With the Angle/Lesnar feud officially over...

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

What they were doing up to this week wasn't bad - it wasn't great or even that good either. They could have done better, but they were still on the right track IMO. I don't think the "Oh this feud sucks" "This is the worst feud ever" "There is no hope for this feud, kill me now, I don't want to watch anymore" comments were warranted. It was enough to build on leading up to WM. It still had a lot of potential and things could have been done to make it an excellent feud. I think that, had things gone according to plan, by March 30th the Angle vs. Lesnar feud and match would have been applauded.

[Guest Kid Kablam]

Out of 10, I'd give it 11, just for the entertainment of seeing you over analyse and bitch about every little thing that happened in it.

You make it sound like I was nitpicking. I would complain everytime they did something wrong, yes, because it sent it further down the shitter. Nothing was "little"

You know, as much of a loon as Anglesault can be, he was completely rational during this feud. I still like Brock, but I think I like him less because of this feud. I respect Angle more for being such a performer even when he was getting no recognition for his contributions, but I'm concerned about him. What Anglesault said earlier about the little kid doing anything to get the big kids to play with him was dead on, and as a result, I feel really bad for Kurt.

 

For this Feud, with 1 being Kane vs HHH or Torrie WIlson vs Dawn marie

2 being Jericho vs HHH (Wrestlemani Edition)

3 being Cactus Jack has amnesia

4 being Un-Americans vs Bookdust

5 being Chris Jericho vs William Regal

6 being any of the Cruiserweights feuds this year

7 being The Smackdown Six Tag Feud

8 being Tully Blanchard vs Magnum TA

9 being Rock vs HHH

10 being Austin vs McMahon

 

I'd give it a 3 because they wasted some HUGE potential. And that is a sin unto itself.

[Guest Brian]

Not always completely rational. But they missed the opportunities and it hit them hard.

[Guest The Tino Standard]

Damnit, I knew my phrasing sucked.

 

What I'm trying to say is, say this feud never happened, and Angle/Lesnar was a first time feud next year. Would you book it the way the real WWF did this year?

 

Or, if you could turn back time and start this feud again from January, booking it anyway you wanted to, would you do it the same way WWF did?

I hate fantasy booking, so I'll do my best to stray away from that with this reply...

 

I like the Team Angle vs. Brock Lesnar concept. You have the ultimate wrestler in Kurt Angle as the champion/centerpiece of the group, along with his prodigy tag team Haas and Benjamin. The group is orchestrated by Paul Heyman, Brock's former manager.

 

Heyman constructed the group out of necessity for self-preservation after he shafted Lesnar. The reason he shafted Lesnar was because he thought Brock had too big of a head and wasn't taking direction anymore. So, to stick it to him, he gets the belt off Brock and builds this solid faction to KEEP it away from him. This is all simple stuff.

 

I think they went wrong with having Lesnar continually punking out Team Angle. I don't think this is too hard to book: Heyman and Angle send their goons out to get Lesnar. When they take on Brock individually, he's a monster and he can dominate them. But when they team up, the numbers game takes over and Brock is on the business end of a beatdown. And when necessary, Angle joins in the fray. If you want to get a little more complicated, in one of the beatdowns, tease a Lesnar comeback, only to have Angle annihilate him. Then, people believe you have a tough champion, who might be capable of taking Lesnar out on his own (and with his team, is unstoppable).

 

The result: Lesnar looks good because he seems capable of beating any member of Team Angle one-on-one, but will still need everything he's got to beat the champion Kurt Angle. Team Angle looks good, even tho getting beaten because when they work as a TEAM, they can be successful. And Kurt Angle looks good because he's a strong champion with a strong faction in place heading into the big money match. There. It ain't rocket science.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I was disappointed by what they did at No Way Out and the following Smackdown - esp. after the beat down on the show before the PPV. It should have been the turn of the feud. With that said, I don't think it hit them that hard, they still had time.

[Guest Brian]

Without them pursuing a different course and building out into a different storyline, they couldn't have done it.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

It depends on what 'different course' means. If they were going to continue to build brock up and make Angle look weaker - then yeah. If they were going to pull the trigger on Angle getting the best of him and continuing to do so until mania - then it would have gone fine.

[Guest Brian]

The problem is, it would take more than just Angle getting the best of Brock because Brock's already bested him on a physical level and Angle's shown he's far too intimidated. Plus Brock's gotten the best of all three guys, the brains, and the Big Show every week pretty much.

 

They needed to pursue another direction with the feud for it to work. Angle just all of a sudden in the last three or four weeks started getting in offense on Brock and leaving him hanging. Angle would have needed to exploit a short coming that could adversely work in a singles match, not just something where he's getting a three on one beat up consistently. Or else he poses no threat other than with help from others.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

And who's to say they wouldn't have done that? Angle vs. Kendrick gave the impression that 1)Kurt controlled the situation 2)Kurt is full of himself and can get caught off guard when the time is right. This could lead one to believe that was the way they were going with the storyline.

[Guest Brian]

But that was Kurt against a cruiserweight. And there was no change in the way he went out to do that match.

[Guest FeArHaVoC]

I'm just gonna say this Feud should have been a lot better for all the obvious reasons you guys already posted.

 

I'm not worried about it though. I'm sure when Kurt Angle returns next year he'll be treated right and he can feud with the 3 time WWE Champion Nathan Jones.

[Guest cabbageboy]

Where is the basis for all the talk that Angle and Brock would have been some insanely classic match? If anything their segment in that NWO match was the worst part of that entire match, just Kurt doing a chinlock on Brock most of the time.

 

The feud was decent enough but had a few problems: 1. I still don't like Lesnar. 2. Team Angle has gotten nothing in this whole feud, it has just been week after week of Brock beating their asses. I keep waiting for the time when T. Angle just kills Brock and leaves him laying in a pool of blood, and thus feel some sympathy for Brock that might make him more likable. As it is, the whole thing is like a 2nd rate version of Goldberg vs. the Flock. Haha.

[Guest Kid Kablam]

Where is the basis for all the talk that Angle and Brock would have been some insanely classic match? If anything their segment in that NWO match was the worst part of that entire match, just Kurt doing a chinlock on Brock most of the time.

 

The feud was decent enough but had a few problems: 1. I still don't like Lesnar. 2. Team Angle has gotten nothing in this whole feud, it has just been week after week of Brock beating their asses. I keep waiting for the time when T. Angle just kills Brock and leaves him laying in a pool of blood, and thus feel some sympathy for Brock that might make him more likable. As it is, the whole thing is like a 2nd rate version of Goldberg vs. the Flock. Haha.

They were trying to keep Brock and Angle apart or at least away from any true confrontation in the ring prior to Mania. As for insane classic? I dunno about that, but I do know, that aside from anything with Benoit, Eddy, or Rhyno, it's the one thing on the card I would really look forward to. Brock has proven himself a quality worker, and Agle proved (with Edge) that he can carry a decent worker, if not a broomstick, to a good match. And besides, this would probably be the first of many matchups, and eac time, as Brock improves, the matches could get better and better.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

The basis for the Brock + Kurt = Good match is from the possible story telling and psychological elements they could have incorporated into the match. Given both mens athletic ability and insane bumping (not mick foley bumping, but they both do go above and beyond on the little things) I would have been very suprised if it went under ***1/2.

 

Kendrick was a cruiserweight but that match put Kurt in the position of power. He was toying with him. It established this character trait that could have been used in the brock feud.

[Guest Polish_Rifle]

I would grade the feud as an incomplete since we never got to see the payoff.

 

I was not too impressed with what they had done thus far but that might have to do with my bias against anything Brock Lesner does. I just don't find him appealing or entertaining. It's too bad, because with Angle out, Lesner reign on top of Smackdown will continue.

[Guest Brian]

I think when I wrote the whole thing out back in November, I jad this insanely great match just based on story. Basically, Brock's emphasis on power and Angle's on speed, coupled with the similarities in big time moves (Berhug-anklelock, F-5-angleslam, Moonsault-shooting star press), the obvious basic psychological elements (Brock working over the ribs, Angle chopping the monster down and setting up the anklelock), and some fabulous well-laid out matwork that they continue to sequence back into would have made for a great match considering the workers.

 

In the NWO match, they were trying to keep the two from coming to real blows as possible.

 

As for Kendrick, Angle treated him like a joke because he was a joke. They wouldn't have done the same thing with Brock.

[Guest Will Scarlet]

I give it a 5. I enjoyed it, but it was entirely forgettable.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

No, but it established the personality/character traits that could have been used in the feud.

 

Brock vs. Angle is a bookers wet dream. Which is why I gave the WWE the confidence that I tend to never give them to do it right. Because Patterson, Brisco, Ace, JR etc. wouldn't let what happened with Jericho/HHH happen here.

[Guest Anglesault]

Because Patterson, Brisco, Ace, JR etc. wouldn't let what happened with Jericho/HHH happen here.

Well, then who the hell did? And Brian if you read this month's Raw magazine (Even WWF) Your plan WAS the plan. Someone changed it to this. Why?

 

And Rick, how can three weeks of good build lead to an excellent feud? Point a feud out to me that had THIS kind of beginning, and then three weeks of decent writing that was excellent.

[The Dames 0]

Jesus, 'Sault. Typos much?

 

Note: JesusSault...I like it.

 

Dames

Edited March 7, 2003 by The Dames

[Guest Brian]

I had a damn fine booked feud before the face turn. It was so golden. Brock would have just refused to defend the title to give him time off during the injury back then. Even after beating the Big Show as a semi-face, I still could have shoved it in the fans face that he was a cocky young asshole and Angle was more of a working class guy. And the whole feud would have been so beautiful. Someday I'll map out the entire thing I had because it would have probably drawn in the end.

 

Even with the reversed rolls I still did a decent job. Tougher, but the same basic storylines, and I still could have pulled it off up until the SmackDown before No Way Out. After that, it was obvious that Heyman had booked the feud (and the SmackDown six) in an attempt to save his ass.

[Guest Anglesault]

Note: JesusSault...I like it.

Yeah, you're going to hell for that one.

[Guest Anglesault]

By the way, here is the quote I've been looking for for MONTHS to express my feelings on it. Points if you can gues the movie. (I modified the quot to fit the feud, changing "her" to "it")

 

I hated it so... much... it... it... the... it... the... flames... flames... flames... on the side of my face... breathing... breathless... heaving breaths...

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Just ONE video package can get someone hyped for a match. I recall the HHH/Hogan video package shown right before their backlash match that actually made me want to get it (of course, soon after my sense of rationality kicked in, so I didn't.)

 

Austin/Rock from 99 is probably the closest thing that could compare.

[Guest Anglesault]

Just ONE video package can get someone hyped for a match

Can. Operative word.

 

You would seriously book horseshit for two months and then bet the farm on a video package? That's a HUGE gamble there. Last resort, yes. A Video package can help whatever they have to do now. But don't plan on a video package saving a bad feud. Book the feud well before you hit that point.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I agree, I'm just saying there are ways to hype up a feud. I'm not saying that it would have gone that way and I am not saying that it would have worked. I am just saying it could have.

 

My reasoning is based on the fact that a lot of the time the WWE builds up their main events on 2 weeks notice and half the time they can pull it out. I feel whenever a feud gets 4 weeks of build that it seems like it's been built up for months in comparison to what the WWE usually does. That's why I say by the 3rd week, if things don't change, it's screwed. Of course, it's already screwed due to the injury.

[Guest Anglesault]

My reasoning is based on the fact that a lot of the time the WWE builds up their main events on 2 weeks notice and half the time they can pull it out. I feel whenever a feud gets 4 weeks of build that it seems like it's been built up for months in comparison to what the WWE usually does. That's why I say by the 3rd week, if things don't change, it's screwed. Of course, it's already screwed due to the injury.

But none of those feuds have a month and a half of baggage.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

A month and a half of baggage can be solved by a big beat down - or 3 weeks of beat downs. It's whatever is freshest in the fans' minds that they remember the most going into the match.

 

"Brock was really strong before, but then something happened and now Angle is strong and Brock is weak... which way will the match go".

[Guest EricMM]

AS that movie is Clue, w/ Mrs. White.

 

The fued was not good because of all that promised "awsome wrestling" I certainly never saw any of it. And if you blame Kurt for getting hurt, I blame WWE for trying to draw the supposed god match out forever. What ever happened to topping the previous match? The fued was one sided and stupid IMO.

[Guest Anglesault]

AS that movie is Clue, w/ Mrs. White.

One of my favorite movies ever, BTW.