasn't in a big time PPV match where he's claiming Shawn had his classic matches at. And the backdrop suplex he did was before the superkick was his finisher. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
