Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Scott Keith writes books about wrestling? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Oh, I thought we meant General Shawn Matches in whole... Wait...didn't he beat Taker with the dastardly one arm cover? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 We're not talking about classic matches, we're talking about good matches. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted February 20, 2003 I still Say that NO one can deny that the Ladder Match was a Classic... HIAC is argueable as is the rest of Shawn's "Classic" matches... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 I think Shawn had some good matches. Don't lump me in the 'HBK is a bad wrestler" catagory, I am just saying he is not really a great one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Just call me Dan Report post Posted February 20, 2003 I just don't think someone can compensate for that no matter who they are. When you use a finisher for years and it gets shit on, where do you go? Angle picked a new one up, but hadn't been using the Slam for YEARS. Big Show - Tried the Eye of the Hurricane and Reverse powerbomb because too many people used the chokeslam ( went back to chokeslam) Kane - Tried a falling powerbomb (see big show) Went back to chokeslam Billy Gunn tired the sleeper drop Booker T just can't get one to work. I just don't see how you can get one over. It just won't work it seems, unless it was someone else's move who has retired or is no longer with the company. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted February 20, 2003 If I made a List...for Wrestling only... Shawn ranks 15-25... Entertainment...Shawn might make the top 7... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 I'd still deny that. The ladder match didn't really impress me at the time, maybe I was in the minority. I can't help but compare it to the NM99 ladder match, and there really is no comparison. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Because it's pretty much universally agreed on about what makes a good match. Hell most wrestlers agree on that. Listen to Steve Austin on Tough Enough or any of the trainers. They pretty much said what I said "The match has to build logically and make sense" but none of Shawn's matches do that! I'm not saying my opinion is better than yours. And if we're using a North American standard rather than a world standard then they're still crappy. Because the NWA had matches that outclassed Shawn's. Randy Savage had matches that outclassed Shawn's. Same with Eddie Guerrerro, Rey Mysterio, Bret Hart, Steve Austin, Chris Benoit, Kurt Angle, and Owen Hart. So if we're judging from a North American perspective and using the definition given by the people who are doing that then we still come to the conclusion that Shawn's matches are not good matches. I said they were good shows. But they are bad matches. And it's not because I'm saying it is. It's because they are when you judge them against the other matches that have been performed before and after it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest El Satanico Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Also people saying "good matches" instead of "good performances" proves nothing. It's a matter of how someone words it. People are "trained" to say "good matches" so what do you want? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 There are plenty of moves Jericho could do that could be considered legit. Of course, that means he would actually have to win a match cleanly to establish it as an effective finisher, and lord knows that's not going to hhhappen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted February 20, 2003 The whole "What Makes a Good Match" is the most disputable and debatable topic in Wrestling...There is NO concrete definition because it's all opinionated... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Just call me Dan Report post Posted February 20, 2003 I agree. Don't get me wrong, the guy hasn't been his old self in a year or two, but I think his problems added with the shit he gets handed from the WWE roster nearly justify that. He and Booker need a moveset overhaul. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Oh JustCallMeDan. I'm not saying that they should try a totally different move. I'm saying that if you were in a match and your opponents gameplan was to take out what you used to perform your finishing move with and you were still supposed to go over, then a good wrestler would come up with something to win that match with that's not his finisher because it's been negated. See what I'm saying? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Alright, well their is no way to end this argument. For me, Shawn had a few classics, and tons of good matches. Thats how I, probably Scott Keith, and probably tons of other smarks look at it. I see your opinions, respect them, and that's just fine. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Actually, some people would argue against the "what is good is subjective" point. I'd put up a case right now but I am really not feelin it at the moment. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Well great debating skills. You have nothing to comeback with so you pull the "Well I liked it so there!" card. Fine if that's how you want it then we can end it here. I'll do the same thing as you. Well to me and probably tons of other smarks Shawn Michaels was a bad worker and had bad matches. However he was a good showman and put on entertaining shows. So there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 "What is good" is opinionated, one guy can't come along and change everybody's mind. If Jericho was allowed to do his Lion Tamer the real way, i'd be happy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Mighty, you don't have to act like a prick. I'm ending the argument because nothing is going to change either one of our minds. It's such an opinionated topic, that we could go on for days about. Would you like to do that? Would you like to make a poll on whether or not Shawn is a good worker and that he had good matches? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 "What is Good" isn't opinionated "What I like" is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Please, Mighty, name some bad Shawn Micheals matches for me, nobody here is bow'ing down to your bullshit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Ravishing- Yes, but what is good cannot be determined by one man, and can only be determined by a majority. What I like is one mans opinion, which is what we have going on in this debate, and why it won't end. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 I'm trying to get you to think of this objectively. Just because someone says that a match is not a good match does not mean that it isn't entertaining, some people are only entertained by matches that fit the criteria for a good match. I however am not one of them. Nobody is telling you that you can't enjoy his matches. But what I'm trying to say is, just because you mark for Shawn Michaels and just because you are entertained by his flashiness and his show does not mean that he is a good worker that has good matches. That is what I'm trying to say. You are acting like I'm coming in here saying "Shawn Michaels has never done anything entertaining in his entire career! You can't enjoy anything he's done! I hope he dies!" I'm not. I'm just saying that he doesn't have these good and classic matches you claim he does. Yes his matches are flashy and can entertain you but that does not mean that it is a good match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid Report post Posted February 20, 2003 Your perspective of a good match is from a technical standpoint. That's all good and great, and I guess since different things entertain the both of us, our perspective of a good match will greatly differ. But I am looking at things objectively, Shawns had good matches either way you sling it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 A bad HBK match? Here goes: vs. Bret at SS97 vs. Breat at WM12 vs. Bulldog at KOTR96 vs. Bulldog at Beware of Dog vs. Sid at SS96 vs. Sid at RR97 vs. Sid on RAW vs. Diesel at In Your House vs. Steve Austin at KOTR97 vs. Undertaker at Ground Zero vs. Ken Shamrock at Degeneration X Those were some bad matches. Yes some of them were entertaining. But they weren't good matches. A lot of his matches were mediocre at best. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted February 20, 2003 There are distinguishable elements that make up a good match. Build, Pace, Selling, Moves, Psychology, Story and all that crap. However, you don't have to like something that is good, nor do you have to dislike something that is bad. But, you should at least be able to distinguish between the two and understand why one thing is good and why one thing is bad, and hopefully, you can determine why you like it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 No Shawn has entertaining matches. However his matches do not fit the criteria for a good match. And this isn't something I've pulled out of my ass. I've been watching wrestling for 12 years and seems to be what most fans, wrestlers, and writers seem to agree make a good match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted February 20, 2003 WHAT? That list wasn't THAT bad...The Bulldog match was under rated... The Diesel match was a good brawl... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Mighty Damaramu Report post Posted February 20, 2003 And when was I saying that people were bowing down to my bullshit? And when did I ask for them to or try to make them? Now you're just pulling things out of your ass. I'm not some tyrant jumping on here and saying "HAHAHA! Everyone must listen to me!" Besides me and Rudo seem to be on the same page here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted February 20, 2003 this topic just won't DIE! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
